2aHawaii
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: mrgaf on November 25, 2015, 09:50:37 PM
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Mods, if this is the wrong place to post this, please move, my apologies.....
Grand kids and their parents are visiting from California. Went to KHSC today to teach the kids how to shoot. One is 13 the other 10 and both would be shooting 22's. Prior to leaving for the range I ran both thru the NRA rifle course and went over all the regs for the range had then both read the rules at the range and they signed in. Had my grandson on the line with me directly alongside of him, gun unloaded and was going over sight alignment and, once again, firearms safety. One of the RSO's approached me (the old fart with the grey hair) and asked me how old he was. Told him 10. Then he asked me if he attended the Hunter Safety Course, told him no. I asked why was he asking me these questions since all the conditions for him to shoot had been met IAW the range rules. He said that he needed to attend a hunter safety course to shoot there. Promptly told him that was NOT correct and to show me where it stated that. He started to get a little perturbed about me questioning him and telling him to show me where it said that (he never did). I then advised him that I am a certified NRA instructor in ALL disciplines as well as a former Master Instructor with the Hawaii Hunter Education program (quit in 2007 due to health reasons) as well as being an NRA Certified RSO and RSO trainer and said "is there any more doubt about my quals? Is so I'd be happy to show him my cert card from the NRA. I also told him I do not appreciate him "making his own rules" and that if he persisted with this than his superiors would be contacted immediately. After that he walked away BUT conferred with the other RSO (tall fella with whom I have had previous run in with concerning his attitude and conduct as an RSO. I decided to continue mentoring my grandson. I noticed the tall RSO standing in back of me watching how I was teaching and was probably just waiting for a screw up, which never occurred. After awhile he too gave up and walked away.
What is going on with these two fools? I've heard they are jerks but I refuse to pass judgement until I see it or experience it with my own eyes. After my experience today, it appears these rumors are true. Sure he has a right to ask me how old he is, can I prove he is 10, ensure he is shooting a 22 but goes overboard with the rest. Am I missing something? Per the KHSC website, my grandson met all the age requirements as well as the 22 meeting the firearm caliber requirement and he having him and the firearm under direct control at all times (I directly beside him and crouched down to his level being no more than inches away from the firearm and him at any given time).
Sorry for the long post and it being a little on the rant side but this really has me irked. I plan on writing to the Mayor's office as well and the parks department. I will get the name of the RSO involved and submit it in both letters. Will also have a conversation the Mike Muramoto about this.
Looking for everyone's honest opnion... Thanks! :wtf: >:(
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Mods, if this is the wrong place to post this, please move, my apologies.....
Grand kids and their parents are visiting from California. Went to KHSC today to teach the kids how to shoot. One is 13 the other 10 and both would be shooting 22's. Prior to leaving for the range I ran both thru the NRA rifle course and went over all the regs for the range had then both read the rules at the range and they signed in. Had my grandson on the line with me directly alongside of him, gun unloaded and was going over sight alignment and, once again, firearms safety. One of the RSO's approached me (the old fart with the grey hair) and asked me how old he was. Told him 10. Then he asked me if he attended the Hunter Safety Course, told him no. I asked why was he asking me these questions since all the conditions for him to shoot had been met IAW the range rules. He said that he needed to attend a hunter safety course to shoot there. Promptly told him that was NOT correct and to show me where it stated that. He started to get a little perturbed about me questioning him and telling him to show me where it said that (he never did). I then advised him that I am a certified NRA instructor in ALL disciplines as well as a former Master Instructor with the Hawaii Hunter Education program (quit in 2007 due to health reasons) as well as being an NRA Certified RSO and RSO trainer and said "is there any more doubt about my quals? Is so I'd be happy to show him my cert card from the NRA. I also told him I do not appreciate him "making his own rules" and that if he persisted with this than his superiors would be contacted immediately. After that he walked away BUT conferred with the other RSO (tall fella with whom I have had previous run in with concerning his attitude and conduct as an RSO. I decided to continue mentoring my grandson. I noticed the tall RSO standing in back of me watching how I was teaching and was probably just waiting for a screw up, which never occurred. After awhile he too gave up and walked away.
What is going on with these two fools? I've heard they are jerks but I refuse to pass judgement until I see it or experience it with my own eyes. After my experience today, it appears these rumors are true. Sure he has a right to ask me how old he is, can I prove he is 10, ensure he is shooting a 22 but goes overboard with the rest. Am I missing something? Per the KHSC website, my grandson met all the age requirements as well as the 22 meeting the firearm caliber requirement and he having him and the firearm under direct control at all times (I directly beside him and crouched down to his level being no more than inches away from the firearm and him at any given time).
Sorry for the long post and it being a little on the rant side but this really has me irked. I plan on writing to the Mayor's office as well and the parks department. I will get the name of the RSO involved and submit it in both letters. Will also have a conversation the Mike Muramoto about this.
Looking for everyone's honest opnion... Thanks! :wtf: >:(
Welcome to Hawaii, where everyone thinks they are the master of the universe and gets all f'ing butt hurt when you prove them wrong.
