2aHawaii
Tools and Uses => Firearms and Accessories => Deals and Sales => Topic started by: SpeedTek on February 06, 2012, 05:20:42 PM
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Tell me why a $2000 AR by Noveske is better than 3 $600 AR's? or 2 Built up $1000 AR's?
Was at a gun shop today and this guy was wailing about his $2k Noveske. After listening to him for 5 miin
I just had to say I would rather buy 3 AR's and throw scopes on them and be done. Then if one breaks
I have 2 more to use........Plus while you're sitting in the ditch trying to fix your $2k gun I have
spare parts....Then I gotta listen to him ramble on about how reliable his is and he will never have that problem..(Yeah Sure!)
..It was like talking to a Ferrari owner....painful.....
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I think the top-drawer manufacturers like Noveske and LaRue Tactical do all the work on their rifles on-site, so they're in better control of their materials. I know LaRue has a 1MOA guarantee on their OBRs, which is pretty good. Other than that, I think it's customer service, and their rifles are statistically more likely to run better and be more accurate than a $600 AR. Will every Noveske be better than every Oly? Probably not, but you're more likely to get a dud with one of the cheaper manufacturers.
Plus people like to have more expensive toys than the next guy... lol
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Tell me why a $2000 AR by Noveske is better than 3 $600 AR's? or 2 Built up $1000 AR's?...
I guess it really depends on your point of view. I am more like you. But I prefer bolt actions to AR's. Yeah I know you can bash me! :thumbsup:
I think his paying $2000 gave him one thing you'll never get with 3 garden variety AR's. Bragging rights. For me, it is not important. Where I came from everyone else felt it was so important that I left.
The way I see it is this. I can go to the range and shoot my $2k AR and put 5 rounds through the same hole by myself. Or I can invite 2 of my friends to come with me to the range and we can have a great time shooting all day. Then go have lunch and a few cold ones afterwards. Which day sounds more fun to you? Just saying....
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Lets put it like this. When the military first adopted the AR platform it went with the cheapest bidder at the time. So price does not have anything to do with quality. In terms of accuracy, a highly trained marksman using a cheapo gun can out shoot a recreational marksman using a high end gun. One of my first hunting guns was a crappy norinko SKS that I bought out of the police evidence room from a guy that had it taken away for domestic violence. That gun has killed more pigs and deer than any of my other guns, or any of my friends other high end guns. I had no problem dropping the gun in mud, water or blood. It always fired when I needed it to, and it didnt require much maint. I personally would take a $600 AR any day over a $2000 AR. Just my 2 cents...
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In a business sense I have no problem selling a $2000 gun if thats what the customer wants.
But my $550 AR that I put together from a hodge podge of parts is wasy better than most of my friends guns.
But when the guy told me a $600 AR is probably a piece of junk I wanted to argue with him but there is no point.
It is hard to express how this guy came off. It was almost like he sleeps with his damn gun!
If you got money to spend go for it because it makes the world go round.
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Why spend $600 for a AR that's considered a bottom end gun anyway when you can get a AKMS or Yugo AK and know it will always fire every time you pull the trigger and its cheap to feed and when society melts down 7.62x39 will be the most abundant round out there. AR vs AK = AK wins, Red dawn style.
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That's why I have a AR in 7.62x39 also which cost $600 also!
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My brother believes in the AK stigma and went AR in 7.62x39. He had to buy special mags and it doesn't feed well. Don't know if that's what I'd rock at the end of the world party.
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Shoot a $600 ar and then shoot a $2000 AR and then you will know why.
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I have I shot lots of $2000 AR's, Havent shot one yet worth it, until it can wash dishes!
To me its all how you use it!
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Its all about the shooter. I don't really think the rifle really matters except the quality of the parts that go into the $2,000 AR is better the $600 one.. I guess.
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Its all about the shooter. I don't really think the rifle really matters except the quality of the parts that go into the $2,000 AR is better the $600 one.. I guess.
Disagree. An 8 cylinder mustang will not outrun an 8 cylinder BMW M3 or Z06 vette. Tell me its the driver/shooter again? If this is the case, then why are there not cheap ass 50bmg and.338 Lapua rifles for all?
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Disagree. An 8 cylinder mustang will not outrun an 8 cylinder BMW M3 or Z06 vette. Tell me its the driver/shooter again? If this is the case, then why are there not cheap ass 50bmg and.338 Lapua rifles for all?
Wow sorry voodu didn't mean to make you mad man. You just proved my point. A BMW V8 has better quality parts and better quality engineering compared to the run of the mill ford mustang with a stock V8
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Wow sorry voodu didn't mean to make you mad man. You just proved my point. A BMW V8 has better quality parts and better quality engineering compared to the run of the mill ford mustang with a stock V8
you didnt make me mad bro, theres a reason they cost that much...the end result. A 3 moa rifle is exactly as described, same with a 1 or sub one, you get what you pay for. I went for the middle ( daniel defense). I will, however keep my BMWs.
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Hell I wouldn't give up the BMW either, but then again I don't have enough money for a Beamer.
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I had a 9 sec 1/4mi Mustang. Haven't seen too many BMW's go 9's
I also had a 11 Sec Rabbit....go figure... :stopjack:
My Modified Bushmaster is the best AR I have. Added a RRA 2-Stage Trigger and A custom Compensator
Total Spent $750
Havent shot another AR yet that I like.
Waiting for my Adcor Upper to come in. I am going to change the Comp on it to one of mine and see how that goes.
But the only reason I bought it is because of the front cocking.
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Mustangs and BMWs, just because the rifle will shoot sub moa doesn't mean the guy pulling the trigger can make it. You can buy the same driver as tiger woods but you probably wont make the tour next year.
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Mustangs and BMWs, just because the rifle will shoot sub moa doesn't mean the guy pulling the trigger can make it. You can buy the same driver as tiger woods but you probably wont make the tour next year.
at least he has the chance...3 MOA is 3 MOA.
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The bottom line is, the $600 AR probably isn't nearly as good as its owner would like to believe...and neither is the $2,000 one. But I don't know where people get the idea that sub-MOA accuracy is some magical degree of accuracy that's only achievable by a select few gifted individuals, and only on a good day. With a good rifle, and shooting off sandbags on the bench, it's really not out of the question for anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort to develop a good load and shoot often.
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The bottom line is, the $600 AR probably isn't nearly as good as its owner would like to believe...and neither is the $2,000 one. But I don't know where people get the idea that sub-MOA accuracy is some magical degree of accuracy that's only achievable by a select few gifted individuals, and only on a good day. With a good rifle, and shooting off sandbags on the bench, it's really not out of the question for anyone who's willing to put in the time and effort to develop a good load and shoot often.
its not magical. But having a good sub moa rifle sure helps the effort.
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In the heat of the moment when you have to shoot someone youre not thinking about a 1 MOA.
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its not magical. But having a good sub moa rifle sure helps the effort.
Aye, there's the rub. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I peeked into the gun safes of those who think MOA is magic, I'd see a lot of cheap rifles. Don't get me wrong, I think you get what you pay for, up to a point of diminishing returns. By the same token, I'll shoot a way better round of golf with a bag full of high-dollar Callaways than I will with a McGregor Junior Golf Set from Wally World.
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Hows this MOA with my glock .40 on a qualification. The misses is not really misses. I was imagining a crack head behind the target. LOL.... Gotta love those 2 sec, 5 yard double taps.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k219/dblnaknak/6b7447e8.jpg)
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I'm not a fan of the MOA I believe in MOP, minute of pig. I've never had to hit an inch spot on a hog. You may shoot a better round but tiger will still beat you using those mcgregors.
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In the heat of the moment when you have to shoot someone youre not thinking about a 1 MOA.
You're right, but why stack up compounding errors?
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Aye, there's the rub. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I peeked into the gun safes of those who think MOA is magic, I'd see a lot of cheap rifles. Don't get me wrong, I think you get what you pay for, up to a point of diminishing returns. By the same token, I'll shoot a way better round of golf with a bag full of high-dollar Callaways than I will with a McGregor Junior Golf Set from Wally World.
I suck at golfing. I go to escape the constant nagging from the wife and its the only place I can legally drink and drive.
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I'm not a fan of the MOA I believe in MOP, minute of pig. I've never had to hit an inch spot on a hog. You may shoot a better round but tiger will still beat you using those mcgregors.
Tiger would beat me with a shovel, rake, and baseball bat, Tin Cup style. However, is it really valid to say that because a given set of clubs won't make me the best golfer in the world, they aren't worth it? Same thing goes with rifles; I still won't be better than Carlos Hathcock, but I might just be better than the guy shooting back at me.
