2aHawaii

General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: j10nke on July 30, 2016, 03:00:51 PM

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Post by: j10nke on July 30, 2016, 03:00:51 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 30, 2016, 03:41:18 PM
The Libertarian Party candidate is not on 14 states' or DC's 2016 ballots.  If the Libertarian party is still short a few states, they can never get enough electoral votes, even if the popular vote splits 1/3 each for the 3 candidates. 

Mathematically, this third party isn't able to do what Perot did.  At one point, Perot was out polling both Bush and Clinton.  He spent almost $70M of his own money against a Democrat Governor from the South (remembrances of Carter) and an incumbent who was lashed with his own "read my lips" quote in every opposition ad out there.

I don't think someone like Perot could be the 3rd rail again due to the nature of politics and bias of the media today.

So, unless and until Johnson can appear on 100% of ballots in the US election, this discussion is moot. 

(http://i.imgur.com/QG5WRgb.png)
https://www.lp.org/2016-presidential-ballot-access-map
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: London808 on July 30, 2016, 05:48:03 PM
Simply put a third party vote is a wasted vote,

In Americas history only 1 3rd party president has been elected,

You can not build a political organization from the top down, if a 3rd party wants to win they have to build a solid foundation winning county, city and state seats first. They need to show why they are better and then back it up.

The electoral college is setup in such a way that a 3rd party candidate can not possibly win without the support of the states. Now if America was a true democracy where one person equaled one vote and one vote weighed equally again all other then a 3rd party might have a chance but it don't so they don't.


Here's how to fix the American political system:
One person, one vote:  Every vote is counted at the individual level and whoever gets the most wins,
Term limits for all positions : 2 terms 3 years each, president stays as current 4+4
Most importantly, set spending : no fund raising, no super pacs, no donations. Every candidate running gets a set amount to spend issued to them.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 30, 2016, 08:13:21 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 30, 2016, 08:39:31 PM
Ok so pick between a liar and a moron instead of try?

Trump is a billionaire.  He didn't get that rich being a "moron."  I've watched him on the apprentice shows.  He comes up with some extremely smart words of wisdom for the players.  No one has to agree with him 100% of the time, but he is right more times than not.

Hillary is not just a liar.  She's an unindicted criminal, and a complete failure in government.  For someone with 40 years experience, her resume is sorely lacking in significant achievements.

Are these the best we can find?  Of course not.  But, maybe it's the best we can convince to endure the ridiculing, mud slinging, closet-skeleton hunting and grueling campaigning schedule. 

Trump is funding the majority of his campaign.  He's asking for donations from individuals, but not from big businesses and PACs.  Hillary is the exact opposite, even though she and the money laundering Clinton Foundation have made her a multi-millionaire, if not a billionaire.

Between the two, I don't think Trump is a terrible choice.  Hillary should have just dropped out while under FBI investigation.  Most people of principle would have.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: London808 on July 30, 2016, 08:40:29 PM
You can vote for whoever you want but a vote for any one other then trump is a vote for Hillary and a vote to ban firearms,

The next president owns SCOTUS and if Hillary wins Hella is gone and so is the right to bear arms for self defense, they will read the 2a as militia only and will ban the sale and ownership of as many guns as they can.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: London808 on July 30, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
The problem with most people's opinion on trump is they listen to the media and only get 1/2 of what is said instead of looking at the whole conversation, if they go to his campaign website and look at his policy's the story would be different.

Trumps 2a policy is you have to right to own guns, the federal government should be enforcing that with a federal cow permit valid everywhere just like a drivers license
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 30, 2016, 09:00:17 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 30, 2016, 09:53:36 PM
Trump would be my second choice.  The line between knowing what the people want and saying what the people want to hear is very flip floppity blurry.

Id like to see Hillary go to jail like any private would.

So, in terms of pies, if you hate Banana Creme, you like Chocolate, but the Fresh Strawberry you really like is out of season, would you refuse to order, or would you be happy that you had a choice other than one you hate?
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: omnigun on July 30, 2016, 10:59:44 PM
So you want to vote for hillary eh? cause thats what johnson is
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on July 31, 2016, 06:09:48 AM
If it really came to choosing between a crazy person and corruption incarnate I would pick the crazy person because at least his platform I could agree with. But it is not the case that there are only two decisions. That is a lie that is fed time and time again by the media and the two parties in power.

They set up the system to keep out third party challengers. It's like a restaurant owner leaving a dish off the menu and saying "look, no one orders that dish." It is circular reasoning. The only thing that makes it true that a 3rd party vote is a waste is that people repeat it over and over again until people believe it.  If libertarians lost fare and square then oh well, but that is not the case. The system keeps them from getting their foot in the door. The media doesn't cover them and the Commission on Presidential Debates is controlled by the republicans and democrats so it has a vested interest in keeping them out. I say let the libertarian debate and if he still can't win then no one can cry foul.

People want to blame 3rd party voters for the loss of their candidate but if that logic holds true, they are equally responsible for the loss of the third party candidate. Furthermore, a vote for one candidate doesn't necessarily indicate a loss of a vote for a particular candidate. Years ago I voted for Nader and democrats blamed Nader for their loss. But guess what, in absence of Nader I wasn't going to vote democrat, I would have voted republican.