I've had some BS encounters with the RSOs as well; telling me that I needed to have a shell catch, and when I told him to show me where it says that in the rules, get all pissy and threaten to kick me off the range.
This is why I wish it was like BI or the mainland: just go into the boonies to the makeshift range, exercise some common sense and enjoy yourself without all the BS that comes with the micromanaging taking place at KHSC
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Kvetching here is fine, but largely therapeutic and not productive. Maybe filing complaints with the C&C would be a good step? Sure, one complaint will probably go unnoticed, but I bet it doesn't take very many at all to get the attention of someone a little farther up the food chain.
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The cool RSOs left. Stephen the person that made the unofficial KHSC website is gone.
Most of these new RSOs have a different character. SOme of them just flat out kick people out (ahem pistol side)
But these RSOs have to deal with all kinds of shooters of varying backgrounds, personalities and attitudes.
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If you're talking about the KHSC info page, it's not 100% accurate. I think the hours during the week are different now so some of the info may be a couple of years out of date. I do believe the rules for the rifle range are posted next to the RSO'S office on either the clipboard when you sign in or on the bulletin board next to the sign in table.
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Not sure if it's the same guy, but almost every time I go to KHSC rifle side, there is a taller, darker, wears a ball cap, old guy that stands behind me and watches me shoot. He once made me dry fire my rifle to see if I was flinching. He also pointed out, that there was a cap on my muzzle that could be unscrewed to reveal a threaded barrel on my bolt action 308win. He then told me that they make muzzle brakes for rifles if they have a threaded barrels like mine did. I'm thinking in my head WTF!, but I let him finish his "mentoring". I don't think he does it to the old retirees that shoot there. On the weekdays I'm usually the youngest guy there so maybe I'm a red flag?
Besides that one guy the other RSOs have always treated me fair and friendly. Whenever I go to KHSC I am expecting him to treat me like it's my first time fondling a rifle, so it kinda prepares me if it does happen. Maybe he is that way after dealing with unsafe shooters through the years.
Wonder why the RSO told you Hunters Ed was required.
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I miss the voice and demeanor of the guy that passed away and the young guy who set the hill on fire with the flare gun. He was really helpful when I first took my kids.
9 years old, 22 caliber good to go was my understanding.
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Having to deal with people like that and only being able to shoot paper targets was why I rarely went to the range when I lived on Oahu. When I moved to the Big Island, I looked for a place where I could set up my own range. Now I just walk out to my backyard and shoot to my heart's content at silhouettes, plastic bottles filled with water, wood blocks etc. I regularly hear gunshots coming from neighboring properties as well and a couple of the neighbors I met told me, "We watch out for each other out here and we like neighbors with guns". I couldn't ask for a better gun friendly neighborhood. I love it here.
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Children 9-12 must be supervised by an adult and are limited to 22lr. Ages 9-12 may shoot center fire if a Certified Hunter Education card is provided.
Over the years, there have been several parents lying about the ages of the children at the range. Sometimes it's very easy to tell whether the child is of age, sometimes it isn't.
Koko Head has a zero-tolerance policy on the rules. The pistol ROs do excuse a lot more persons for safety violations than the rifle side, particularly due to the nature of and ease of swinging a shorter barrel.
Today, someone was excused for loading more than five rounds, shooting into the berm with no target frame, sweeping the left of the line (he was on the far right position), and finally, pointing a gun with a closed slide at the RO.
Each violation included a warning, for a total of four warnings, with the shooter talking back each time.
I understand people have issues with the ROs at times. However, they have to understand that the ROs don't hover or fabricate things out of the blue. The 9-12 22LR rule is posted near each sign-in station.
I know the ROs on-duty today and will refer this post to the range master.
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I've had someone rack their slide with their pistol side ways facing me a couple times. They don't even know what they'd did wrong a lot. I wouldn't want to be a RSO that's for sure. Even marines who are grilled in and out about their weapons 24/7 have tons of negligent discharges. I think is just human nature for a percentage of us to be bone heads.
In a sense, this is why it's necessary to have ROs. Keep in mind, we must always be cognizant that this range can/will be shutdown should a serious incident occur.
A few months ago, a pistol shooter pointed a gun at a RO and pulled the trigger. The gun went off, but did not fire, because the RO wedged the web of his hand into the hammer and disarmed the shooter with the assistance of another RO.
The gun was cleared and a round ejected. Had that RO, or any other range user, been killed, we have been informed that the range would shutdown permanently.
Range users need to keep in mind that ROs deal with EVERYONE throughout the day. The RO may or may not know you, but most likely, a rules violator is someone who is unfamiliar, and should be approached with caution and expeditiously, especially if muzzle sweeping. Unfortunately, that does translate into yelling.
Imagine having a loaded gun pointed at you four-six times a day, sometimes more. That's the life of an RO. Some of the methods differ from RO-to-RO, but as with everything, you build rapport and follow the rules, your range day is more enjoyable.
However, the most dangerous words are "I know," and the most dangerous item at the range is an "unloaded firearm." ROs are human and have good days and bad days. Keep in mind that they are ALL gun guys, and are working to ensure safety and that the rules are enforced as to ensure the range usage for all into perpetuity. We are all one serious injury away from losing the range entirely.
