I think monkey dances used to be less dangerous as people back then were probably more averse to taking someone's life.

I don't have a link to the actual study, but back before the WWII era (?), the US Army found that their soldiers at war were purposely missing their enemies because they didn't want to take another person's life. The US Army realized that they had a problem, so they had to institute a system that desensitizes the soldiers and take away the internal blocks that made soldiers hesitate in shooting the enemy.

Unfortunately, this same desensitization techniques that the US Army used on the soldiers are now also being used on our kids both through violent imagery on TV or with violent computer games. Since this has been happening for many generation, I believe we have several generations of kids and young adults now that have little or no inhibition in taking someone's life. 

I don't want to paint too broad a stroke but some of these guys are probably serving as soldiers and LEOs now.  I can understand why for soldiers as soldiers are meant for offense.  But LEOs are meant for defense and for keeping the peace.  Kinda concerning when a LEO's first thought (and not the last option) to a situation is to shoot the suspect instead of talking to them first.  Maybe this is not true so much in Hawaii, but perhaps it explains the 100+ bullet holes on the two ladies blue truck mistaken by LAPD for Dorner's truck.

One thing for sure, this desensitization makes our criminals more dangerous.

When the internal blocks against taking someone's life are removed from kids and young adults these days, doesn't that create a more dangerous society?

[edit] just so you know I am not making this up, here is an article on this written by retired US Army Lt Col Dave Grossman titled "Trained to Kill": http://www.killology.com/art_trained_methods.htm

You're right about this. 

Evolve? AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FO DAT!

Love me some Sweet Brown!

Video quality is doo doo, but it has been released.

http://www.khon2.com/2013/07/10/prosecutors-show-surveillance-video-in-deedy-murder-trial/

The video with the other angle shows something that wasn't on the first video.. where Deedy goes up to the sitting Elderts and "talks" with him. 

Again, not sure what was said that night at that McDonalds but the moment 2 people decide to engage in a stupid "monkey dance", one can no longer really be saying that they were acting in self defense.

Did Deedy identify himself as a LEO to Elderts?  What would a LEO have said?

In the use of deadly force, one should show that there were no other options for avoiding, escaping or de-escalating the situation.  If Deedy was involved in escalating the situation, then self defense argument is a no go.  If he was drunk, then his judgment would be impaired and not fit for duty. 

Like mnpfamily, I also would like to know what is SOP for the aftermath of investigating officers involved in a fatal shooting.  Drug test? Alcohol test?  If an off-duty HPD officer was in Deedy's place, what kind of process would he have had to undergo?

[edit] woohoo!  1000th post!   

I watched the video a few times, but it looks like after the "first round" deedy is on the ground and elders is walking away.
I assume something more was said, which is perhaps why elders returned, which played out in round "2", the counter situation and deedy reaching for his gun.


My assumption, not saying its right or wrong, just what I think happened is deedy caught cracks, keep running his mouth and elders was gonna give him more cracks.
I've seen it before, one monkey loses the dance, but keeps running their mouth, and catches more cracks, in the second and third round.

It seems to me that Deedy was the one that instigated the fight when he confronted a sitting down Elderts. Then when both men were standing instead of trying to descalate the situation and walk away from Elderts when he had the opertunity he tried to give Elderts a little kick which lead to Elderts taking him down.I'm sure if Elderts wanted to he could of ground and pounded Deedy right there but he got up and walked away and like what bass monkey said Deedy probably started running his mouth more which lead to the tragic ending.

That's exactly what it looks like.

Elderts is talking with/possibly harassing the guy next to him at the counter while ordering.
Deedy goes to guy that was next to Elderts and talks to him.
Deedy then approaches Elderts ( while his girlfirend is trying to stop him ) while Elderts is just sitting at his table and says something. Hoping to be knight in shining armor/intimidate Elderts.
Most likely offensive as Elderts gets up. Fightin' words. 
Monkey dance ensues, more fightin' words are said and Elderts drops Deedy.
In the local spirit of up and up,  Elderts steps off.
Deedy gets up and runs his mouth again, which locally, moke mentality,  requires a round 2.
Round 2 ends tragically.
Not really self defense.

Yeah, I don't think self defense will fly. But because his attorney has claimed "self defense", he is automatically admitting guilt.  However, he will have a hard time defending and justifying his use of force since he seemed to have had several opportunities to walk away or diffuse the situation.  Worse for him if he actually escalated the situation.

His only other recourse now then is about being a LEO. My question then is this.. If it was a local off-duty LEO in his place, what would the local off-duty LEO have done in that situation?  What would the SOP be for reviewing the incident and would a local LEO be justified in the shooting?

My question then is this.. If it was a local off-duty LEO in his place, what would the local off-duty LEO have done in that situation?  What would the SOP be for reviewing the incident and would a local LEO be justified in the shooting?

If it was a local off duty police officer, the videos would have never been made public, an "internal" investigation would be done.
Then a HPD rep would hold a press conference claiming that the shooting is justified.

Don't you remember a similar situation occurred recently in waimanalo where an unarmed guy "resisted" and was beat to death.