Vote 3rd party if that is how you want. We are in a blue state anyway, you aren't going to hurt Trump's chances. I will not be shamed into voting for a certain party. The republicans don't get my vote by default, they have to earn it. Tired of republicans who aren't conservative and if they have to learn their lesson the hard way then so be it.

There, that is my rant for your reading pleasure.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 06:22:09 AM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on July 31, 2016, 09:06:54 AM
If it really came to choosing between a crazy person and corruption incarnate I would pick the crazy person because at least his platform I could agree with. But it is not the case that there are only two decisions. That is a lie that is fed time and time again by the media and the two parties in power.

They set up the system to keep out third party challengers. It's like a restaurant owner leaving a dish off the menu and saying "look, no one orders that dish." It is circular reasoning. The only thing that makes it true that a 3rd party vote is a waste is that people repeat it over and over again until people believe it.  If libertarians lost fare and square then oh well, but that is not the case. The system keeps them from getting their foot in the door. The media doesn't cover them and the Commission on Presidential Debates is controlled by the republicans and democrats so it has a vested interest in keeping them out. I say let the libertarian debate and if he still can't win then no one can cry foul.

People want to blame 3rd party voters for the loss of their candidate but if that logic holds true, they are equally responsible for the loss of the third party candidate. Furthermore, a vote for one candidate doesn't necessarily indicate a loss of a vote for a particular candidate. Years ago I voted for Nader and democrats blamed Nader for their loss. But guess what, in absence of Nader I wasn't going to vote democrat, I would have voted republican.

Vote 3rd party if that is how you want. We are in a blue state anyway, you aren't going to hurt Trump's chances. I will not be shamed into voting for a certain party. The republicans don't get my vote by default, they have to earn it. Tired of republicans who aren't conservative and if they have to learn their lesson the hard way then so be it.

There, that is my rant for your reading pleasure.

I'd agree with this.  This state has no say in it, and if the popular vote said so, they would probably vote otherwise anyway, because that is how they roll.

I'm not voting for Johnson, but the fact of the matter is Hawaii vote for president doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 31, 2016, 12:39:08 PM
if those pies were infected with AIDS it wouldn't be much of a choice.

That's not even close to a valid analogy.  You were giving us your PREFERENCES, but now you're saying you don't like ANY of the choices.

Please make up your mind.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 02:03:30 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: FBI on July 31, 2016, 02:14:37 PM
You can vote for whoever you want but a vote for any one other then trump is a vote for Hillary and a vote to ban firearms,

The next president owns SCOTUS and if Hillary wins Hella is gone and so is the right to bear arms for self defense, they will read the 2a as militia only and will ban the sale and ownership of as many guns as they can.
SCOTUS is the real reason to vote for Trump.  If Trump turns out to be a turkey, it will be so easy to
impeach him,  It would be laughable.  Hillary will take our guns away and she will be virtually
un-impeachable, just like criminal Obama.
Trump will give us a fair SCOTUS, Hillary will give us a
NAZI racist Anti-gun SCOTUS.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 02:19:40 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 31, 2016, 02:20:54 PM
Nope.  I just stated who I wanted to be president.  You took it upon yourself to rain on my parade telling me why it's not possible.  I told you my reasons against Trump and that being the possibility/probability that he is feeding off frustrations to gain popularity flip flopping on the issues.

You started talking about pies... I was participating in your analogy and letting you know that if both alternatives to my preferred choice would make me sick (trump/Hillary) I'd be best without pie huh?  Next time I'll just say "nobody was talking about pie here."

Hillary should go to jail.

Trump might have the right idea about guns... That's only one aspect.

Johnson has the right idea about a lot of things. 

These are my opinions so you can't win this argument no matter how hard you try... They'll still be my opinion.

Argument?  I thought this was supposed to be a discussion.

It's your thread, so you can argue if you want.  I already know who the greater of the two evils is, and that it's stupid to even consider a 3rd party victory this year.

Until both major parties are in total disarray and one nominee completely incapable of turning out a decisive victory over the other, only then will a 3rd party have a chance.  As I said, Perot had the best chance.  Polling put the 3 parties at roughly 1/3 chance of winning.  Johnson is about 3%-10%. 

No argument.  Just facts.  If you know something other than this, please post it.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 02:59:21 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 31, 2016, 03:17:16 PM
I meant argument as in two or more people discussing opposing points of views... Not fighting verbally.  I had a longer post typed out but didn't realize I wasn't logged in and lost it.  It's ok it's all just words. 


Edit : You should make your decision on his popularity after the debates if he makes it that far.  If there isn't rapid growth from that point Id be likely to say there's no "chance".

Commission on Presidential Debates rules: 

Quote
Under the 2016 Criteria, in addition to being Constitutionally eligible,
candidates must appear on a sufficient number of state ballots to have a mathematical chance of winning a majority vote in the Electoral College, and
have a level of support of at least 15 percent of the national electorate as determined by five selected national public opinion polling organizations, using the average of those organizations’ most recently publicly-reported results at the time of the determination.

