moosed, I know many career D.C. people. Some that move near the highest circles. The kind where they take cool, arms length iPhone snapshots of sitting in the limo with Obama or Clinton. I know they aren't really in the inner circles, though, because such snapshots still thrill them. They know it, too.

For a living I work for a non-profit that is active in policy at the ground level with several federal agencies and community based organizations. I am ~far~ from doing nothing. I just know that most of those who actually are making policy in D.C. aren't the least qualified to do so, they are the most powerful and that ~is~ the qualification. Hell, most of them aren't even elected officials. To most Americans the elected officials seem the least qualified because they seem to make decisions that we don't understand. They must just be stupid and uniformed.

Follow the money, the power, and the decision all make sense. They just aren't ~right~ according to what we were taught government is supposed to do. Decisions in D.C. are not made based on what is right. Every single one of them is made based on calculus of power - and then they figure out how to convince us that it is right or blame their political opponents if we think it was wrong. If there is no way to paint it nicely or as overtly partisan then we are distracted with other things (Gay Marriage! Flag Burning! Terrorists!!!) while they go ahead and do it anyway.

Petitioning for policy change at the highest level is the equivalent to doing nothing because it will not work. My opinion is completely irrelevant unless it reflects a much larger, threatening groundswell of public opinion. So far, they've been really good about deflating any such groundswells before they get too urgent. They're really good at that.

So I don't bother. Its not tacit approval or complacency, its not even hopelessness. Its conservation of energy.

edit: Jl808 - Absolutely correct. That is essentially the spirit behind the phrase "Think Globally, Act Locally" and "All Politics are Local." Its pretty much the only power we really have and it is ~really~ hard work. Community is ~ugly~ stuff if you really include everyone. Most don't - and thus their "community" work, their "movements" have very little staying power or larger effect. If you can actually unify and motivate a whole community around a subject... those in D.C. sit up and take notice. Quickly.

Elected officials are even more trapped in the matrix of power than we are. The will of the people, if it can be articulated in a clear, unified way, is their only defense against it.

Others, like Rand and Ron Paul, stick to their ideals and do not engage that matrix of power. As a result they don't really accomplish all that much other than making a point and are more or less ridiculed by the mainstream for their "outlandish" points of view.

Sad, isn't it?

Feinstein, for all that we tend to demonize her, is another one of the more or less powerless ones. She's a canned package,a broken record, that sticks to her ideals and doesn't engage the matrix of power as much as others, at least not at the national level. She quietly plays her part when needed, though. The NDAA passed with a 94% vote, did it not?

As a result she doesn't accomplish much of her own agenda. The first AWB was rammed through not because she is influential but (I think) because it was a test to see how Americans would take it. It didn't go well and that experiment need not be repeated - and so her AWB never even made it to the floor. Not the right time for it.

.................For one, do you agree that the Benghazi coverup is worse than Watergate?

Second, do you think that the fall out will affect the administration in such a way that Obama might face some sort of catastrophic consequence?

Personally, I agree that the cover up is worse than Watergate simply because I agree with the opinion that this cover up resulted in the deaths of Americans.  But I'm not so sure that what transpires, in regard to the consequences of the upcoming hearing, will be great enough to warrant any criminal charges against the likes of Obama or Hillary, or anyone in the State Department for that matter, besides Susan Rice who seems to be the scapegoat in all of this.  Again, you have the separate factions of government pointing the finger at each other, much like the recent Boston bombing incident.  Who's gonna get the bus driven over their back this time?

Thoughts?

Do I think the Benghazi thing is worse than Watergate................tough one but no I do not.  Watergate was about trying to sway the vote of America and rig the election of the President.  That in turn affects foreign policy, domestic policy............could have affected internal crime etc.  If/when you can control who the President is you control everything including coverups.