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I can sympathize with the RSO's sometimes. If something goes wrong blame might fall on them and there could be calls to close the range and I am sure they don't want the whole island blaming them for the closure of the only public range.
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I miss the voice and demeanor of the guy that passed away and the young guy who set the hill on fire with the flare gun. He was really helpful when I first took my kids.
9 years old, 22 caliber good to go was my understanding.
I believe you are referring to Sy. He had that voice that just pierced through my ear muffs. He made my wife cry one time when she came shooting with me. LOL
Most people didn't like him but I think he ran the range very well.
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...I don't think he does it to the old retirees that shoot there. ...
I know who you are referring to. Believe me, all of us old guys have had our run ins with this guy. Some more than others. And I have even been mentored by him once. I had a run in with him just recently. He was wrong. I let it go. Life goes on.
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A few months ago, a high ranking administrator from parks and rec was there investigating complaints about the RO.
I don't know if anything ever became of that.... I guess not.
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(http://45.media.tumblr.com/468db84836d27e1a21df896b337b176b/tumblr_n1tjsc5gSa1qems7ao2_500.gif)
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I believe you are referring to Sy. He had that voice that just pierced through my ear muffs. He made my wife cry one time when she came shooting with me. LOL
Most people didn't like him but I think he ran the range very well.
Yeah that's him.
He could make you crap your pants as a newbie.
It was a right of passage to get yelled at by Sy when you were just starting out.
But he ran a tight range.
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Yeah that's him.
He could make you crap your pants as a newbie.
It was a right of passage to get yelled at by Sy when you were just starting out.
But he ran a tight range.
Funny you mention the right of passage. The first time I was yelled at by him I took it a bit personally even though I was wrong. After realizing he did it a lot and to everyone I just let it slide off my shoulder. Every Sunday morning I would say good morning to him and he never responded. After about a year he finally started saying good morning back. And even once in a while we would talk story.
I watched him stand up to two brothers who were very irate because he kicked them off the range for not following his orders. He was trying to keep them safe and they didn't care. HPD was called and they were ticketed and escorted off the range. Sy was an old man and to watch him stand up to these two much younger guys was impressive. I gained a whole new respect for him and how he ran the range after that. He didn't take crap from anyone.
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Kvetching here is fine, but largely therapeutic and not productive. Maybe filing complaints with the C&C would be a good step? Sure, one complaint will probably go unnoticed, but I bet it doesn't take very many at all to get the attention of someone a little farther up the food chain.
Just venting I guess... there will be formal complaints filed with the parks department and the mayor's office as well. I know they are under a lot of pressure and have to deal with all sorts of people but I think their "authority" is going to their heads somewhat.......
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Sorry you had to deal with that experience.
Especially with your grandkids there.
Don't know what the whole hunter's ed thing was about.
9 years old, .22lr, close supervision was always the rule as far as I know.
They always encouraged my kids but this was a few to a couple of years ago.
Depends on the RSO I guess.
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The pistol range RO's make up their own rules. "You can not leave a loaded magazine on the table during a cease-fire"(not in the rules).
I was on the rifle range and a young RO came over from the pistol range that day, told me I couldn't leave a loaded magazine on the bench during a cease-fire.
I walked over to Mike and asked his opinion, he told me and the RO that a loaded magazine can be left on the bench.
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The pistol range RO's make up their own rules. "You can not leave a loaded magazine on the table during a cease-fire"(not in the rules).
I was on the rifle range and a young RO came over from the pistol range that day, told me I couldn't leave a loaded magazine on the bench during a cease-fire.
I walked over to Mike and asked his opinion, he told me and the RO that a loaded magazine can be left on the bench.
Not saying you are wrong or arguing. I just put them in my pocket. I just don't like the idea of my pistol, which needs to be left on the bench, being easily loaded up by who knows, while I'm down range.
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The pistol range RO's make up their own rules. "You can not leave a loaded magazine on the table during a cease-fire"(not in the rules).
I was on the rifle range and a young RO came over from the pistol range that day, told me I couldn't leave a loaded magazine on the bench during a cease-fire.
I walked over to Mike and asked his opinion, he told me and the RO that a loaded magazine can be left on the bench.
Rule #1 is know and obey all range commands.
Pistol range always instructs shooters to "remove all loaded magazines and target materials from the shooting bench" when a cease fire is called at the end of the relay. This is not required on the rifle side, but is a requirement on the pistol side.
Usually the persons who should heed the commands are those who don't and try to find excuses as to why later on. I've learned that sometimes it's too unreasonable to not have loaded mags near pistols when people are down range.
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If you have never been called out by an RSO at the KHSC range,
then you need to go shooting more often!
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Was at the pistol side last week and have not had bad interactions with ROs. I always put my mag, loaded or not in my pocket when I leave the firing line and cease fire. The ROs there seem to be alright.
Last time at rifle side was 2 months ago and did not get any negative interactions although once I was reminded to sign in and told not to leave a mag on the bench when I temporarily went to look for a broom. They did not come across as negative and I just followed what they said.
I think when someone wants to shoot standing and they don't know you, they will check you out for a while until their sure of muzzle control (just my observation).