The polls to be relied upon will be selected based on the quality of the methodology employed, the reputation of the polling organizations and the frequency of the polling conducted. CPD will identify the selected polling organizations well in advance of the time the criteria are applied.

So, I can tell you at this point, he's lacking being on the ballots of14 states (some critical) plus DC.  Even if the Libertarian Party succeeds at getting him on 100% of the 51 ballots, he's polling at 10% or below.  Hitting the 15% needed to be in the debates is going to take money, which is the party's greatest weakness.

So, there are two factors that tell me Johnson has a major challenge even participating in the scheduled debates.  So waiting until after the debates is wishful thinking.  I believe anything is possible, but in this case, it's very unlikely to work out for him.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 03:35:17 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 31, 2016, 03:40:25 PM
In your opinion unlikely... Ok you are entitled to that.  It's just not in my nature to hope for the lesser of two evils I'd rather hope for what I think could be the most ideal.

My opinion is based on data and polls, as well as political history.

I'm still wondering what your opinion is based on.  If it's "hope", I think these last 8 years have proven that to be a poor basis for presidential selection.
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: London808 on July 31, 2016, 04:46:55 PM
I dont think hes a bad choice, I would love to have him over the other 2 candidates, Although i dont like his stance on immigration (Let them in legally so they dont have to come in illegally).
He is running on the same lines as Ted Cruise and Paul Rand both of whom i think would be better then the current 2 candidates.
That being said This guy stands no chance of winning, Not because of his policy's but because he does not have the backing of the media and the partys which have a tight hold on the system.

Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on July 31, 2016, 04:58:22 PM
Your opinion is Johnson got no chance.  My opinion is Johnson would make the best president there for I hope he gets elected.  I don't think much else has been layed out there.  Let me know if there's anything else you wonder.

Edit : unless you are still wondering about the pie thing in which case, no, I don't want any pie.

My opinion is, if Johnson were truly a viable candidate, we'd hear about him more often than once every four years when he runs for President.  What has he added to his resume since then?  From what I've read, he advocates for legalized marijuana, sits on a couple of nonprofit organizations, and does a few online question/answer sessions with the public.

When he was NM Governor between 1995-2003, he won election as a Republican.  He became Libertarian in 2011.  That's when he declared he was running for President "as a Republican but on a Libertarian platform."  Even then, he didn't get enough support to participate in the majority of Republican debates.  After that, and with poor showings in his campaigning, he switched parties to become a Libertarian Party candidate.  He received 0.99% of the popular vote in 2012.

Maybe you're right.  With that kind of performance record, he cant't help but do better this year!!   :rofl:

Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 06:21:27 PM
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Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 06:26:38 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: omnigun on July 31, 2016, 06:55:01 PM
More pie references.....
You like cherry pie and you are highly allergic to chocolate.  You are literally starving and will die if you dont eat something.  There are only 2 choices for food to eat.
Your choices of pies that are available are chocolate (hillary) and strawberry(trump).
Now there is a cherry pie that is available to be baked (johnson) but it will never be ready for any time frame which you desire. In fact there are no cherries in the entire world and there will never be a chance there will ever be cherries in the entire world for many decades.

What do you do?  Do you wish upon the cherry pie and die?  Do you suck it up and eat the strawberry pie.  Or do you kill yourself with the chocolate pie. 


On a side non pie note:  Johnson is sorta anti gun bro...thats bad.  I remember when he literally threw away a gun gift.  And I think his vice president was anti gun if i remember correctly. 
Title: .
Post by: j10nke on July 31, 2016, 08:21:31 PM
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Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 02, 2016, 02:23:37 AM
I'd agree with this.  This state has no say in it, and if the popular vote said so, they would probably vote otherwise anyway, because that is how they roll.

I'm not voting for Johnson, but the fact of the matter is Hawaii vote for president doesn't matter.

Are you going to vote for a 3rd party candidate though? (As far as the Presidential race)
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 02, 2016, 02:26:31 AM
SCOTUS is the real reason to vote for Trump.  If Trump turns out to be a turkey, it will be so easy to
impeach him,  It would be laughable.

In all my genius (sarcasm) I had not thought that angle. That might actually be an angle I could vote for Trump! Vote for Trump assuming that he will be impeached and we will get Pence. Either that or Trump gets assassinated.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 02, 2016, 02:34:50 AM
Until both major parties are in total disarray and one nominee completely incapable of turning out a decisive victory over the other, only then will a 3rd party have a chance.  As I said, Perot had the best chance.  Polling put the 3 parties at roughly 1/3 chance of winning.  Johnson is about 3%-10%. 

Something like 70% of America hates Trump and 60% of America hates Clinton. (rough estimate, not sure of most current polls)

That is a significant number of people who are strongly averted from the two major choices. I think this is about the best chance a 3rd party candidate can get right now, short of Clinton or Trump being arrested or dying. Carpe Diem.