What happened to the officer that killed that guy?

Good point, KK.  Goooood point.

The Waimanalo guy was the guy who was standing next to a stolen vehicle and got hog-tied by HPD? 

This one?  The one that didn't suffer any "assaultive" injuries?
http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/20130604_Investigation_started_into_incident_that_leaves_man_unresponsive.html?id=210196521

Good point, KK.  Goooood point.

The Waimanalo guy was the guy who was standing next to a stolen vehicle and got hog-tied by HPD?

Yup.

In my opinion, if Deedy identified himself as a LEO, he walks.

I've personally witnessed off duty LEO's beat the shit out of other people at bars or clubs.

None of them were ever arrested, charged or convicted of anything.

I'm not saying if its right or wrong, just stating what I have first hand knowledge of.

I don't know man Angle 2 to me looks like Deedy was trying to de-escalate the fight by the garbage can (they pounding on dark shorts guy) then Elderts knocks him to the ground and returns to garbage can fight.  Deedy gets up and again intervenes when the monkey dance truly begins and bang bang bang.  The original fight never stopped and ended up out the door too. 

Skinny jeans hipster at the counter in the very beginning key witness.  I can guess the words exchanged already but all will become public eventually.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

I'm not sure.. to me, de-escalating means calming both persons down or saying something like "c'mon man.  let's go."

Things like "oh yeah?  you like beef?"  or something like "are you sure you want to get shot?" isn't de-escalation.

I'm not really sure what was said by both at that night.  What is important right now is what Deedy said, since Elderts is already dead.

I'm not sure.. to me, de-escalating means calming both persons down or saying something like "c'mon man.  let's go."

Things like "oh yeah?  you like beef?"  or something like "are you sure you want to get shot?" isn't de-escalation.

I'm not really sure what was said by both at that night.  What is important right now is what Deedy said, since Elderts is already dead.

From a professional stand point, "Do you want to get shot?" Is certainly de-escalation.  Officers will threaten the use of force to get an individual to back down, normally this is done with tasers / oc etc. by the time a gun comes into play it's probably SHTF lol.   It's pretty similar to the "Stop or I will shoot." That's really all that is being said.

Thanks for clarifying Chris.  I suppose we really should wait to hear more about what transpired that night since there is no audio in the video footage.

I admit I was superimposing my own dialogue in that silent movie.

For all we know, they could be arguing about who gets the upstairs River Street special door prize or perhaps there was a gay lover's quarrel among the three.  :shrug:

 

1) someone said racism got nothing to do with this. BS! Local haole hating is by definition racism, and it is pervasively culturally acceptable; just as that towards southern Christians is, evidenced by the rampant ubiquitous use of redneck, trailer-trash, etc, in mainland language. Everyone in HI knows this, locals and ESPECIALLY haole!  Just know, that regardless of the facts - if I can borrow that Liz idiot's sentiment - if a white guy was in an altercation with a black LEO and witnesses stated he called the LEO an f'ing n'ggah, there would be no trial - prosecution would not have brought charges. Racism towards blacks is unacceptable; that towards whites (mainland) and haole (HI) is acceptable, and decidedly explicable and justified - thanks libs!

2) for the record, Deedy was devoid of good judgement - drunk OR sober - for approaching Elderts. By that, he absolutely helped precipitate the confrontation, but he did not initiate the violence; HI self defense laws state that initiating violence will disallow you self defense protections, but approaching Elderts was not initiating violence. 

3) Now.....If a uniformed or off-duty HPD officer approached Elderts, he likely would have chilled out; that's just how it is. Either of those LEO's would most likely have commanded compliance from Elderts. But even if Deedy identified himself as a federal agent, I would not have expected Elderts to respond with any thought process other than....'who gives a shit! You're not a cop; you got no business telling me shit! This ain't a crime scene; there's no investigation going on; who are you to tell me anything!'  That's just reality; a drunk troublemaker should not be expected to comply with other than HPD - I wouldn't expect that if I was a federal LEO!

4) assuming Deedy would be intuitive enough to know a drunk troublemaking local (he was warned about us LOCALS!) would not take kindly to a mainland haole telling him to chill, Deedy would have known Elderts would have done nothing but not let himself look like a punk, and therefore respond with aggression. By this, Deedy put himself in a situation wherein he would have been 'justified' in using his firearm in self defense. That's bad judgement!

Same as with a private CC citizen. Even if a guy is harassing other people, why would I try to tell him to leave people alone knowing full well he would react to me with aggression, thus putting my self in a position to use my firearm!?  I wouldn't, and Deedy should have been expected to be just as wise.

5) so was it legal self defense?  Yes.  Did Deedy unnecessarily put himself in a position to use his firearm? Yes. Bad judgement? Yes, but likely not innocently; maybe just a little bit of that tough guy LEO thing going on....I think so.

 

Sorry Moosed, I didn't realize that by voicing an opinion like everyone else, and by rhetorically observing how differently prosecutors react to similar cases depending on the race of those involved, was equivalent to asserting there shouldn't be a trial.