I always go weekday about 1400 so I guess the atmosphere is more relaxed with ROs having to check on less shooters.
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Sorry you had to deal with that experience.
Especially with your grandkids there.
Don't know what the whole hunter's ed thing was about.
9 years old, .22lr, close supervision was always the rule as far as I know.
They always encouraged my kids but this was a few to a couple of years ago.
Depends on the RSO I guess.
Hunter Ed is required for 9-12 year olds shooting center fire. The firearm I was using was clearly a .22.....
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If you have never been called out by an RSO at the KHSC range,
then you need to go shooting more often!
How true it is!
Gordy
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The firearm I was using was clearly a .22.....
Yeah. That's why I don't know what the whole hunter Ed thing was about.
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Have nothing but respect for the RSOs. I've been scolded a few times but each time I deserved it. Slick in particular is a great guy.
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Some of the RSO's like to interject themselves into your business. I know exactly which guys you are talking about because I've had issues with them, not as bad as they were with you but issues nonetheless. If I'm not doing anything that violates the safety rules and I'm not asking for assistance then I don't need your input.
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Some of the RSO's like to interject themselves into your business. I know exactly which guys you are talking about because I've had issues with them, not as bad as they were with you but issues nonetheless. If I'm not doing anything that violates the safety rules and I'm not asking for assistance then I don't need your input.
Exactly! If the range supervisor decided to get off his okole and monitor his RSO's once in a while and reign them in when needed then all will be good. Fat chance that will ever happen though....
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Yeah. That's why I don't know what the whole hunter Ed thing was about.
Dunno... Maybe he and the other guy just wanted to show their "authority" (for lack of a better word....)
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Not saying you are wrong or arguing. I just put them in my pocket. I just don't like the idea of my pistol, which needs to be left on the bench, being easily loaded up by who knows, while I'm down range.
Agree 100% that's actually a common sense rule.
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Agree 100% that's actually a common sense rule.
You'd be surprised how many people, including some of those on this forum have issue with this rule and absolutely, positively NEED an explanation as to why it's required.
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Mrgaf.
I only have one question on for you. How'd your grandson lIke shooting? :thumbsup: hope the bad experience didn't ruin the day for you and your grandson.
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Slick is the man. Saw him dealing with a few people today. Seemed like there was a slight amount of friction, however, he calmed it down and everything was safe and fun. Might be a little bit of language barrier there. Lol.
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Mrgaf.
I only have one question on for you. How'd your grandson lIke shooting? :thumbsup: hope the bad experience didn't ruin the day for you and your grandson.
he had a great time. First time pulling the trigger but he did real good. Also had my granddaughter there 13 yo). She was pretty apprehensive at first but after the fist round was lit off, she loved it. Hindsight bring 20/20, what more could a grand father ask for? The incident did nothing to spoil thier day.... :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
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he had a great time. First time pulling the trigger but he did real good. Also had my granddaughter there 13 yo). She was pretty apprehensive at first but after the fist round was lit off, she loved it. Hindsight bring 20/20, what more could a grand father ask for? The incident did nothing to spoil thier day.... :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
Awesome and glad to hear!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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he had a great time. First time pulling the trigger but he did real good. Also had my granddaughter there 13 yo). She was pretty apprehensive at first but after the fist round was lit off, she loved it. Hindsight bring 20/20, what more could a grand father ask for? The incident did nothing to spoil thier day.... :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
The RO in question with the silver hair asked whether your grand kids took hunter ed because he mistook you for another shooter who he was helping originally and was trying to make small talk with you. Usually, if a child IS shooting center fire and is being questioned as a "corrective action," then the shooter or responsible adult is guided to the rules board to review the rules.
When the taller RO, who I admit, has a little more aggressive approach to enforcing the rules, came over to your bench, it was because the original RO and he HADN'T talked about whether your grand kids was or wasn't of age and had to do his own assessment. The fact that he hadn't said anything meant he didn't see anything wrong.
This seems like a complete misunderstanding. However, we never stop anyone from initiating complaints, there have been misunderstandings and complaints in the past. And every RO, as well as veteran range users, know that it's the RO's job to watch EVERY shooter utilizing the range at any given time.
It's really damned if you do, damned if you don't for ROs. They exist to make sure people do not leave with any additional holes in them, and sometimes--a lot of times--brings out the ego or what not in people.
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Yeah. That's why I don't know what the whole hunter Ed thing was about.
Especially since there is no firearms handling at the Hunter's Ed classes....so what benefit is it to have attended? Would said 9-12 year old shooting a center fire gun have learned anything that would have increased his ability to safely shoot a center fire gun? Nope!
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Especially since there is no firearms handling at the Hunter's Ed classes....so what benefit is it to have attended? Would said 9-12 year old shooting a center fire gun have learned anything that would have increased his ability to safely shoot a center fire gun? Nope!
I was wondering the same thing.............may be the former hunter ed master instructor could explain why. ???
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I was wondering the same thing.............may be the former hunter ed master instructor could explain why. ???
Maybe he could also explain why having loaded magazines on the bench is a problem on the pistol side and not the rifle side? Maybe he could also point out a comprehensive list of all of the range rules, just so everyone can be on the same page.