Johnson's accomplishments may not be amazing but perhaps his lack skeletons is an accomplishment compared to Clinton and Trump. What has Clinton accomplished? Scandals, lies, cover ups, risking sensitive information. What has Trump accomplished? Lies, scandals, bankruptcy, lawsuits, etc.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 02, 2016, 02:57:07 AM
Something like 70% of America hates Trump and 60% of America hates Clinton. (rough estimate, not sure of most current polls)

That is a significant number of people who are strongly averted from the two major choices. I think this is about the best chance a 3rd party candidate can get right now, short of Clinton or Trump being arrested or dying. Carpe Diem.

Johnson's accomplishments may not be amazing but perhaps his lack skeletons is an accomplishment compared to Clinton and Trump. What has Clinton accomplished? Scandals, lies, cover ups, risking sensitive information. What has Trump accomplished? Lies, scandals, bankruptcy, lawsuits, etc.

You keep ignoring one little detail I keep posting:  The Libertarian Party Has Very Little Money!!!!   Perot was a BILLIONAIRE, and he self-funded his campaign with matching funds from the government (that box people check on their tax returns to donate to that fund).

So, if the media won't give them free publicity (like they have for Trump so far), there is no way they can compete in a few short months.  If they don't have the funds by now, it ain't happening.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 02, 2016, 04:54:06 AM
You keep ignoring one little detail I keep posting:  The Libertarian Party Has Very Little Money!!!!   Perot was a BILLIONAIRE, and he self-funded his campaign with matching funds from the government (that box people check on their tax returns to donate to that fund).

So, if the media won't give them free publicity (like they have for Trump so far), there is no way they can compete in a few short months.  If they don't have the funds by now, it ain't happening.

I am not saying he has great odds, I just think that these are probably the best odds a libertarian has ever seen.

The optimist in my still has his fingers crossed.

There are enough rabid anti Trump people that it really wouldn't surprise me if he got assassinated. Not sure what the rules are if a candidate dies or becomes ineligible mid race though. I assume the RNC would just vote to pick a new candidate so maybe the door for Johnson wouldn't be that big?
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: omnigun on August 02, 2016, 06:27:07 AM
I am not saying he has great odds, I just think that these are probably the best odds a libertarian has ever seen.

The optimist in my still has his fingers crossed.

There are enough rabid anti Trump people that it really wouldn't surprise me if he got assassinated. Not sure what the rules are if a candidate dies or becomes ineligible mid race though. I assume the RNC would just vote to pick a new candidate so maybe the door for Johnson wouldn't be that big?


Even with those "odds"  its wont happen.  In polls he is topping out at 10%  which is a complete nothing burger.  Hell I have better odds at winning the mega lotto then  him winning the presidential election. 
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 02, 2016, 09:47:21 AM
To be frank, there are people who vote in this country who have NO IDEA who the people are on the ballot, and that includes President and VP nominees.

They vote party lines.  Always have, just like their parents taught them to.  If they had to pick a name instead of their party affiliation, they would not know what to do with that ballot!

So, even if Hillary is forced to step down and do the "perp walk" or Trump gets bumped off, there are a great many who will vote a straight party ticket to prevent the other party from winning.

There are people voting in this election who cannot tell you who the current VP, Secretary of State and majority party leaders in Congress are.  That's why asking for ID is considered disenfranchising those voters!  They can't be expected to remember to bring their ID to the polling places.

Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 02, 2016, 12:01:28 PM

Even with those "odds"  its wont happen.  In polls he is topping out at 10%  which is a complete nothing burger.  Hell I have better odds at winning the mega lotto then  him winning the presidential election.

5% more and he could make it to the presidential debates. With Trump digging himself deeper and deeper I only see Johnson's chances improving.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 02, 2016, 12:03:30 PM
To be frank, there are people who vote in this country who have NO IDEA who the people are on the ballot, and that includes President and VP nominees.

They vote party lines.  Always have, just like their parents taught them to.  If they had to pick a name instead of their party affiliation, they would not know what to do with that ballot!

So, even if Hillary is forced to step down and do the "perp walk" or Trump gets bumped off, there are a great many who will vote a straight party ticket to prevent the other party from winning.

There are people voting in this election who cannot tell you who the current VP, Secretary of State and majority party leaders in Congress are.  That's why asking for ID is considered disenfranchising those voters!  They can't be expected to remember to bring their ID to the polling places.

I had a "friend" in college who said she just voted whoever had the Japanese last name. (she was Japanese)

I guess we get the government we deserve not the one we want.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 02, 2016, 02:52:14 PM
I think Trump's unpopularity is a farce.  Online polls on one of the webs most leftist controlled webpages, MSN, consistently shows 60% or better support for Trump being elected president.  People are pissed at the status quo, and are ready to break from the norm.

Of course the complicit media will never report this, and continue to step up the propaganda.

There can always be more and more blatant voter fraud perpetrated.  Look for it.

JMHO
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: drck1000 on August 02, 2016, 03:10:55 PM
I think Trump's unpopularity is a farce.  Online polls on one of the webs most leftist controlled webpages, MSN, consistently shows 60% or better support for Trump being elected president.  People are pissed at the status quo, and are ready to break from the norm.

Of course the complicit media will never report this, and continue to step up the propaganda.