Do I think this will cause the current administration to fall.  No I do not.  Hillary is already out of office with probably the intent on running for President in the next election.  What is frightening is if she is not/was not held accountable as Sec of State what does that mean if she becomes President?  At first I thought she was falling on her sword for the administration.  I now think it's about staying out of the public eye so she can craft her election platform and make a run at becoming President.

Criminal charges..............I don't know if we should go so far as that.  This was definitely mismanagement, but compared to Gun Walker the timeframe was quite compressed.  Mistakes happen all the time and we don't want this to filter down to the ranks where every soldier becomes a target for someone who is upset because their loved ones have died.  Given there are times when this should happen, but IMHO this would open the door for massive and widespread litigation.

Do I think the Benghazi thing is worse than Watergate................tough one but no I do not.  Watergate was about trying to sway the vote of America and rig the election of the President.  That in turn affects foreign policy, domestic policy............could have affected internal crime etc.  If/when you can control who the President is you control everything including coverups.

Do I think this will cause the current administration to fall.  No I do not.  Hillary is already out of office with probably the intent on running for President in the next election.  What is frightening is if she is not/was not held accountable as Sec of State what does that mean if she becomes President?  At first I thought she was falling on her sword for the administration.  I now think it's about staying out of the public eye so she can craft her election platform and make a run at becoming President.

Criminal charges..............I don't know if we should go so far as that.  This was definitely mismanagement, but compared to Gun Walker the timeframe was quite compressed.  Mistakes happen all the time and we don't want this to filter down to the ranks where every soldier becomes a target for someone who is upset because their loved ones have died.  Given there are times when this should happen, but IMHO this would open the door for massive and widespread litigation.

At some point, our elected representatives and administrators (not leaders) are to be held accountable for their failures and crimes.  If there are backlashes, repercussions, or detrimental consequences, they are not the result of outing the wrongs.  They are the direct result of the illegal or incompetent acts of those in office and their appointees.  Sometimes you have to go through a little pain before you can begin to heal.  ignoring the problem only allows it to fester and become even worse.

This was definitely mismanagement, but compared to Gun Walker the timeframe was quite compressed.  Mistakes happen all the time and we don't want this to filter down to the ranks where every soldier becomes a target for someone who is upset because their loved ones have died.  Given there are times when this should happen, but IMHO this would open the door for massive and widespread litigation.

Mismanagement?  An order was issued to stand down.  There were personnel ready to fly and the top brass chose to abandon American citizens on American soil.  Drone pilots were commanded not to fly armed drones.  These weren't just some grunts.  These were special forces and an American Ambassador.  On top of that, worried that this would affect the outcome of the election, and the fact that according to Obama, the war on terror is over, they lied about it, tried to cover it up and blame a basically non-existent YouTube video.  My personal opinion, but I think mismanagement is a gross understatement.

Mismanagement?  An order was issued to stand down.  There were personnel ready to fly and the top brass chose to abandon American citizens on American soil.  Drone pilots were commanded not to fly armed drones.  These weren't just some grunts.  These were special forces and an American Ambassador.  On top of that, worried that this would affect the outcome of the election, and the fact that according to Obama, the war on terror is over, they lied about it, tried to cover it up and blame a basically non-existent YouTube video.  My personal opinion, but I think mismanagement is a gross understatement.

sad fact---- no one will be held accountable for this OR one of them will fall on their sword and make it go away for the rest.  If I did this at my job, guess what?  Yup---FIRED!

At some point, our elected representatives and administrators (not leaders) are to be held accountable for their failures and crimes.  If there are backlashes, repercussions, or detrimental consequences, they are not the result of outing the wrongs.  They are the direct result of the illegal or incompetent acts of those in office and their appointees.  Sometimes you have to go through a little pain before you can begin to heal.  ignoring the problem only allows it to fester and become even worse.

I do agree that the elected officials need to be held accountable.  The question is what is accountable for some may not be for others.