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I shoot pistol side the most and personally like the rule of not having loaded magazines next to a pistol when folks are down range. It only takes a few seconds for someone to grab someone else's firearm + magazine, load it and do something stupid.
It's like my own rule that when I clean my firearms or do any kind of maintenance, I make sure there are no ammo in the same room or at least in my workspace. Never had any ND so far with that rule followed.
Not required but as far as I know, RSOs are the authority on their range and what rules they implement folks should comply. As far as I know, this varies from RSO to RSO.
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RSOs are the authority on their range and what rules they implement folks should comply. As far as I know, this varies from RSO to RSO.
This isn't true.
The Rangemaster is the overseeing authority, and it is the responsibility of the RSOs to carry out his orders, not make up their own as to what they think should be happening.
That being said, it is therefore the fault of the Rangemaster to not post the exact rules up for all shooters to read and conform to, as well as the fact that the RSOs are not being corrected when implementing their own set of rules.
As far as the magazine rule goes, I also agree that no loaded magazines should be left near the firearm when the range is cold.
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Does anybody really read the rules and understand them. Very few. People don't read now days. You have to force feed them. Where is your curiosity, ask questions if not clear ask again. Rules change get added and so on. Ask questions. When you sweep the guy next to you, saying that its not in the rules will make no difference. I am glad the RSO's are there. If they prevent me from getting hurt cause you didn't read the rules of didn't ask, I am on their side. You all are forgetting who's house you are in. No cheese or bubble gum from me.
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Maybe he could also explain why having loaded magazines on the bench is a problem on the pistol side and not the rifle side?
From what I was told by a former supervisor, a tourist approached the bench and loaded a gun and shot himself in the head.
He could have easily loaded the gun and pointed down range and killed any number of people down range putting up targets.
Common sense would dictate that the long gun or rifleside benches are far enough away and spaced out that one would not be able to do the same with a long gun in the same amount of time as a pistol.
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^^^ remember that day well.........what a mess
1 more BIG THANKS to the ROs for working to keep things safe.
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From what I was told by a former supervisor, a tourist approached the bench and loaded a gun and shot himself in the head.
He could have easily loaded the gun and pointed down range and killed any number of people down range putting up targets.
Common sense would dictate that the long gun or rifleside benches are far enough away and spaced out that one would not be able to do the same with a long gun in the same amount of time as a pistol.
Wonder who would be responsible. I know you're at the range but you're not in charge of your weapon when you go down range. I have thought about it in the past but not in the sense of someone using your gun to shoot themselves. I thought that something might walk away.
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Does anybody really read the rules and understand them. Very few. People don't read now days. You have to force feed them. Where is your curiosity, ask questions if not clear ask again. Rules change get added and so on. Ask questions. When you sweep the guy next to you, saying that its not in the rules will make no difference. I am glad the RSO's are there. If they prevent me from getting hurt cause you didn't read the rules of didn't ask, I am on their side. You all are forgetting who's house you are in. No cheese or bubble gum from me.
With the number of rules, do's, don't's and informative tips a new user at KHSC needs, it bothers me that there is no formal training and orientation. The park seems to rely on Handgun Safety instructors, friends, family, and trial-error-get_yelled_at_by_RSO method of training.
I've been to ranges many times. Most have you at least read a list of rules, fill out an application including emergency contact info, and sign that you read them. Others go as far as having you watch a 15 minute video with safety, range rules, and facility info.
Once you complete the formal training, you are registered in the computer system and provided a range card as proof of training.
I've even seen other ranges on the mainland offer the training online, so you can do the registration and training ahead of your visit in case you have any questions about what to bring, what's allowed or prohibited, etc.
A little education goes a long way to increase both enjoyment and safety.
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my understanding was that the individual had mental issues and from what i heard was that the family was appologetic about the incident. the owner of the firearm was not the same after that.
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It really doesn't pay to be a RO. I wish everyone were required to cycle through in service to the community as a RO. However, as with this past Sunday, no matter how nice we speak to someone, the most effective (i.e. they remember and won't do it again) method is to yell at them in the act or just after the act. In this case, same individual handled a revolver to load it while people were down range.
Of course, he gave attitude back after correcting him twice. Politely after the first time, and getting yelled at the second time. I've found there's rarely a second time after receiving an over-the-PA warning a first time.
I hope I don't need to explain why we consider handling a firearm or anything on the shooting bench when people are down range is a big no-no.
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It really doesn't pay to be a RO. I wish everyone were required to cycle through in service to the community as a RO. However, as with this past Sunday, no matter how nice we speak to someone, the most effective (i.e. they remember and won't do it again) method is to yell at them in the act or just after the act. In this case, same individual handled a revolver to load it while people were down range.
Of course, he gave attitude back after correcting him twice. Politely after the first time, and getting yelled at the second time. I've found there's rarely a second time after receiving an over-the-PA warning a first time.
I hope I don't need to explain why we consider handling a firearm or anything on the shooting bench when people are down range is a big no-no.
Two words:
SHOCK COLLARS
:thumbsup:
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Two words:
SHOCK COLLARS
:thumbsup:
For the ROs or the Shooters?