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I suck at golfing. I go to escape the constant nagging from the wife and its the only place I can legally drink and drive.
Yes. Drunken golf carts are the best thing about the sport.
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Its nice to have the top end gear like the diver that cost more than my entire set bag and all or that $2000 AR. But the clubs don't make the player neither does the rifle. I haven't played in 4 years, and buying a new set of calloways won't make me any better than my old Wilson's will If i played a round tomorrow.
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except for bragging rights a $2000 ar is a waste
most pople shoot bulk 3moa ammo or milspec which is also
3-4 moa ammo
reguardless of shooter or equipment the ammo is only so accurate
do "most " people who by a high end ar even know the twist rate on the barrel.... no
was the ar platform designed to be a sub moa rifle ...... no
with ars you get your monies worth for the first $700 spent the rest is just hype
And there it is...the definitive answer....fuck my life, time to take up cross-stitching. So thats why pro three gun shooters bring 700 buck rifles to competitions?
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I have a spikes 5.56 and spikes 6.8SPC both great ARs. 5.56 I shot my bag limit this goat season the 6.8SPC I took out four pigs and one as recent as Saturday. The 6.8SPC cost me $1500 the 5.56 cost me about $750 both really great rifles. For really great prices. I don't really care about MOA I do care about what I can shoot to put food on my family's table for the right price.
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if pro three gun guys were sponsored by marlin they might shoot a 336w.... but since they are sposored by highend ar companies thats what they shoot
also three gun is a sport with definite advantages for rate of fire and reduced recoil
i completely support anyones right to purchase an ar ant any price
the original post is about comparing the sacred tiers of ars
how do you quantify the advantages of a $2000 ar vs A $750 ar
the short answer is there are asthetic differences
rifles are made to shoot and if .5 inch at a 100yds is worth and extra $1000 then knock yourself out
Are you trying to say somebody wouldn't use an AR in 3 gun? Just because marlin gave them money. That's sacralig
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if pro three gun guys were sponsored by marlin they might shoot a 336w.... but since they are sposored by highend ar companies thats what they shoot
also three gun is a sport with definite advantages for rate of fire and reduced recoil
i completely support anyones right to purchase an ar ant any price
the original post is about comparing the sacred tiers of ars
how do you quantify the advantages of a $2000 ar vs A $750 ar
the short answer is there are asthetic differences
rifles are made to shoot and if .5 inch at a 100yds is worth and extra $1000 then knock yourself out
Done arguing. The difference isnt .5 at 100, its at 4 or 5 hundred.
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if pro three gun guys were sponsored by marlin they might shoot a 336w.... but since they are sposored by highend ar companies thats what they shoot
also three gun is a sport with definite advantages for rate of fire and reduced recoil
i completely support anyones right to purchase an ar ant any price
the original post is about comparing the sacred tiers of ars
how do you quantify the advantages of a $2000 ar vs A $750 ar
the short answer is there are asthetic differences
rifles are made to shoot and if .5 inch at a 100yds is worth and extra $1000 then knock yourself out
I have a $1700 AR. Thats including mags, Aimpoint optics, case, back up sights, and magpul furniture. I could care less about moa. I like to hear the ping of the metal targets that are at 250 yards. I also love my CMMG .22 LR conversion. Likely the best $200 I have spent. I just wish they would let me shoot my slide fire stock at the range. Damn rules.....
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Bring your cheap or expensive ARs and ammo to Puuloa and see how they do in a National Match Course. We are ready to teach when you are ready to learn.
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it all just depends on what you plan to do with the rifle and what your needs are. if you just want a superlight carbine that alows you to hit man size targets out to 500+ yards... getting a $600 AR will do the job.
as your expectations get higher though, and you want to shoot something smaller and smaller only taking 1 or 2 shots vs 10-30 to hit your target... you will need something with higher tolerances :)
but that doesnt mean you have to buy a "built" gun from noveske or LWRC to get that accuracy...
you just have to build a rifle with quality products that WILL still cost you more.
most importain things... barrel, free float rail, and trigger. (trigger is open to debate cause i rock a stock milspec trigger... but it does help a lot to have a good one)
example... normal barrel will cost you around $100... the barrel in my AR is made by White Oak Armament... and it cost $400+.
thats the beauty of ARs though... you can build it how you want it ;)
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and if you start changing calibers... 6.5 grenal... 6.5 SPblablabla... 6.8.... 300 blackout.... you are changing everything even more so.... so start out with what your want your rifle to do... and your budget.... and then just buy what works for you :)
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http://accuracyspeaks.com/index.htm (http://accuracyspeaks.com/index.htm)
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Because...
1/9 vs 1/7
Chrome Moly (or who knows what) vs 2x Chrome Lined (e.g., Noveske) or precision SS
Milspec trigger vs National Match trigger
Non-FF barrel vs Freefloating barrel
Unstaked vs properly staked gas key
Non-MPI vs Magnetically Particle Inspected bolts
China-made vs US-made furniture
...it all depends on the shooter's intent, shooter's ability, and shooter's budget. Nothing wrong with a cheapo just for plinking. Someone intending to fire 20k rounds a year or making those 600 yard shots might want something with more attention given during manufacturing.
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I still disagree. I can build a all USA gun for under $600 and hit dime size groups. Customer proved it a few weeks ago. dime size groups 100 yards.
Delton Upper 1/7 Chrome Lined BBL 16"
Spikes Tactical Lower
Bushmaster LPK
Ammo: Federal XM193
4x Scope
Was better than my H-Bar Bushmaster with 2 Stage Trigger, Chrome Bolt, Custom Compensator, Free Float, 20" Chrome BBL.
6-24x Scope.
So I just sold the Bushmaster for $2000
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I still disagree. I can build a all USA gun for under $600 and hit dime size groups. Customer proved it a few weeks ago. dime size groups 100 yards.
Delton Upper 1/7 Chrome Lined BBL 16"
Spikes Tactical Lower
Bushmaster LPK
Ammo: Federal XM193
4x Scope
Was better than my H-Bar Bushmaster with 2 Stage Trigger, Chrome Bolt, Custom Compensator, Free Float, 20" Chrome BBL.
6-24x Scope.
So I just sold the Bushmaster for $2000
im new to this forum so i will try to stay slightly under the radar... but dime size groups at 100yards with a standard AR? i would really like to see that :)
infact, if you could make a video to prove it... i would believe it :) or next time you come to big island or i go to yours lets hook up and see that :)
cause most bolt guns have a hard time shooting 1/4 MOA let alone a stock AR-15.
i personally dont think a bushmaster is worth 2k. so its good that you sold it. but if you were comparing your $600 build to a noveske or LWRC or a larue rifle that cost 2000+.... sorry, no matter what you say, you are just gonna sound crazy to anyone if you think your $600 build will shoot as good.
and furthermore... :) (i know this isnt staying under the radar like i said i would but i cant help it :) lol)
you cant take any rifle at 100 yards and expect to see its flaws... you shoot at 100 and its a good referance... but really, someone that doesnt know any better sees a 1"-2" group and doest realize that at 600+ that turns into a 7-12" group. (i know thats not perfect math... what im getting at is the rifle is true... its just the operator error for the most part) 300 everything starts to show. but 600-1k is where you really will see the quality of your rifle.
like i said before... if you want shoot a man size target (that means effective/consistant 10" group) at 500+ a $600 rifle will do the trick... but you have to put more money out when you wanna tighten up your groups... thats just fact. anyone that argues that... well.... :crazy:
and 1/7 1/9 etc twist rates... only affect velocity.... the quality of the make of the barrel determines the accuracy....
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Alrighty then. You know the accuracy is 75% shooter and 25% gun right. The 25% is trigger and action. A expensive gun is not going to make you a good shooter. I've seen 1000 yard shots with our old POS issue Vietnam era m-16 rifles. Physics tells you that the faster a bullet spins the flight is predictable and stable. So twist rate does matter. On the down side the bullet will have more drift with a faster spin but that doesn't come into effect until it starts to lose velocity and friction/ gravity becomes a big factor. Humidity, wind direction, and altitude also affects bullet flight. In the end it has nothing to do with the rifle. It comes down to the shooters ability to predict bullet flight in accordance with environmental factors at distance shots. If you think I'm wrong. Research it.