There can always be more and more blatant voter fraud perpetrated.  Look for it.

JMHO
I believe a lot of the Trump hate is real, just also that parts (or most) of the MSM exaggerates it, spins it, etc. 

That said, there really don't seem to be many who actually like/favor Hillary for Hillary.  Most that I come across are either "never Trump" types or those Sanders supporters that will stick with that side of the aisle. 

Voter fraud?  I recall that subject coming up in 2008 and again in 2012.  I'd be interested in more information on that end, but never know what source to trust. 

On the subject of voters knowing who/what they are voting for.  I know MANY who voted for Obama or Schatz just because of ties to Punahou.  Many who will vote for a [insert race] name because they are [insert race].  I try to be informed and to be honest, many times I end up not voting in many sections.  That's when I learned more about the "non-votes" being counted as "NO" for many of the ballot initiatives.  Have tried to keep up better after that. 
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 05, 2016, 10:18:37 PM
Looks like Gary Johnson is pandering for the Black Lives Matter vote from the Sanders voters.   :wtf:

https://youtu.be/y9bwi91j99U
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: London808 on August 06, 2016, 10:41:32 AM
Looks like Gary Johnson is pandering for the Black Lives Matter vote from the Sanders voters.   :wtf:

https://youtu.be/y9bwi91j99U

This video just made me say NO WAY NO HOW, this guy is not a conservative or a libertarian, hes a pandering fool.

Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Jl808 on August 06, 2016, 01:43:37 PM
Black votes matter.

As long as Clinton and Obama keeps the blacks angry, they can expect them to turn out at the polls for the votes.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 06, 2016, 02:07:08 PM
Maybe Johnson needs to read the "Issues" page at LP.org, the Libertarian Party homepage!

Quote
Step 3. Get Tough on Real Crime

The Libertarian Party is the party of personal responsibility. We believe that anyone who harms another person should be held responsible for that action. By contrast, the Democrats and Republicans have created a system where criminals can get away with almost anything.

For instance: sentences seldom mean what they say. Fewer than one out of every four violent felons serves more than four years. Libertarians would dramatically reduce the number of these early releases by eliminating their root cause - prison over-crowding.

Since nearly six out of every ten federal prison inmates are there for non-violent drug-related offenses, it's clear that drug prohibition is the primary source of this over-crowding. It has been estimated that every drug offender imprisoned results in the release of one violent criminal, who then commits an average of 40 robberies, 7 assaults, 110 burglaries and 25 auto thefts. Early release of violent criminals puts you and your family at risk. It must stop.


I see a MAJOR CONFLICT between the party's stance described above and Johnson saying the police discriminate.

You can't paint all Cops as racists.  For starters, not all Cops are White!!

Secondly, when you treat a criminal differently because of race, for whatever purpose, that is in itself discrimination.

A group calling themselves "Black Lives Matter" is discriminatory by it's nature and title.  If we treated all people as people, and not as objects (a Black teen, or a White woman), maybe we could get further along down that path to color blind societies.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 07, 2016, 08:06:39 PM
This video just made me say NO WAY NO HOW, this guy is not a conservative or a libertarian, hes a pandering fool.

Pandering sure, but a fool? He knows that if he is going to stand any chance he has to siphon votes from very voter class and group.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 07, 2016, 08:50:55 PM
Pandering sure, but a fool? He knows that if he is going to stand any chance he has to siphon votes from very voter class and group.

Just so we're clear ...  is it your story tonight Gary Johnson is no better than the Democrat and Republican nominees in terms of honesty and principles when campaigning?    ???
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 07, 2016, 10:16:45 PM
Pandering sure, but a fool? He knows that if he is going to stand any chance he has to siphon votes from very voter class and group.

I seriously doubt he will siphon votes from brainwashed Democrats. 
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 07, 2016, 10:24:57 PM
I seriously doubt he will siphon votes from brainwashed Democrats.

He may not, but I'm reading where the Green Party may.  Trump is also attracting some Obama voters.  They still believe in voting out the establishment politicians, and that's exactly who Trump is -- more so than Senator Obama was.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 08, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
He may not, but I'm reading where the Green Party may.  Trump is also attracting some Obama voters.  They still believe in voting out the establishment politicians, and that's exactly who Trump is -- more so than Senator Obama was.

How so?  IMO, Trump is NOT establishment, nor status quo.  Why is it that every side is working so hard to defeat him.  Media, Republican, Democrat, pretty much everyone except the people badmouth him and twist every thing he says and does.  One has to look at raw footage, and see all the context in real time, to take a real picture of his position on issues.  You cannot get the truth from any outlet.  It's become ever more obvious, seems they don't even try to hide that aspect anymore...

That is what I'm seeing anyway.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 09, 2016, 03:55:05 PM
How so?  IMO, Trump is NOT establishment, nor status quo.  Why is it that every side is working so hard to defeat him.  Media, Republican, Democrat, pretty much everyone except the people badmouth him and twist every thing he says and does.  One has to look at raw footage, and see all the context in real time, to take a real picture of his position on issues.  You cannot get the truth from any outlet.  It's become ever more obvious, seems they don't even try to hide that aspect anymore...