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For the ROs or the Shooters?
Let's start with the shooters....
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Hey shock collars work. I still have mine on. The one my wife put on me years ago. I'm with the RSO's all the way. They can yell at me all day, can't hurt me. I am married......
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Maybe he could also explain why having loaded magazines on the bench is a problem on the pistol side and not the rifle side? Maybe he could also point out a comprehensive list of all of the range rules, just so everyone can be on the same page.
I'm the former Hunter Ed master instructor. Left the program in 2007 due to massive disagreement with management concerning the effectiveness of the firearms portion of the course both long guns and pistols. You are correct there was no hands on. What I would do is bring in some of my firearms and snap caps to demonstrate safe handling, how each of the actions listing the the course book worked and properly unloading each type of action ensuring that they were in fact unloaded. Was not permitted to let any student touch the firearm due to "liability" concerns. The program did have three or four confiscated firearms that were de-activated. The actions did not work well and did not contribute to the learning experience.
Quite a few years ago (thikn it was after the Uesugi incident) all Master HE instructors testified and gave opinions to the legislature about HPD accepting the HE course completion card and a qualification to purchase a handgun. Myself and three other instructors were against this. Our reasoning was anyone who would be teaching the handgun portion of the course had to be a qualified and current NRA instructor and that range time would be needed/required. That meant all students would have to comply but would have given them hands on. the DOCARE head at the time (who we fell under) disagreed and sided with the five other instructors who did not feel it was necessary and managed to thwart our efforts for a better program and ramrodded their ideas and got it approved. Sad day.
All that being said the Hunter ED program does have a program whereas students 9-12 and score better than a 90% on the final exam can apply to attend a 5 day/4 night camp, sponsored by the Safari Club and the Hunter ED program, on the big island. There was a shooting day where they fired 22's, shotguns and muzzleloaders, range safety, firearms handling and cleaning. After completing that protion, the following day they actually walked a small sporting clay course set up the the instructors to teach "shoot/don't shoot". other than that, no actual training other than classroom. The requirement that a child between the ages of 9-12 can shoot centerfire if they attended Hunter ED is somewhat of a stupid concept since they only ones with experience where the ones who attended the camp.
As for loaded pistol mags being removed from the bench during a cease fire is a very sound policy which I fully support. All it takes is one nut case, one pissed off individual etc to come onto the pistol range, grab a mag and a gun (normally laying next to the loaded mag on the bench and start firing. An ounce of prevention iw worth a pound of cure and that policy makes me feel safer as well.
Hope this clears things up.....
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From what I was told by a former supervisor, a tourist approached the bench and loaded a gun and shot himself in the head.
He could have easily loaded the gun and pointed down range and killed any number of people down range putting up targets.
Common sense would dictate that the long gun or rifleside benches are far enough away and spaced out that one would not be able to do the same with a long gun in the same amount of time as a pistol.
Sorry, but I disagree. It is not "common sense" that rules for loaded magazines should differ on the pistol side versus the rifle side. If anything, it should be the opposite because it would be much easier for someone on the rifle side to slap in a magazine and unload on those down range with a much more lethal weapon than a handgun, which would, taking into accounts from ranges across the nation, would much more likely be used for a suicide attempt.
But, your attitude of expecting everyone to know the rules because they are "common sense" is the very reason, IMHO and from my experiences at the range, why there is an issue. I don't think anyone is saying it's OK to break the rules, just that it would be nice to know them beforehand rather than to discover an arcane or little known rule specific to this range for the first time by some power hungry RSO who wants to demonstrate his knowledge of said rules by yelling through the PA. So, how about you post all the rules, for all the ranges, both online and prominently at the range so everyone can be on the same page?
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It really doesn't pay to be a RO. I wish everyone were required to cycle through in service to the community as a RO. However, as with this past Sunday, no matter how nice we speak to someone, the most effective (i.e. they remember and won't do it again) method is to yell at them in the act or just after the act. In this case, same individual handled a revolver to load it while people were down range.
Of course, he gave attitude back after correcting him twice. Politely after the first time, and getting yelled at the second time. I've found there's rarely a second time after receiving an over-the-PA warning a first time.
I hope I don't need to explain why we consider handling a firearm or anything on the shooting bench when people are down range is a big no-no.
And if the RSOs had watched the line a little better wouldn't they have seen the guy you mentioned walking up to the line, crossing over the yellow line and picking up the revolver before he could start loading it? And once he was identified as having a problem the first ("polite") time, shouldn't the RSOs been keeping a much closer eye on him?
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I'm the former Hunter Ed master instructor. Left the program in 2007 due to massive disagreement with management concerning the effectiveness of the firearms portion of the course both long guns and pistols. You are correct there was no hands on. What I would do is bring in some of my firearms and snap caps to demonstrate safe handling, how each of the actions listing the the course book worked and properly unloading each type of action ensuring that they were in fact unloaded. Was not permitted to let any student touch the firearm due to "liability" concerns. The program did have three or four confiscated firearms that were de-activated. The actions did not work well and did not contribute to the learning experience.