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Alrighty then. You know the accuracy is 75% shooter and 25% gun right. The 25% is trigger and action. A expensive gun is not going to make you a good shooter. I've seen 1000 yard shots with our old POS issue Vietnam era m-16 rifles. Physics tells you that the faster a bullet spins the flight is predictable and stable. So twist rate does matter. On the down side the bullet will have more drift with a faster spin but that doesn't come into effect until it starts to lose velocity and friction/ gravity becomes a big factor. Humidity, wind direction, and altitude also affects bullet flight. In the end it has nothing to do with t/he rifle. It comes down to the shooters ability to predict bullet flight in accordance with environmental factors at distance shots. If you think I'm wrong. Research it.
Come on, man. Go find me a winning competitive shooter at any level who's running a bone-stock, standard issue gun. Skill is a huge factor, and great shooters can do impressive things with sub-standard guns, but claiming the gun has nothing to do with the equation is asinine. I think you should probably do some research.
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:popcorn: :-X
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Alrighty then. You know the accuracy is 75% shooter and 25% gun right. The 25% is trigger and action. A expensive gun is not going to make you a good shooter. I've seen 1000 yard shots with our old POS issue Vietnam era m-16 rifles. Physics tells you that the faster a bullet spins the flight is predictable and stable. So twist rate does matter. On the down side the bullet will have more drift with a faster spin but that doesn't come into effect until it starts to lose velocity and friction/ gravity becomes a big factor. Humidity, wind direction, and altitude also affects bullet flight. In the end it has nothing to do with the rifle. It comes down to the shooters ability to predict bullet flight in accordance with environmental factors at distance shots. If you think I'm wrong. Research it.
im not saying its not possible to shoot a crappy rifle good :) and your completely correct saying that accuracy is 75% shooter etc.... and yes, you can hit at 1000 yards with a 2-5 MOA rifle at a man size target.
but its just fact that it will be a hell of a lot easyer with a rifle that shoots sub MOA. and again, if your know anyone who has a standard issue AR shooting sub MOA i would love to see it :) because thats a one in a million rifle. definatly keep that one.
as far as the twist rate goes... yes ive researched it. i just find that people get all crazy over it more then its importance. it does everything your saying...
but you take a high quality hand lapped barrel from the same maker, same barrel length... one being 1/7 twist the other being 1/8 twist and so forth... they will be very close to same accuracy if not identical in the fact that whats more likely changing is the barrel its self. you see more of the effects of the twist rate in the velocity or impact on target.
my point being if you want to improve accuracy... a high quality hand lapped barrel is going to do the trick more then the twist rate.... this guy is arguing that a standard barrel is as good a custom one!!!! lets tackle one issue before we move onto twist rates ;) lol
and when i say custom barrel i dont mean a DPMS bull barrel or any production bull barrel....
im talking WOA, bartlein, lilka, spartan, gap etc... and if your talking production then noveske LWRC etc is good too :)
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:popcorn: :-X
:popcorn: :o
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:popcorn: :o
lol :popcorn: too!
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Come on, man. Go find me a winning competitive shooter at any level who's running a bone-stock, standard issue gun. Skill is a huge factor, and great shooters can do impressive things with sub-standard guns, but claiming the gun has nothing to do with the equation is asinine. I think you should probably do some research.
I was taught that training, and have seen it first hand. You do the research to prove it wrong. :popcorn:
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:popcorn: :-X
:popcorn: :rofl:
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Why is a 2k ar better than a $600 one? I haven't been able to prove that the group sizes are proportionate to the price with my rifles so far. I would like to see a real comparison though. 600 yards would be a very good measure. 100 yards at Kokohead is just too short I think. Thought my rifle was good but took it to puuloa and while not upset, was not excited with its performance. No answer but am definitely interested in any physical evidence anyone can provide. Tighter and more consistent tolerances should yield tighter groups but are 3x smaller groups available? Don't think a self assembled rifle should be called a $600 gun. An off the shelf for $600 gun should be called a $600 gun. Manufacturers don't only make you pay for parts.
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Why is a 2k ar better than a $600 one? I haven't been able to prove that the group sizes are proportionate to the price with my rifles so far. I would like to see a real comparison though. 600 yards would be a very good measure. 100 yards at Kokohead is just too short I think. Thought my rifle was good but took it to puuloa and while not upset, was not excited with its performance. No answer but am definitely interested in any physical evidence anyone can provide. Tighter and more consistent tolerances should yield tighter groups but are 3x smaller groups available? Don't think a self assembled rifle should be called a $600 gun. An off the shelf for $600 gun should be called a $600 gun. Manufacturers don't only make you pay for parts.
well if you can figure out the hard math and how the groups grow... if you have a 1/4 MOA group at 100 yards (a TRUE 1/4 MOA) i believe it will spred out to about 5,6in at 1000 yards...
and if you have a 2-3 MOA group at 100 yards it turns into a 10-12+ group at 1000... so basically...
yes a good shooter can hit a man at 1000 yards with a stock standard AR...
but a good shooter should be able to make a head shot at 1000 yards with a "custom AR"...
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I was taught that training, and have seen it first hand. You do the research to prove it wrong. :popcorn:
Damn, I just got trolled, didn't I? Well played, sir, you had me going there!
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why is no one responding to my posts? :) do i have to have a certain number of post before anyone reads them in this forum? lol
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:popcorn:
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Shit might as well I fall inline.
:popcorn: :popcorn:
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why is no one responding to my posts? :) do i have to have a certain number of post before anyone reads them in this forum? lol
I haven't responded because I agree with everything you're saying. :thumbsup:
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I haven't responded because I agree with everything you're saying. :thumbsup:
lol awesome :) i figured you did :)
i just wasnt sure cause even the ones that dont agree arnt sayn anything :)
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lol awesome :) i figured you did :)
i just wasnt sure cause even the ones that dont agree arnt sayn anything :)
I think that's because we were being trolled. :(
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I was just sitting here with my tub of popcorn with extra heavy duty butter seeing where this went. :)
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I just ran out of :popcorn:
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we need a loco-moco bowl eating smiley
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we need a loco-moco bowl eating smiley
+1
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Bottom line is whatever floats your boat go for it.
People are going to spend what they want until the govt controls you.
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Bottom line is whatever floats your boat go for it.
People are going to spend what they want until the govt controls you.
I agree. For some people it's hard to accept that they spent 3000 on a rifle that shoots the same as a 600 rifle. :stopjack: JK.... How is it that this is a gun forum but we don't have any gun toting smileys.
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I agree. For some people it's hard to accept that they spent 3000 on a rifle that shoots the same as a 600 rifle. :stopjack: JK.... How is it that this is a gun forum but we don't have any gun toting smileys.
I saw a guy in a Ferrari today, and I couldn't help but laugh. That idiot could have saved a lot of money by just buying a V-6 Mustang instead. There's no difference between Mustangs and Ferraris, it all comes down to the driver.
A while back I saw some idiots on tv climbing Mount Everest, and you should have seen all the money those dummies wasted on rope, tents, oxygen masks, etc. You don't need nylon rope and super lightweight tents! It's all in the climber!
Anyway, have you ever priced out how cheap the bats and gloves are that major league baseball players use? Those guys understand that a stick is just a stick! People should really stop buying anything but the cheapest gear available; it all comes down to the person.
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I saw a guy in a Ferrari today, and I couldn't help but laugh. That idiot could have saved a lot of money by just buying a V-6 Mustang instead. There's no difference between Mustangs and Ferraris, it all comes down to the driver.
A while back I saw some idiots on tv climbing Mount Everest, and you should have seen all the money those dummies wasted on rope, tents, oxygen masks, etc. You don't need nylon rope and super lightweight tents! It's all in the climber!
Anyway, have you ever priced out how cheap the bats and gloves are that major league baseball players use? Those guys understand that a stick is just a stick! People should really stop buying anything but the cheapest gear available; it all comes down to the person.
Woop, woop, woop...
Sarcasm meter is tingling.
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a fool and his money are soon parted......... then that same fool is at the range with a 2k ar with a 1.5 k scope and pmags shooting wolf ammo
i think the original intent of this thread was more towards people pushing highend ars on new shooters that dont know any better.... but people taking it personnally is way more interesting
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Woop, woop, woop...
Sarcasm meter is tingling.
I thought I saw my sarcasm gauge spiking..