Mismanagement?  An order was issued to stand down.  There were personnel ready to fly and the top brass chose to abandon American citizens on American soil.  Drone pilots were commanded not to fly armed drones.  These weren't just some grunts.  These were special forces and an American Ambassador.  On top of that, worried that this would affect the outcome of the election, and the fact that according to Obama, the war on terror is over, they lied about it, tried to cover it up and blame a basically non-existent YouTube video.  My personal opinion, but I think mismanagement is a gross understatement.

I do applaud the men on the ground for having the guts to go in, but it's not always the right choice.  I do not have experience in military matters of this sort so what I say and without knowledge of what actually was happening and the timing that it was happening...............you get the point.

What I do know is construction.  When discussing confined space issues we always tell the guys if something happens you do not under circumstances jump in the hole, the trench, into the tank, etc. to help someone.  This is because you do not know the conditions that have led to someone passing out, etc.  This is backed up by the fact that as more people are injured/killed going in to help people than if they were to stand back.  This is why I say there was definite mismanagement, but sending in 10, 20, 30 people in after the fact could have meant 4 + 10 + 20 + 30 people being killed.

As the facts and timeline come out, then we can make an informed decision as to if people should be punished and to what extent.

.

Looks like it finally made the MSM and the White House is scrambling. The press beat up Carney.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/10/white-house-scrambles-to-contain-benghazi-gate-fallout/

Looks like it finally made the MSM and the White House is scrambling. The press beat up Carney.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/05/10/white-house-scrambles-to-contain-benghazi-gate-fallout/

                                

Nothing but the truth....

The even worse crime is my belief that the POTUS is in a position because many people in the DNC and the Hawaii Health Dept have covered up the backround an ineligible Marxist community organizer who is totally unqualified to make life and death decisions and allowed 4 Americans to be killed in order to perpetuate a HUGE LIE... These people ALL have the BLOOD on their hands.

Conspiracy Theorist Body Count:
Obama: 4
Bush Jr: 2900+ (depending on if the conspiracy body count includes the 2 ensuing wars.)

Seriously, you all sound ~exactly~ like Democrats from 11 years ago.

Conspiracy Theorist Body Count:
Obama: 4
Bush Jr: 2900+ (depending on if the conspiracy body count includes the 2 ensuing wars.)

Seriously, you all sound ~exactly~ like Democrats from 11 years ago.

First of all, the conspiracy is real.  It's being brought to light this past week.  So, it's not a "theory."

Second, Bush never lied about what was happening in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.  We had embedded journalists reporting on the facts.

How many journalists have been reporting on Benghazi that don't have "FOX" next to their names?

The conspiracy is between the administration and the lame stream media.

Conspiracy Theorist Body Count:
Obama: 4
Bush Jr: 2900+ (depending on if the conspiracy body count includes the 2 ensuing wars.)

Seriously, you all sound ~exactly~ like Democrats from 11 years ago.

Shouldn't Obama have 5 for the American citizen he took out with a drone strike?

One could argue that you think that because you don't like Obama.

That's exactly what I argued to the democrats: they believed the various "evidence" of any number of conspiracies BECAUSE they didn't like Bush.

Did the state department censor information about the attacks? Yes. Did they do so for their own benefit? Yes.That's politics and not (necessarily) a conspiracy. Did they do so because they didn't want the public to find out they had willfully allowed 4 Americans to die because they didn't want something even more sinister to get out? Well, maybe, but there is zero hard evidence of that so far. If you believe there is hard evidence please see my first sentence.

BUD: Prolly. We can throw in a few more just for good measure, too.

edit: Holy crap! Bush never lied?! Wow. Just... wow. Not touching that with a 10 foot pole other than to say we went to war in Afghanistan because a group of (mostly Saudi) terrorists pulled of a heinous attack on us, then we went to war with Iraq because they wouldn't show us WMD's that they didn't have and many Americans supported it because they thought Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11. You just don't think of what the Bush Administration said as lies because you agreed with the outcomes. They were lies in the same way this Benghazi BS is lies: they were wilfull distortions of the truth.