Quite a few years ago (thikn it was after the Uesugi incident) all Master HE instructors testified and gave opinions to the legislature about HPD accepting the HE course completion card and a qualification to purchase a handgun. Myself and three other instructors were against this. Our reasoning was anyone who would be teaching the handgun portion of the course had to be a qualified and current NRA instructor and that range time would be needed/required. That meant all students would have to comply but would have given them hands on. the DOCARE head at the time (who we fell under) disagreed and sided with the five other instructors who did not feel it was necessary and managed to thwart our efforts for a better program and ramrodded their ideas and got it approved. Sad day.
All that being said the Hunter ED program does have a program whereas students 9-12 and score better than a 90% on the final exam can apply to attend a 5 day/4 night camp, sponsored by the Safari Club and the Hunter ED program, on the big island. There was a shooting day where they fired 22's, shotguns and muzzleloaders, range safety, firearms handling and cleaning. After completing that protion, the following day they actually walked a small sporting clay course set up the the instructors to teach "shoot/don't shoot". other than that, no actual training other than classroom. The requirement that a child between the ages of 9-12 can shoot centerfire if they attended Hunter ED is somewhat of a stupid concept since they only ones with experience where the ones who attended the camp.
As for loaded pistol mags being removed from the bench during a cease fire is a very sound policy which I fully support. All it takes is one nut case, one pissed off individual etc to come onto the pistol range, grab a mag and a gun (normally laying next to the loaded mag on the bench and start firing. An ounce of prevention iw worth a pound of cure and that policy makes me feel safer as well.
Hope this clears things up.....
Thanks for the history of the legislation. It's interesting to note but it doesn't clear up the question of why a 9-12 year-old who has successfully completed the HE course can shoot center fire guns on the range while the 9-12 year-old who hasn't is disallowed from shooting center fire. Maybe K9, who sounds like a current RSO, could answer the question?
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^^^^^because once completing and passing the hunter ed course the minor (minimum for minor is 10 years of age) can legally hunt with adult supervision.............which would require a centerfire rifle with a minimum muzzle energy of 1200 ft/pd.
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And if the RSOs had watched the line a little better wouldn't they have seen the guy you mentioned walking up to the line, crossing over the yellow line and picking up the revolver before he could start loading it? And once he was identified as having a problem the first ("polite") time, shouldn't the RSOs been keeping a much closer eye on him?
Agreed.
I understand they want to promote a friendly environment, but shooting the shit by the office instead of vigilantly patrolling the line is unacceptable.
I know people are going to say, "well why don't you do it then"; hence the reason most people don't want to work as an RSO and do what an RSO should do, because it's hard work to monitor multiple people and firearms at one time.
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think the c&c parks and rec is still taking applications.......................... :thumbsup:
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Noted. I'll point all the ROs to this thread as the reason to keep a closer eye on everyone and crack down more.
It's become apparent that range user registration is needed, as the huge signs near the required sign-in still goes unnoticed, as stated here.
Rule #1. Know and obey all range commands.
Nuff said. Come and enjoy shooting safely. Or enjoy the firearms community online because you were mouthy and a safety liability and got trespassed and banned. Those are the simple choices. You can either have a severe crackdown, in which case there will be more whining and complaining, or we can have an unsafe environment, in which case someone could die and there will be even more whining. Like I said, ROs can't win. However, are the authority for the range.
You don't have to like it, but that's how it is. Tough.
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The personalities of the ROs differ but even after decades of shooting there I obey them.
The ad for ROs is still up at the range.
There are rules to be followed but few ever read them. There is ALWAYS a day at the range when the ROs have to say "stay back of the yellow line"; despite having a yellow line and signs above the log book. Before a cease fire the ROs always remind people not to approach the bench ahead of the yellow line and not to pick things up on the bench - do people listen? NO - despite audio and visual cues.
At about $13 an hour maxing out at 18 hours a week who wants to work as an RO and deal with these kind of people on a weekend?
I'm thankful that we have a C&C range with all this anti gun sentiment in Hawaii.
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The personalities of the ROs differ but even after decades of shooting there I obey them.
The ad for ROs is still up at the range.
There are rules to be followed by few ever read them. There is ALWAYS a day at the range when the ROs have to say "stay back of the yellow line"; despite having a yellow line and signs above the log book. Before a cease fire the ROs always remind people not to approach the bench ahead of the yellow line and not to pick things up on the bench - do people listen? NO - despite audio and visual cues.
At about $13 an hour maxing out at 18 hours a week who wants to work as an RO and deal with these kind of people on a weekend?
I'm thankful that we have a C&C range with all this anti gun sentiment in Hawaii.
You got to have a special place in your heart for the range or shooting community to do the job.
You did leave out the part where people question and argue the rules EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
And point loaded guns at each other or the RO walking the line, then gets upset and mad when they get yelled at.
Same thing on these forums. Good reminder that ROs are both unappreciated and much-needed at the same time.
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The personalities of the ROs differ but even after decades of shooting there I obey them.
The ad for ROs is still up at the range.