:popcorn: popcorn any one I just made a big ass tube with 100% clog your arteries butter. this is getting good. :popcorn: :)
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a fool and his money are soon parted......... then that same fool is at the range with a 2k ar with a 1.5 k scope and pmags shooting wolf ammo
i think the original intent of this thread was more towards people pushing highend ars on new shooters that dont know any better.... but people taking it personnally is way more interesting
i think ghost said it perfectly in his first part...
the shooter dictates the ability... and definatly people push high end ARs to new shooters... and thats retarded.
but... (get your :popcorn: out... lol. here is my foot.... driving into my mouth again... lol)
even though im not into cars... saying that a mustang can outdrive a farrari... or a suped up honda civic is bettter then a subaru WRX... or a climber with a tent verses a climber with no tent... or a shooter with a LWRC verses a shooter with a stock AR.... is still dumb!!!!
what you MEAN to say is that a shooter dictates the ability's...
a good driver is gonna drive a mustang better then a novice with a fararri... or a good driver is gonna drive a honda better then a novice with a WRX... a good climber/outdoors man will be able to do better and last longer then ME with every gadget known to man! AND a good shooter $600 AR... will outshoot a novice with his noveske/LWRC/REPER .50 cal heatseeking/guided rifle!!!! lol :D
a shooter dictates the ability!!!! dont confuse that with saying better gear is not as good as less quality gear!!!!
dont "knock" high end builds just because they are high end... if you shoot with a $600 AR.... and you see no difference shooting it... with a high end AR... to me.......... lol
that just shows your ability... and yes... lol stick with your $600 AR untill you are able to see the differance in accuracy...
(oh gosh im gonna get kicked off this forum and i dont even have 20 posts....lol)
but really... i say this from experiance from a friend of mine that shot my AR and his AR and couldnt tell the differance...
he simply couldnt tell because with his abilitys... he couldnt shoot more accuratly then the lower grade gun :)
so NO... no matter how you wanna try to put it.... a $600 AR CAN NOT OUTSHOOT A $2000 AR.
hehe :shaka:
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i think ghost said it perfectly in his first part...
the shooter dictates the ability... and definatly people push high end ARs to new shooters... and thats retarded.
but... (get your :popcorn: out... lol. here is my foot.... driving into my mouth again... lol)
even though im not into cars... saying that a mustang can outdrive a farrari... or a suped up honda civic is bettter then a subaru WRX... or a climber with a tent verses a climber with no tent... or a shooter with a LWRC verses a shooter with a stock AR.... is still dumb!!!!
what you MEAN to say is that a shooter dictates the ability's...
a good driver is gonna drive a mustang better then a novice with a fararri... or a good driver is gonna drive a honda better then a novice with a WRX... a good climber/outdoors man will be able to do better and last longer then ME with every gadget known to man! AND a good shooter $600 AR... will outshoot a novice with his noveske/LWRC/REPER .50 cal heatseeking/guided rifle!!!! lol :D
a shooter dictates the ability!!!! dont confuse that with saying better gear is not as good as less quality gear!!!!
dont "knock" high end builds just because they are high end... if you shoot with a $600 AR.... and you see no difference shooting it... with a high end AR... to me.......... lol
that just shows your ability... and yes... lol stick with your $600 AR untill you are able to see the differance in accuracy...
(oh gosh im gonna get kicked off this forum and i dont even have 20 posts....lol)
but really... i say this from experiance from a friend of mine that shot my AR and his AR and couldnt tell the differance...
he simply couldnt tell because with his abilitys... he couldnt shoot more accuratly then the lower grade gun :)
so NO... no matter how you wanna try to put it.... a $600 AR CAN NOT OUTSHOOT A $2000 AR.
hehe :shaka:
Woop, woop, woop
My "Damn, this guy likes to hear himself talk" meter is tingling. :rofl:
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a $600 AR CAN NOT OUTSHOOT A $2000 AR.
I still disagree! :shaka:
It is just like a car. It's the nut behind the Wheel or Trigger that counts!
BTW: What is your definition of OUTSHOOT?
I had a contest back in the day at the Honolulu Gun Club. We took a POS $50 Bryco 25ACP and each participant had only 5 shots. (1 practice sessions 5 rounds each person before the Final)
The target was at 40 Feet. Ed Masaki won. All 5 shots went in the X-Ring. I couldn't believe it. It's all about how you use it. Not what it is. Any gun can be accurate and if the bullet hits you.
You will either be hurt or dead. Respect the gun.
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I saw a guy in a Ferrari today, and I couldn't help but laugh. That idiot could have saved a lot of money by just buying a V-6 Mustang instead. There's no difference between Mustangs and Ferraris, it all comes down to the driver.
A while back I saw some idiots on tv climbing Mount Everest, and you should have seen all the money those dummies wasted on rope, tents, oxygen masks, etc. You don't need nylon rope and super lightweight tents! It's all in the climber!
Anyway, have you ever priced out how cheap the bats and gloves are that major league baseball players use? Those guys understand that a stick is just a stick! People should really stop buying anything but the cheapest gear available; it all comes down to the person.
Just because you drive a Ferrari does not make you a better driver. The mustang still gets the driver from point a to point b in the same amount of time. The mustang does it better because it is cheaper on gas and the maintance is way cheaper. :thumbsup:
40 years ago people climbed mount Everett with regular ropes and regular tents. Most of the records were set then.
Why is it that many of the famous major league baseball players still use the same WOOD BAT that has not changed its design in many years.
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The next Puuloa Match is 25 March if anyone wants see how their hardware holds up at 600 yards.
Talk is cheap. An NRA 800 aggregate course is $30 and takes 88 rounds of ammo.
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wow ::)
in that case i really did just wast my breath lol.
you keep saying stuff like "i took a beater old crappy gun a shot it better then 'this guy' with his high end AR"
i am not saying YOU are not a good shooter!!!! you probably are amAZing... especially if you took that .25ACP and did good with it.
you are an amazing shooter :worship: im not doubting your abiblitys...
im just saying your line of reasoning is not correct when your talking about gear :)
and ANYone that doesnt agree with the few things ive posted... well... :wtf:
as far as im concerned this thread is :closed: lol
and talk IS cheap... whoever it was that mentioned that... i would invite ANYone on here that doesnt agree with me about this to meet up at the range and compare shot groups with a junky AR and a quality AR :) and if you cant see the difference in your groups... dont worry... you will when i shoot my groups ;) lol
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For the purpose of discussion, let's take the shooter out of the equation as much as possible. I don't care who could beat who at what, or with what. Take a finely-tuned, high-end AR (Teichi probably has one... lol) and shoot, say, ten five-shot groups for an average. Then take an el-cheapo rifle and do that same thing; your groups will open up with the lower quality rifle. That's all I've been trying to say this entire time; someone, probably lots of someones, could beat me with a cheap rifle, but they'll beat me even worse with a good one. That's why a $2,000 AR is better than a $600 AR, and that's what you're paying the extra $1400 for. Is it possible that one specific cheap AR could outshoot another specific high-end one? Of course, but that's completely anecdotal and irrelevant, not to mention very, very rare. If you drop two grand on a LaRue OBR, it's virtually impossible that you won't see an improvement in your group size over your bargain bin AR.
I really don't know what's so hard to comprehend about this. Ferrari is better than Mustang, the Abrams tank is better than the T-72, and high-end ARs are better than cheap ones.
The question is not whether LaRue, Noveske, et al, are better than the competition, it's whether those rifles are worth the extra money. They may or may not be; if you're just going to bring it to HDF fun shoots and blast targets on the run from fifteen yards away, they're probably not. But if you're going to painstakingly develop the optimum handloaded ammo and take Teichi up on his offers to compete in the Puuloa matches, it probably is.
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.................so NO... no matter how you wanna try to put it.... a $600 AR CAN NOT OUTSHOOT A $2000 AR.
hehe :shaka:
Feed your $4,000 AR junk ammo and it will shoot like.............well.............junk................
It's not a simple argument. There are points made both ways about this situation.
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Speaking of AR's, I just built a sweetie.
Pics coming soon :geekdanc:
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Are f class shooters invited to march 25 match? I'm assuming everyone is talking about an ar with optics so that would be f class right? 556 or 308. If everyone here is talking about rifles with irons then no prob. Appropriate for march 25. Would be nice to get more ar company in f class. Outnumbered by bolt 308 guys. I know I'm not competitive with my rifle but hey, 200 yards further than Kokohead. Need to bring at least 22 rounds of 77 grainers though for the 600. 55 grainers go subsonic somewhere around 4-500 yards. They just end up flying all over the place after that. Anyone interested in going? I'm lazy and like to lie down all day that's why I do f class. The iron sights guys do way too much work standing and sitting and standing and prone. Puuloa rifle and pistol club has info on their site.
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Feed your $4,000 AR junk ammo and it will shoot like.............well.............junk................
hahaha Good One!