That is what I'm seeing anyway.

I don't know that they have to do anything to badmouth him. He hurts himself as much as any opponent could. If he had the same stances on issues but simply had a filter on his mouth, most of his problems would go away.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 09, 2016, 04:09:34 PM
Just so we're clear ...  is it your story tonight Gary Johnson is no better than the Democrat and Republican nominees in terms of honesty and principles when campaigning?    ???

Hardly comparable. Johnson coming out as sympathetic to "black issues" is nowhere near the levels of dishonesty and corruption proven to exist with Trump and Clinton. 

I think Johnson's comment is meant to show sympathy and a willingness to talk about an issue to a sizable group of voters. Even if a grievance is mostly unfounded it still helps to show you are concerned about their grievance. Ultimately Johnson's comment was very short and were not strongly worded one way or the other issue. You cannot really tackle such a topic in a 10 second answer. Remember that Johnson is working just to get on the speaking platform first, so a dismissive answer with no ability to clarify or add context is only going to hurt him.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 09, 2016, 04:59:00 PM
..... is nowhere near the levels of dishonesty and corruption proven to exist with Trump and Clinton. 


Can you list the dishonesty and corruption proven to exist with Trump? Clinton is not a question.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 09, 2016, 08:51:53 PM
Can you list the dishonesty and corruption proven to exist with Trump? Clinton is not a question.

Trump admitted during the debates how he had given money to Clinton for favors. Granted it isn't on the same level as Clinton since she is an elected official but Trump is still part of the problem.

As for Trump's dishonesty, there have been multiple times where Trump flat out denied saying things that he was on TV saying. He has changed sides on some issues, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but then he denies it in some cases.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 09, 2016, 09:10:32 PM
Trump admitted during the debates how he had given money to Clinton for favors. Granted it isn't on the same level as Clinton since she is an elected official but Trump is still part of the problem.

As for Trump's dishonesty, there have been multiple times where Trump flat out denied saying things that he was on TV saying. He has changed sides on some issues, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but then he denies it in some cases.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/pants-fire/

Giving money to politicians for favors is SOP for politicians.  I don't see how this makes Trump dishonest or corrupt.

As for politifact, the very first thing listed is.....

https://youtu.be/JNTwYQGeWow

It is blatantly left of center bias on the entire page. Hillary's 'pants on fire' bullsh*t o meter only lists 5 items....  ah com'on!

So still don't see any REAL dishonesty nor corruption from Trump.

I will concede, he is not a polished public speaker, IMO that is a good thing.  Say what you mean, and mean what you say.  I am tired of all the 'politics', time for a real person to shake things up and see what comes loose.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 10, 2016, 02:55:33 PM
Giving money to politicians for favors is SOP for politicians.  I don't see how this makes Trump dishonest or corrupt.

As for politifact, the very first thing listed is.....

It is blatantly left of center bias on the entire page. Hillary's 'pants on fire' bullsh*t o meter only lists 5 items....  ah com'on!

So still don't see any REAL dishonesty nor corruption from Trump.

I will concede, he is not a polished public speaker, IMO that is a good thing.  Say what you mean, and mean what you say.  I am tired of all the 'politics', time for a real person to shake things up and see what comes loose.

Trump admitted to participating in the corruption. Like I said, it is not as bad since he is not an elected official or a government official but he still is part of the problem. If he admits to doing it so readily as a businessman, why should we believe he would suddenly have a change of heart as an elected official? I have no reason to trust Trump to be a straight arrow.

Trump has been on camera saying one thing and then denying he ever said it shortly after. He has been caught lying time and time again. Not necessarily on big things but still, if we cannot trust him to tell us the truth on small things why would you trust him on the big things? He did it on televised national debates for crying out loud! I am thinking Trump might actually have a disorder. Maybe he is a compulsive liar?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/22/all-of-donald-trumps-four-pinocchio-ratings-in-one-place/

There was no shortage of links pointing out different lies Trump has been caught in.

But I don't mean this to be a Trump bashing topic. My main point that compared to Trump and Clinton, Johnson is an angel.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Big All on August 10, 2016, 03:23:17 PM
Gary Johnson wants to appoint liberal judges to the Supreme Court. So to all of you who want to vote for a conservative in order to get a conservative in SCOTUS is fooling yourself if you want to vote for this guy. This fact alone should prevent you from voting for him.

I am trying to get back on topic here.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 10, 2016, 07:28:47 PM
Gary Johnson wants to appoint liberal judges to the Supreme Court. So to all of you who want to vote for a conservative in order to get a conservative in SCOTUS is fooling yourself if you want to vote for this guy. This fact alone should prevent you from voting for him.

I am trying to get back on topic here.

Thanks Big All.  I went off on a tangent.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 10, 2016, 08:57:22 PM
Gary Johnson wants to appoint liberal judges to the Supreme Court. So to all of you who want to vote for a conservative in order to get a conservative in SCOTUS is fooling yourself if you want to vote for this guy. This fact alone should prevent you from voting for him.