There are rules to be followed by few ever read them. There is ALWAYS a day at the range when the ROs have to say "stay back of the yellow line"; despite having a yellow line and signs above the log book. Before a cease fire the ROs always remind people not to approach the bench ahead of the yellow line and not to pick things up on the bench - do people listen? NO - despite audio and visual cues.
At about $13 an hour maxing out at 18 hours a week who wants to work as an RO and deal with these kind of people on a weekend?
I'm thankful that we have a C&C range with all this anti gun sentiment in Hawaii.
I could care less about the range if I could just shoot behind my house.
Sadly, it's all we have, so I have no choice to follow their rules and deal with it.
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Thanks for the history of the legislation. It's interesting to note but it doesn't clear up the question of why a 9-12 year-old who has successfully completed the HE course can shoot center fire guns on the range while the 9-12 year-old who hasn't is disallowed from shooting center fire. Maybe K9, who sounds like a current RSO, could answer the question?
I agree 100%. the kids who attend the camp are better educated upon completion than those who did not attend BUT with a knowledgeable and responsible coach/parent teaching the kids who were not fortunate enough to attend are just just as good (maybe better due to thier long term instruction) then those who went to the camp. In my honest opinion just the HE course should make no difference. Let them shoot and learn. The 22lr restriction proves or prevents nothing except for dumb parents who let thier first timer son/daughter shoot thier 30-06 (I've seen it happen).
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Agreed.
I understand they want to promote a friendly environment, but shooting the shit by the office instead of vigilantly patrolling the line is unacceptable.
I know people are going to say, "well why don't you do it then"; hence the reason most people don't want to work as an RSO and do what an RSO should do, because it's hard work to monitor multiple people and firearms at one time.
And therein lays the problem...I always see the ROs huddled together instead of watching the line. Or hanging out and shooting with their friends instead of watching the line (and posting pictures on FB of them doing so)...I don't know, but is the one older RO still reloading ammo while on-duty? We're talking responsibility here and it's kinda hard to believe they're doing all they can when they let their fellow ROs light the range on fire with a flare gun....
I don't have a problem with ROs making people abide by the rules, but if rules differ from one section of the range to the other than that's a problem. If there isn't a standardized set of rules that you can provide to shooters (rather than an old, faded set stapled to the announcement board), then that's a problem. You want to be considered a professional, act like one.
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Noted. I'll point all the ROs to this thread as the reason to keep a closer eye on everyone and crack down more.
It's become apparent that range user registration is needed, as the huge signs near the required sign-in still goes unnoticed, as stated here.
Rule #1. Know and obey all range commands.
Nuff said. Come and enjoy shooting safely. Or enjoy the firearms community online because you were mouthy and a safety liability and got trespassed and banned. Those are the simple choices. You can either have a severe crackdown, in which case there will be more whining and complaining, or we can have an unsafe environment, in which case someone could die and there will be even more whining. Like I said, ROs can't win. However, are the authority for the range.
You don't have to like it, but that's how it is. Tough.
See, there's the problem. When individuals that use the range make legitimate complaints that the ROs are acting like power hungry asses, the response is, 'too bad' and 'if you don't like it, tough.' Or fine, I'll ask the ROs to "crack down" more....You are there not only to make sure things are safe, but to provide a modicum of education to those than may need a little help.
I don't think anyone is asking for a "severe crackdown" but rather a professional and calm demeanor, some consistency with the rules and the application thereof, and some reasonable efforts to actually pay attention to the whole range, all the time instead of watching the ROs having a chat fest or shooting guns while they're on duty....
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I really enjoy using the range, and I'm grateful that we have it available to us. I'm also grateful to the ROs and RSOs that help provide a safe environment for all of us.
That being said, I don't believe they are volunteers... and since we're (indirectly) paying for them, we have the right to expect a certain minimum level of service; to my mind, that includes a courteous attitude. You CAN be courteous and firm at the same time. I've never had a negative interaction with any of the RSOs, and have been courteously corrected on a couple of occasions when they've been concerned about minor details of what I was doing. No problem with that. On the other hand, I have seen RSOs deal with shooters from a perspective of "you're an idiot, and I've got power, so I'm going to make you feel little and stupid." Not OK.
Regarding leaving a loaded magazine on the shooting bench when going downrange... I agree 100% that it is MORE safe to not have loaded magazines on the bench while folks are downrange. I think the risk of something bad happening when there's a loaded magazine on the bench is very small, but it's even smaller when there no loaded mags on the bench. That doesn't make it a range rule. If you want it to be a rule, post it on the signs with the rules, and if it applies to the handgun side, it should equally apply to the rifle side (you seriously think it's more difficult to pop a loaded mag into an AR than into a Glock?). "Range commands," to me, means "approach the bench, handle firearms, and commence firing," "complete your firing," and "cease fire." So that means, IN MY OPINION, that "don't leave a loaded mag on the bench during a cease fire" is neither a range rule nor a range command; it's an RSO/RO enforcing a personal preference... which is OK, but if it's my first time to the range, don't expect me to know about it and don't treat me like an idiot if I inadvertently violate that non-rule.
Summary: NOBODY benefits when ANYBODY starts flipping attitude. Let's treat each other with respect and have a safe (1st priority), fun (2nd priority) time.