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Feed your $4,000 AR junk ammo and it will shoot like.............well.............junk................
It's not a simple argument. There are points made both ways about this situation.
According to one poster, it doesnt matter the cost of ammo, barrel, trigger or sights.
So they should be able to outshoot a match barrel, match trigger and match ammo with a rusty barrel, cheap trigger and junk ammo.
(stirring the pot) :geekdanc:
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one request, can we stop with the "... is better than a Mustang"? I get it!
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one request, can we stop with the "... is better than a Mustang"? I get it!
All hail the mighty Mustang.
The greatest American muscle car ever made. :worship:
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All hail the mighty Mustang.
The greatest American muscle car ever made. :worship:
all hail the pinto it will blow your mind. ;)
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hahah the Chevy/Mustang argument.....been there done that.....OMG.....
Put a Chevy SB motor in Mustang then you have a car.....Purist hate me.... :stopjack:
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Whats a junky AR?
If I had a Junky AR why would I want to put it up against any other AR?
The $600 AR is not a Junk to me. It is just basic. but it has a good barrel. That's all that matters to me.
I actually do own a Junky AR. It is a 5.56 11.6" BBL with a welded 5.5" Flash Hider. It came with a POS 4x NC Star Scope. Someone on the forums traded it to me.
so I added my composite lower to it (Considered Junk to most of you guys!) went out to KHSC with some XM193 and shot quarter size groups at 100 yards.
was surprised at the grouping. I then started shooting at the gong 1.5 mil high on the scope and hit it on the first shot and the 30 shots after that. to me the upper is dated.
but it works and I could not find anything junky about it.
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hahah the Chevy/Mustang argument.....been there done that.....OMG.....
Put a Chevy SB motor in Mustang then you have a car.....Purist hate me.... :stopjack:
The best motor in the world is the SB Chevy! Yes I'll take the flaming. :grrr: Just take the evolution of the Corvette with a SB and you'll see there is very little wrong or bad you can say about the SB Chevy. World class super car at a (relatively speaking) bargain price.
I'm a Chevy guy but one of the best motors in the world is the Boss 302. That motor (in my opinion) really put the Mustang on the map. Otherwise, before that it was just an economy car with a sexy body. The Mustang and Camaro with BB's were fast but could not handle or stop worth crap. But they sure as hell could go fast in a straight line. But put a high revving SB in those cars and they could not only go fast in a straight line but they could handle decently (consider the fact that this was the mid 60's). I won't compare those cars to what we have today.
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The best motor in the world is the SB Chevy! Yes I'll take the flaming. :grrr: Just take the evolution of the Corvette with a SB and you'll see there is very little wrong or bad you can say about the SB Chevy. World class super car at a (relatively speaking) bargain price.
I'm a Chevy guy but one of the best motors in the world is the Boss 302. That motor (in my opinion) really put the Mustang on the map. Otherwise, before that it was just an economy car with a sexy body. The Mustang and Camaro with BB's were fast but could not handle or stop worth crap. But they sure as hell could go fast in a straight line. But put a high revving SB in those cars and they could not only go fast in a straight line but they could handle decently (consider the fact that this was the mid 60's). I won't compare those cars to what we have today.
Popcorn anybody? This getting better. :popcorn:
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one request, can we stop with the "... is better than a Mustang"? I get it!
Haha, sorry bro. I'm done.
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I had way too much problems with squeezing 900 HP from a 5.0L Ford. Take 1 month to prep the motor and 9 seconds to blow it.
Go to the Chevy and no problems....plus Chevy parts are cheaper....
:stopjack: :stopjack: :stopjack:
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I prefer a turbo diseal. Last car cruise I was on guy was eating up hondas in his letter dodge.
In regards to a $600vs $2000 one I just picked up a few of the stripped lowers ogc had for sale so interesting to see everyone's point of view. Got my DD triggers coming in soon so that should be done for the lower. Neither sure what to do with the upper yet.
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I prefer a turbo diseal. Last car cruise I was on guy was eating up hondas in his letter dodge.
In regards to a $600vs $2000 one I just picked up a few of the stripped lowers ogc had for sale so interesting to see everyone's point of view. Got my DD triggers coming in soon so that should be done for the lower. Neither sure what to do with the upper yet.
Haha, I've been on a build frenzy since I got my Noveske lower. :thumbsup:
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My National Match AR is was $700 cash and carry model being sold by Armalite at a National Guard competition. I didn't have that much cash so Armalite charged $720 on my credit card. It's a good rifle. I put it on par with the $2000 rifles that are built for NM shooting. The heart of a rifle's accuracy is the barrel. It's tough to find a quality barrel for under $400 these days and price doesn't always man you get a good barrel. You just need to shoot it to see how it groups with different ammo. Good gunsmiths charge $2000 for their guns because they guarantee their accuracy and that takes time, ammo and skill.
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My National Match AR is was $700 cash and carry model being sold by Armalite at a National Guard competition. I didn't have that much cash so Armalite charged $720 on my credit card. It's a good rifle. I put it on par with the $2000 rifles that are built for NM shooting. The heart of a rifle's accuracy is the barrel. It's tough to find a quality barrel for under $400 these days and price doesn't always man you get a good barrel. You just need to shoot it to see how it groups with different ammo. Good gunsmiths charge $2000 for their guns because they guarantee their accuracy and that takes time, ammo and skill.
Interesting, thanks for the info!
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Feed your $4,000 AR junk ammo and it will shoot like.............well.............junk................
It's not a simple argument. There are points made both ways about this situation.
yes your right :) and that is ANOTHER DIFFERENT DISCUSSION :)
but take same ammo... same shooter... high end AR.... low end AR... and the high end AR will shoot better! period!!!!
why does everyone bring up different things?!!?
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one request, can we stop with the "... is better than a Mustang"? I get it!
lol
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this is crazy :) i think the problem in this discussion is some peeps are too prideful to say that yes... everytime a good point is made against me... what do i say? i say, "hey your right! :)" but whats funny... is the points you guys bring up are factors yes... but they dont give reason the the OPs actual question... "why is a $2000 AR better then a $600 one? and the only reason i keep going at this, is because it seams like the majority of you are one of those guys that is saying... "im a dame good shooter... and i will outshoot all these lil wipersnapers with there $2000 ARs!"
granted, yes you may! but you can not defy the FACTS...
if conditions where exactly the same, IN EVERY ASPECT, the same:
shooter
ammo
barrel length
twist rate
whatever you are gonna tell me i forgot after this post!!! lol
IF EVERY variable is the same...
a low end (or cheaper costing) AR is not going to be able to shoot as good as groups as a high end (or more expesive) AR.
the guy that spent $700 on his national match AR... THAT IS A MORE ESPENSIVE AR!!! and it outshoots a NON-national match AR...
sure, someone can buy a $600 AR... turn around and sell it for $2000... and that wont be any better....
we are comparing the quality of the firearm... NOT the price.... but price comes into play because generally a higher quality firearm is more expensive... why? because more time was spent into making it!!!! which makes it more quality and better!!!!
but what is amusing to me on top of all of this... are those of you that are in the frame of mind that, "im a dame good shooter... and i will outshoot all these lil wipersnapers with there $2000 ARs!".... you are so stuck on that fact... and you are fighting it, not seeing the reality is that as technology gets better... gear gets better. true, sometimes people come out with stuff that doesnt really show that big of an improvement. and depending on how much more money they ask, it may not justify as WORTH IT to the individual shooter...
but thats just it... this is not a discussion of price... on if YOU think its worth it or not to have a upgrade on your firearm... the descussion really boils down to, does it make the firearm better or not.... does it make it more accurate or not....
and the answer is YES!!!!!!! a larue OBR shoots more accurately then a DPMS sportacal, or daystar, or any $600 AR.
now... as a individual shooter... the amount of improvement in accuracy may not be enough to justify spending $1500 MORE... but... that doesnt mean, the more expensive one is not more accurate...
im just as broke as you guys. actually im probably MORE BROKE! lol
i can NOT justify spending $2000+ on a AR...
but i also can not justify FACTS... and the fact IS... "why is a $2000 AR better than a $600 one?" well re read ALL my freaking posts if you still dont know lol and if your to stubborn to agree... or at least see the gist of what it is im saying... then :shaka:
we all live another day :crazy: :geekdanc: O0 :grrr: :-* ;D :wave: :rofl: :shake:
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hahah the Chevy/Mustang argument.....been there done that.....OMG.....