I am trying to get back on topic here.

Do you have any link or source for that? I haven't come across any comments about his supreme court judge nomination ideas yet.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Big All on August 11, 2016, 06:12:30 AM
Do you have any link or source for that? I haven't come across any comments about his supreme court judge nomination ideas yet.
Google is your best friend and your worst enemy.  :shaka:
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 12, 2016, 12:10:22 PM
Google is your best friend and your worst enemy.  :shaka:

You made the claim so the burden of proof lies with you, thank you.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Big All on August 12, 2016, 12:15:10 PM
You made the claim so the burden of proof lies with you, thank you.
There is no burden on me. You want proof, go get it yourself.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 12, 2016, 12:19:36 PM
There is no burden on me. You want proof, go get it yourself.

Without proof, why should I believe your statement?

Johnson will appoint very conservative justices to the supreme court.  Go google it yourself.

I have now just disproven your statement with the same level of proof you provided.

See how that doesn't work very well?
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Big All on August 12, 2016, 12:23:39 PM
Without proof, why should I believe your statement?

Johnson will appoint very conservative justices to the supreme court.  Go google it yourself.

I have now just disproven your statement with the same level of proof you provided.

See how that doesn't work very well?
I don't care if you believe me or not. Those that want to know will go and google it. No burden.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 12, 2016, 12:56:51 PM
Without proof, why should I believe your statement?

:rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:         
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 12, 2016, 06:13:22 PM
:rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:          :rofl:         

Don't feed the troll.

 :stopjack:
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 12, 2016, 07:33:31 PM
http://redalertpolitics.com/2016/08/12/libertarian-vp-pick-slams-guns-handguns-even-worse-ar-15s/#AjJyiMpAWHQ516DW.99
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 13, 2016, 04:29:39 AM
Thank you Heavies. That is troubling indeed.
So the choices now become a crazy guy, corruption incarnate, and a decent candidate with a bad VP...
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 13, 2016, 09:12:08 AM
Thank you Heavies. That is troubling indeed.
So the choices now become a crazy guy, corruption incarnate, and a decent candidate with a bad VP...

What proof do you have Trump is crazy?  Slandering someone without proof is not acceptable.

Plus, you can't use that word anyway.  Billionaires are "excentrict".
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 14, 2016, 01:44:21 AM
What proof do you have Trump is crazy?  Slandering someone without proof is not acceptable.

Plus, you can't use that word anyway.  Billionaires are "excentrict".

I am not claiming him to be diagnosed with some mental illness. I just think he is a little crazy. He lies to us regularly (compulsively?) and doesn't seem to have a filter. I don't know if that is how he is or he is purposefully putting forth a certain style.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 14, 2016, 04:06:12 AM
I am not claiming him to be diagnosed with some mental illness. I just think he is a little crazy. He lies to us regularly (compulsively?) and doesn't seem to have a filter. I don't know if that is how he is or he is purposefully putting forth a certain style.
What has he lied about?
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 14, 2016, 04:07:07 AM
I am not claiming him to be diagnosed with some mental illness. I just think he is a little crazy. He lies to us regularly (compulsively?) and doesn't seem to have a filter. I don't know if that is how he is or he is purposefully putting forth a certain style.
Speaking one's mind is now considered "little bit crazy" now days?
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 14, 2016, 08:39:37 AM
I am not claiming him to be diagnosed with some mental illness. I just think he is a little crazy. He lies to us regularly (compulsively?) and doesn't seem to have a filter. I don't know if that is how he is or he is purposefully putting forth a certain style.

Not having a PC (Politically Correct) filter is one reason people like him.  It's refreshing to hear someone speak their mind, which is MORE honest than straddling some fence to avoid having to take an actual position on issues.

Politically Correct -- who decides what's correct politically?  Political correctness, or any other type of "FILTER" is just another name for censorship.  People are tired of that bullcrap.

As far as lying goes, I don't think he lies as much as embellishes or is misinformed.  Everyone does not know everything.  You're a perfect example.

Judge him as a human being and billionaire businessman, not as just another politician.  We are voting for a LEADER, not a figurehead.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 15, 2016, 03:42:46 AM
Not having a PC (Politically Correct) filter is one reason people like him.  It's refreshing to hear someone speak their mind, which is MORE honest than straddling some fence to avoid having to take an actual position on issues.

Politically Correct -- who decides what's correct politically?  Political correctness, or any other type of "FILTER" is just another name for censorship.  People are tired of that bullcrap.

As far as lying goes, I don't think he lies as much as embellishes or is misinformed.  Everyone does not know everything.  You're a perfect example.

Judge him as a human being and billionaire businessman, not as just another politician.  We are voting for a LEADER, not a figurehead.

I too like that he isn't politically correct but that is not really the instances I am concerned about. For example, he said he would date his own daughter if he weren't related. He says crazy things that having nothing to do with breaking the politically correct mold.

Misinformed? Sure sometimes. Embellishes? Still a form of dishonesty when it matters. Some of it he seems to pull out of his arse, like when he claimed unemployment was really in the 40% range. Is he blindly repeating anything someone tells him or is he consciously making stuff up? Is it acceptable to be so grossly misinformed as a presidential candidate?