Put a Chevy SB motor in Mustang then you have a car.....Purist hate me.... :stopjack:
............and yet you'd never hear of a Chevy guy dropping a Ford motor into their car.................. :D
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yes your right :) and that is ANOTHER DIFFERENT DISCUSSION :)
but take same ammo... same shooter... high end AR.... low end AR... and the high end AR will shoot better! period!!!!
why does everyone bring up different things?!!?
I respectfully disagree. Very few times is the firearms argument a simple one. There are just some guns that shoot good even if they are cheap. There are also some really expensive guns that shoot like poop. It's just the way it is.
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yes :) the "occasional" exception to the rule is always there. as i said, if you your ar is a "shooter..." awesome! keep it!
i had a reminton 5R stock, that outshot my friends rem700 that he has droped over $3000 into.
that was not the point of my posts or the reason to the answer of "why is a $2000 AR better than a $600 one"
it has been made clear your point that a "cheaper gun" CAN be as good as a more expensive one...
but if you have 10 standard ARs... yes 1 might have tuned out to be that magic rifle... that shoots as good as a larue OBR.... but what about the 9 others?
i know 3 other friends that bought a rem5R same time i did.
mine shot a TRUE 1/4 MOA.
theirs all shot about 1/2-3/4 MOA
guys spend 600-1200 on a rifle that will guarantee 1MOA...
and some guys spend 3000-6000 on a rifle that will guarantee 1/4 MOA
my 5R proved what your saying.... yes. a cheaper rifle can shoot as good or sometimes even better then a more expensive rifle...
but its not the norm.
so when your asking a "general" question of why is a $2000 AR better then a $600 AR"...
the GENERAL answer is simply it is better build with more quality parts that make it more accurate...
(yes there are expeptions!)
no? :-\
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............and yet you'd never hear of a Chevy guy dropping a Ford motor into their car.................. :D
lol so true! :D
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............and yet you'd never hear of a Chevy guy dropping a Ford motor into their car.................. :D
hahaha I never seen that.....in all my years of engine swaps.
I still have my Toyota Motor in a Mercedes....that I built in 1985 :stopjack:
To me a lower is a lower. Maybe the game changer is the buffer. But depends on the setup.
The Heart is in the barrel and the Bolt. ER Shaw makes all the barrels for nearly everyone.
Some Rifle Manufacturers take the barrels and do thier mods to it
(cyro, Nitride & flute or what have you) maybe that makes the barrel better who knows?
Don't get me wrong I have shot $2-3000 AR's and to me its a AR. Feels like an AR
Kicks no different than another AR. And it still has to be maintained like an AR.
Because its an AR!
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^^^I built a varmint gun. Didn't start off as an expensive build. I ended up with a Shilen barrel, DD kit, Geiselle DMR trigger, etc.
Well I take that sucker out to shoot it and had a jam fest. Come to find out my reloads weren't what they should have been. A bit too far off on the resizing.
Well I throw that very same ammo into my cheapy AR and it feeds and goes boom. So for me, my sub moa varmint rifle did not even fire, but that very same exact ammo was fine with my other cheap AR. So yeah, I don't believe expensive firearms always mean better accuracy/precision.
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^^^I built a varmint gun. Didn't start off as an expensive build. I ended up with a Shilen barrel, DD kit, Geiselle DMR trigger, etc.
Well I take that sucker out to shoot it and had a jam fest. Come to find out my reloads weren't what they should have been. A bit too far off on the resizing.
Well I throw that very same ammo into my cheapy AR and it feeds and goes boom. So for me, my sub moa varmint rifle did not even fire, but that very same exact ammo was fine with my other cheap AR. So yeah, I don't believe expensive firearms always mean better accuracy/precision.
Accuracy and reliability are two totally different things. Feeding and going boom does not equal accuracy. I would be interested to know how the varminter shot when it did feed; was the accuracy improved over the cheaper rifle?
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^^^I built a varmint gun. Didn't start off as an expensive build. I ended up with a Shilen barrel, DD kit, Geiselle DMR trigger, etc.
Well I take that sucker out to shoot it and had a jam fest. Come to find out my reloads weren't what they should have been. A bit too far off on the resizing.
Well I throw that very same ammo into my cheapy AR and it feeds and goes boom. So for me, my sub moa varmint rifle did not even fire, but that very same exact ammo was fine with my other cheap AR. So yeah, I don't believe expensive firearms always mean better accuracy/precision.
sounds like its a headspacing issue?
but that to me is the difference between a "home" build and a build by the high end companys. yes the parts might be the same... but for whatever reason yours didnt go together properly...
the guys at noveske or larue put it together... it messes up... they fix it untill it IS reliable...
see you just gave up and didnt try to fix it...
its the same concept as a 1911...
if it goes together with NOT high tollerances, (like a rock river ARMs. oh god i hope this doesnt start a 1911 battle lol) it is generally more reliable. little play in the slide to frame fit ect...
but a 1911 put together by wilsoncombat or nighthawk... it has high tollerances but also is FINE FITTED so that it is reliable as well... AND shoots 1in groups at 25yards (vs 5"groups)
same with ARs... yea you can throw a bunch of high end parts together and it may end up shooting good. (thats what i did and i didnt have to worry about it) but thats the difference when you have someone that has been putting guns together for a long time... if something doesnt work right... they know what it is to fix it.
so dont give up on your varmit rifle!!! figure it out. make it reliable. so you have both. reliability AND accuracy. :)
but dont git rid of your "lower end" AR. because next time you do crappy loads again, youll still have the shitty one to shoot the shitty ammo! :D
great for a carbine class and drills! :)
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or maybe you want the malfunctions... so that way you can work on rifle manipulations :)
hey you can always give your crappy loads to me :D ill use em. ill keep them in a box to throw occationally in with my good ammo when im doing drills so i will be forced to do malfunction drills! :D
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Check out 6mmAR.com and search for "Robert Whitley and what makes an accurate AR".
Come down and shoot at Puuloa 200, 300, and 600 yards. Bring your expensive AR or budget AR. You can spend as little or as much as you want on your AR, in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.
F-class with optics, ten ring is 1 MOA and the X ring is 1/2 MOA. I seen some posts that was saying that a 1/4 gun will shoot 1/4 at 500 or 600 even 1000. Not true at all. A lot of other factors come into play at longer distance. With an AR you need the right ammunition to make it to 600. 55 grain ball will not do. An AR with a standard length barrel and standard quick twists has no chance of 1K unless you are running WAY hot.(danger zone hot!). A .308 will barely make it to 1000 yards BTW. Wind will become a huge factor at these distances as well.
So instead of arguing, shooting groups at point blank range(100yards is point blank for a rifle with a optic IMHO), and speculating, folks should come out and experience a little 'MID Range' shooting at Puuloa. It will certainly bring some things into perspective.
:shaka:
...expensive or cheap...in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.
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Check out 6mmAR.com and search for "Robert Whitley and what makes an accurate AR".
Come down and shoot at Puuloa 200, 300, and 600 yards. Bring your expensive AR or budget AR. You can spend as little or as much as you want on your AR, in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.
F-class with optics, ten ring is 1 MOA and the X ring is 1/2 MOA. I seen some posts that was saying that a 1/4 gun will shoot 1/4 at 500 or 600 even 1000. Not true at all. A lot of other factors come into play at longer distance. With an AR you need the right ammunition to make it to 600. 55 grain ball will not do. An AR with a standard length barrel and standard quick twists has no chance of 1K unless you are running WAY hot.(danger zone hot!). A .308 will barely make it to 1000 yards BTW. Wind will become a huge factor at these distances as well.
So instead of arguing, shooting groups at point blank range(100yards is point blank for a rifle with a optic IMHO), and speculating, folks should come out and experience a little 'MID Range' shooting at Puuloa. It will certainly bring some things into perspective.
:shaka:
...expensive or cheap...in the end all that matters is consisency and reliability.
agree! :) but i think we need clarification on the MOA thing. i was the one that said 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards.
i thought MOA was just a form of measurement? the equation that gives you a MOA grows as you increase the distance. but the sizing of MOA is still the same.
example:
1/4 MOA at 100 yards is exactly that. 1 quarter inch group at 100 yards...
but
1/4 MOA at say 600 yards actually on paper shows a grouping size of 2 or 3"... but its still called a 1/4 MOA group...
someone clarify this for me! cause that changes my whole concept of a minute of angle measurement!!!!
but yea 1/4 MOA group at 100 is 1/4... 300 is 2".... 600 is 3"... 800 is 5" 1000 yards the group ends up mesuring close to 6 or 7"... but it is still a 1/4MOA group cause the "minute of angle equation" grows as your distance grows...
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and those arnt exact numbers... thats just off my head giving the general idea of how the "measurement of MOA" is the same.... but the grouping size gets larger as you get further.
which is why i understand when someone sees only 1 inch group and a 3 inch group at 100 yards... they naturally think a $2000 rifle is not worth the difference in group size.
but not understanding that yes we are only talking 1 or 2 inch difference at 100 yards... but as you get further out and more distance... the MOA measurement changes and your 2-3MOA rifle is only capable of consistently hitting a 2foot group at 1000 yards....
like i said from the beginning if all you need to do is hit a man size target at 1000 yards... a standard AR is capable of doing that.
but if you want to consistently (yes ive said before there are occasional magic rifles out there) smaller groups then that... you need to upgrade your firearm.
some people dont wanna put a rifle together...
like for example home boy that talked about his varmit rifle being unreliable. he needs to put more time in it to make it reliable. BUT some people dont wanna spend there time in "building" the rifle... so what do they do...
they buy a $2000 AR :)
remember people... i dont own a $2000 AR... i just understand the benefits of it :)
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i had a reminton 5R stock, that outshot my friends rem700 that he has droped over $3000 into.
i know 3 other friends that bought a rem5R same time i did.
mine shot a TRUE 1/4 MOA.
theirs all shot about 1/2-3/4 MOA
guys spend 600-1200 on a rifle that will guarantee 1MOA...
and some guys spend 3000-6000 on a rifle that will guarantee 1/4 MOA
my 5R proved what your saying.... yes. a cheaper rifle can shoot as good or sometimes even better then a more expensive rifle...
I LOVE MY 5R!!!! I found the right loading for it and it shoots 5 shot one hole groups at 50yds I have not tried it at 100yds yet. It shoots Federal NATO Ball 5 shots into a less than 1/2" hole at 50yds. And I paid $775 for it. I know you can't compare a bolt gun to a semi auto but it just goes to show you there are other options than an AR at an extremely reasonable price. OKAY, back to the subject. :stopjack:
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remember people... i dont own a $2000 AR... i just understand the benefits of it :)
are you sure? your scope is like 1500... lol
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are you sure? your scope is like 1500... lol
lol that wasnt my personal optic :) i was just testing it for vortex ;)
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lol that wasnt my personal optic :) i was just testing it for vortex ;)
haha.. no wonder you dropped it on rocks.. good shit :rofl:
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I would rather have a 600 Ak then a 600 AR.
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agree! :) but i think we need clarification on the MOA thing. i was the one that said 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards.
i thought MOA was just a form of measurement? the equation that gives you a MOA grows as you increase the distance. but the sizing of MOA is still the same.
example:
1/4 MOA at 100 yards is exactly that. 1 quarter inch group at 100 yards...
but
1/4 MOA at say 600 yards actually on paper shows a grouping size of 2 or 3"... but its still called a 1/4 MOA group...
someone clarify this for me! cause that changes my whole concept of a minute of angle measurement!!!!
but yea 1/4 MOA group at 100 is 1/4... 300 is 2".... 600 is 3"... 800 is 5" 1000 yards the group ends up mesuring close to 6 or 7"... but it is still a 1/4MOA group cause the "minute of angle equation" grows as your distance grows...
I believe you mean that the equation stays the same. 1 MOA at 100 yards is aprroximately 1", 1 MOA at 300 yards is approximately 3", 1 MOA at 1000 yards is approximately 10". Therefore, a 1/4 MOA group at 1000 yards is around 2.5".
Group size of 2.5" @ 1000 yards is world class. Heavy benchrest shooters have a hard time doing that.
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and those arnt exact numbers... thats just off my head giving the general idea of how the "measurement of MOA" is the same.... but the grouping size gets larger as you get further.
which is why i understand when someone sees only 1 inch group and a 3 inch group at 100 yards... they naturally think a $2000 rifle is not worth the difference in group size.
but not understanding that yes we are only talking 1 or 2 inch difference at 100 yards... but as you get further out and more distance... the MOA measurement changes and your 2-3MOA rifle is only capable of consistently hitting a 2foot group at 1000 yards....
like i said from the beginning if all you need to do is hit a man size target at 1000 yards... a standard AR is capable of doing that.
but if you want to consistently (yes ive said before there are occasional magic rifles out there) smaller groups then that... you need to upgrade your firearm.
some people dont wanna put a rifle together...
like for example home boy that talked about his varmit rifle being unreliable. he needs to put more time in it to make it reliable. BUT some people dont wanna spend there time in "building" the rifle... so what do they do...
they buy a $2000 AR :)
remember people... i dont own a $2000 AR... i just understand the benefits of it :)
Now if you have a 2 MOA rifle firing in a vice, with no air, or wind, or any other type of an effect on bullet travel, on a day when the sun moon and stars align in perfect harmony you might be able to pull off a 24" group at 1k.
A normal AR 15 cannot push a bullet fast enough to be remotely accurate at 1000 yards. I doubt the bullet will even hit the target.
A bolt gun shooting 90 grainers at max pressure can do it but in a normal AR 15, I highly doubt it would be anywhere near consistent. And probably highly dangerous.
World class shooters keep 20 rounds within that 20" circle, in wind, rain, sun, heat, with iron sights and a sling! This is not done with any 2 MOA rifle. The rifle has to be top notch, certified sub 1/4 MOA rifle, OCD handloads, and a ton of skill and concentration. They do not use AR 15s.
I haven't been able to streach out to 1k yet, i hope to try some day, I had a rifle built specifically for it, but to get a rifle round accurately out there time after time is no small feat.
That is why I say for people to try out our club matches. Even with very light wind, I promise you, your AR experience will be humbling. ;D
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I believe you mean that the equation stays the same. 1 MOA at 100 yards is aprroximately 1", 1 MOA at 300 yards is approximately 3", 1 MOA at 1000 yards is approximately 10". Therefore, a 1/4 MOA group at 1000 yards is around 2.5".
Group size of 2.5" @ 1000 yards is world class. Heavy benchrest shooters have a hard time doing that.
?
Yes! That's what I mean :)
I was a little confused when he said "some people are saying they got 1/4 moan groups" and thought he was talking about me saying I got that with my bolt gun. Which I did once :) but only at 100yards so wind wasn't much a factor.
Ar on the other hand... im hoping to get under 1moa... well see when my next optic comes in :)
Believe me I KNOW its humbling. I've shot with NCPPRC in Sacramento quite a bit and took my 5Rmom out to 1K. My best shots at 1K WITH a bolt gun was a 18" group. Which I know isn't amazing but I was happy with it. Kept the target :)
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And what I mean by 18"group is 4 out of 6 shots where actually on my man target :) the others... well let's not worry about them :rofl:
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Think 1/4 moa is 1.5" at 600.
2-3" groups are still much better than I get. :'(
My rifle wasn't bought whole, it was home built and while all the components didn't come out to 2k, it did come out to a bunch more than 1k. The glass was about same as the rifle. It feeds on ssa 77 gr. Otm's.
Right now "i'm" getting 3/4 - 1/2 moa groups when I'm doing good. When im not doing so good ... well lets just say ive gotten a miss before. That target frame is huge but its possible. I wouldn't be surprised if someone could do better with that rifle but rifle matches aren't the measure of the rifle are they? Its my rifle so I measure it by what I can shoot with it. Btw, that's with optics. I'm kinda scared how horrible I'd do with irons.
Can people start listing their components for their 1/4 moa rifles. Maybe pictures. Especially the $600-$1000 ones. I would really like to be competitive in f class with an ar since everyone else so far is using bolt guns. Ar guys need more representation!
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^^ my British friend did fairly well with his POF in tactical match. But it was .308. ;)
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Accuracy and reliability are two totally different things. Feeding and going boom does not equal accuracy. I would be interested to know how the varminter shot when it did feed; was the accuracy improved over the cheaper rifle?
I disagree. If the gun doesn't even go boom, then it's neither accurate nor precise.
Anyhow varminter.............I don't shoot it a lot but it's a 1:7 twist. I built it to shoot 70+ grain ammo. 55 sucked and 70+ wasn't encouraging, however it is still so low in the round count that conceivably it's still in the break in period. 62 grain soft tip, bulk reloads however were pretty friggen tight. I would say 1/2 to 3/4 moa..............better than me in other words.
sounds like its a headspacing issue?
but that to me is the difference between a "home" build and a build by the high end companys. yes the parts might be the same... but for whatever reason yours didnt go together properly...
the guys at noveske or larue put it together... it messes up... they fix it untill it IS reliable...
see you just gave up and didnt try to fix it..........................