He changes position on issues, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but then he lies about it. He says something and a few days later denies he ever said it.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Big All on August 15, 2016, 06:29:02 AM
I have not seen Fox News nor any of the left wing news agencies talking about this. But Trump has been suggesting he is leading in the polls when all the polls show Hillary with a ~10% lead. This information is that most of the polls coming out are from the left wing agencies and are purposely being skewed to show Hillary leading by a good amount. A lot of the skewing is coming by way of the polling who and where they are polling. In other words they go into a heavily Democrat district and do their polling. If you start looking at the Social Media Polls you start to realize that Trump is ahead in ALL polls by 300%-500% over Hillary. I am not exaggerating about the 3-5 times more votes for Trump over Hillary in all major Social Media Polls. Could it be the regular polls are being skewed as suggested? Could it be that in the privacy of ones home people are willing to share their real feelings while in public they are not?

Here is a link to read:

http://truthfeed.com/sean-hannity-exposes-national-polls-showing-hillary-winning-as-total-frauds/9529/

And another:

http://constitution.com/trump-leading-67-hillarys-19-national-poll-50000-voters/

When you add in the independents it’s a game changer.
Trump – Pence 2016
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 15, 2016, 08:41:21 AM
I've heard....
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 15, 2016, 08:44:27 AM
I too like that he isn't politically correct but that is not really the instances I am concerned about. For example, he said he would date his own daughter if he weren't related. He says crazy things that having nothing to do with breaking the politically correct mold.

Misinformed? Sure sometimes. Embellishes? Still a form of dishonesty when it matters. Some of it he seems to pull out of his arse, like when he claimed unemployment was really in the 40% range. Is he blindly repeating anything someone tells him or is he consciously making stuff up? Is it acceptable to be so grossly misinformed as a presidential candidate?

He changes position on issues, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, but then he lies about it. He says something and a few days later denies he ever said it.

You're repeating yourself in thread after thread.  We all know you hate Trump and love Johnson.

Just change your account signature to "I'm a Johnson Lover!!!"
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Big All on August 15, 2016, 09:35:52 AM
Just change your account signature to "I'm a Johnson Lover!!!"
:rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Heavies on August 15, 2016, 02:31:59 PM
(https://i.redd.it/6zbz8olm07cx.jpg)
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 15, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
You're repeating yourself in thread after thread.  We all know you hate Trump and love Johnson.

Just change your account signature to "I'm a Johnson Lover!!!"

And I suppose each post of yours is an original thought?

I have to clarify myself because some people are misunderstanding my comments. For example you thought I was talking about political correctness when I referenced Trump's crazy comments. So I clarify.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on August 15, 2016, 07:15:43 PM
And I suppose each post of yours is an original thought?

I have to clarify myself because some people are misunderstanding my comments. For example you thought I was talking about political correctness when I referenced Trump's crazy comments. So I clarify.

Why must you hijack every thread?

 :stopjack: :stopjack: :stopjack:
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 15, 2016, 07:27:42 PM
I have not seen Fox News nor any of the left wing news agencies talking about this. But Trump has been suggesting he is leading in the polls when all the polls show Hillary with a ~10% lead. This information is that most of the polls coming out are from the left wing agencies and are purposely being skewed to show Hillary leading by a good amount. A lot of the skewing is coming by way of the polling who and where they are polling. In other words they go into a heavily Democrat district and do their polling. If you start looking at the Social Media Polls you start to realize that Trump is ahead in ALL polls by 300%-500% over Hillary. I am not exaggerating about the 3-5 times more votes for Trump over Hillary in all major Social Media Polls. Could it be the regular polls are being skewed as suggested? Could it be that in the privacy of ones home people are willing to share their real feelings while in public they are not?

Here is a link to read:
http://truthfeed.com/sean-hannity-exposes-national-polls-showing-hillary-winning-as-total-frauds/9529/

And another:
http://constitution.com/trump-leading-67-hillarys-19-national-poll-50000-voters/

When you add in the independents it’s a game changer.
Trump – Pence 2016

There can be an incredible variation in poll numbers depending on how a poll is worded and how it is administered. Having said that, there are reliable polling companies that get good results, as opposed to a news poll on some webpage that conservatives or liberals spam.

Here is an interesting news story showing a large number of polls conducted. Trump is leading by a small percent in a few of them. Clinton is winning by a varying margin in the vast majority of them.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html

This claim by Trump seems like one of his statements he just makes up, knowing a certain number will just believe him because he says so and because there is a real or perceived media bias. Like when Trump claimed he was doing great with "the blacks" (25% he said) which is twice what any poll actually reported. (the highest he received was 12%).

Polls being manipulate is something to think about but it may end up being a double edged sword. For example, poll numbers might persuade or dissuade voters from showing up at the polls if they think their candidate might lose or the other might win.
Title: Re: Gary Johnson...
Post by: eyeeatingfish on August 15, 2016, 07:28:48 PM
Why must you hijack every thread?

 :stopjack: :stopjack: :stopjack:

Hypocrite.