Wasn't headspacing, it was case a sizing issue. The gun was put together properly, the issue is that the chamber on the Shilen barrel is so tight that the reloads did not work, but they worked in my AR. The barrel comes with a matched bolt............that tight.
So yes same exact ammo, the expensive fully operational varmint gun was outshot by the cheap AR. As I said before there are a lot of issues with the general "this is always better than that" argument and especially with regards to firearms. As I said before some guns like some ammo better than the rest. Right now the varmint gun loves 62 grain soft points. As the barrel breaks in I expect that to shift to 70+ grain ammo. One more item about precision shooting (precision meaning repeatability and accuracy meaning how close you get to your intended point of impact), there is a huge amount of that tied up with the ammo and what that particular firearm likes. So even with the same ammo, if you change the bullet overall length (playing with how close.touching the bullet comes to the rifling in the barrel)/powder charge/type of power, you can get wildly different results. So IMHO the same ammo argument doesn't really hold water.
Don't be trapped into the $$$$ = high quality argument.
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or maybe you want the malfunctions... so that way you can work on rifle manipulations :)
hey you can always give your crappy loads to me :D ill use em. ill keep them in a box to throw occationally in with my good ammo when im doing drills so i will be forced to do malfunction drills! :D
Man this was full on ammo jammed in the chamber malfunctions. It was a turn the rifle vertical, ride the charging handle and rap the butt on the table to clear the rifle malfunctions.................then I threw the suckers into the other rifle and yup no issues feeding, firing, and extracting the cartridge.
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?
Yes! That's what I mean :)
I was a little confused when he said "some people are saying they got 1/4 moan groups" and thought he was talking about me saying I got that with my bolt gun. Which I did once :) but only at 100yards so wind wasn't much a factor.
Ar on the other hand... im hoping to get under 1moa... well see when my next optic comes in :)
Believe me I KNOW its humbling. I've shot with NCPPRC in Sacramento quite a bit and took my 5Rmom out to 1K. My best shots at 1K WITH a bolt gun was a 18" group. Which I know isn't amazing but I was happy with it. Kept the target :)
The norm for moa is grouping at 100 yds. Loads start to stabilize/destabilize at different distances, so a tight group at 100 yds might be junk at 300 yds, whereas a so-so group at 100 yds may start looking better and better the farther out you go. Shooting real precision type stuff that Teichi/Ren do is really hard and I believe a lot of guys have no idea how hard until they've shot at distance.
Anyhow.................18" group @ 1,000 yds what are you talking about man??!! That's some friggen good shooting there. I don't care what you got, that's some good $H1t.
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I would rather have a 600 Ak then a 600 AR.
I would rather have a $600 AR in 7.62x39 than a $600 AK
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I would rather have $600 in cash.............
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I drawed you graff.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I drawed you graff.
was this supposed to be in the assault pistol debate thread? :)
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I would rather have $600 in cash.............
yea... and that could go toward my bipod, bipod OD mount, micro OD mount, and optic OD mount... wait that might be more then $600... dangit :) lol
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was this supposed to be in the assault pistol debate thread? :)
It was O_o
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yea... and that could go toward my bipod, bipod OD mount, micro OD mount, and optic OD mount... wait that might be more then $600... dangit :) lol
...............strippers and coke................... :crazy:
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It's kinda funny to hear a topic like this, especially from someone. Who runs a shop lol.
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It's kinda funny to hear a topic like this, especially from someone. Who runs a shop lol.
hahaha same thing the boss told me....I'm the cheapskate in the shop. Everyone else is high $$ & $$$$
I like the best BANG for the buck like everyone else!
Brian runs the shop. I take care of all the Merchandising, Advertising & Product Development
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That's why I have a AR in 7.62x39 also which cost $600 also!
Where did you get that AR from
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X-Ring!
Price went up $679 now. 4 week backorder right now.
It's a flat top upper with no sights. Top rail gas block. Full Float tube.
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Other than the fit, finish and QC you may or may not be getting on your gun, sometimes its easy to forget all the little extras and accessories you might be getting. My buddy felt slightly ripped off after buying his AR. But I had to point out to him his came with from the factory with troy sights ($220), magpul miad ($35), magpul acs ($110), sling mounts ($30-$60), rail covers ($15) etc... This may not seem like much, but it adds ups to over $400, if youre someone planning on putting these things on your gun after you bought it regardless, then it defeinatly helps justify the price.
Now, none of these things make you a better shooter by any means. But you have to understand where some of the companies are cioming from with their higher prices.
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DAMN, this is an old thread!
I guess now it should be, "Why is a $6000 AR better than a $2000 one?"
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DAMN, this is an old thread!
I guess now it should be, "Why is a $6000 AR better than a $2000 one?"
HA HA HA...You're right HNL need to update the price!..I still say there is no difference as long as you use good parts!
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I say there's no $600 AR's anymore
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I say there's no $600 AR's anymore
There is just gotta find them. A customer imported a DPMS for $595 plus shipping and FFL.
He found it in TX at a small gun shop
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HA HA HA...You're right HNL need to update the price!..I still say there is no difference as long as you use good parts!
I still hang on to the though of "in general," a (then) $2000 AR was better than a (then) $600 AR. If you got friends that know what to look for and what to do, you'd have a good $600 AR.
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DAMN, this is an old thread!
I guess now it should be, "Why is a $6000 AR better than a $2000 one?"
LOL.
I should sell my new POF .308 rifle for 8k. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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My $.99 slippa lasted longer and performed better than the Scott $45 slippa.... ;D
To each his own!!!
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I say there's no $600 AR's anymore
There are plenty of $600 AR's...Only now you'll pay $1500+ for them...but they are still $600 AR's
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My $.99 slippa lasted longer and performed better than the Scott $45 slippa.... ;D
To each his own!!!
No act.
You know the cheapest slippers are $2.99
:rofl:
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Here is my two cents. It's all relative to your intended use. If you don't need less than one most accuracy and don't care for all the frills then cheaper might be te route for you. If your looking for reliability just depends. I've had cheaper ar's that ate everything I feed it and shoot pretty close to the same even with match ammo. In comparison to my high end ar that was very picky with ammo.
it's like girls. Every guy wants a girl they can everything with but when a hotter girl comes along we drop everything for her no matter how high maintenance she is. But we would never pass up having two at one time :thumbsup:
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.gov pays about $400 for an M16A2 and expects 1 MOA out of them. use that as reference.
My most expensive AR is a.22 and I expect less than 1MOA out of it. close to $2k. so far so good with over 10k rounds down the pipe. It's better than a $600 one because it slings 22LR more accurately and reliably at 50 yards than most $600 centerfire ARs. and I save $ and ammo in practice.
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Seriously my slippa back then was $.99 and it lasted 10 yrs for whatever reason.... Yes your correct, if I had to buy that same slippa today it would cost me 3x the amount... So from $.99 to $2.99 was a large increase in price... damn inflation!!! :'(
I decided to purchase a Scott slippa for $45, but now I have to worry about theft or breakage or even damage.... WTH my $.99 slippa I didn't even have to worry at all, it got dirty, took some dings here and there from the dogs and people wearing them but I could always depend on my $.99 slippa the abuse it took and always performed like a champ!!!!
moral of the story be happy with what u got, cause u got it for a personal reason. Whether its $.99 or $45 everyone has reasons for either slippa....
;) :D ;) :D
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If any of my rifles shot no better than 3 moa, It would be for sale the next day!!! just saying... sub moa is my minimum. sub half is nicer. and Speed Tec is right, a cheap steel barrel broken in correctly is way more accurate than any expensive one not. Its not the price of the gun its the magic five... 1 proper brake in, 2 match ammo, 3 good scope, 4 clean braking trigger, 5 the right shooter. your only as accurate as your weakest link.
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Any good $150 non-chrome lined barrel (“That is properly broken in IS THE KEY”) will do sub M.O.A. with match ammo or hand loads. It doesn’t matter how much you spend on the rest of the parts except for maybe the trigger, and as long as its free-floated. SpeedTec is right, you can get the same results from a $600 AR as a $2000 AR, it depends if your trying to “Impress” or “Suppress”…. As far as the cars…. Id rather drive to dinner in the BMW but Id Drag race in a Mustang. Neither of those cars would be my first choice but if those were the only two choices.
;)
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My $.99 slippa lasted longer and performed better than the Scott $45 slippa.... ;D
To each his own!!!
if you had gotten custom fitted, high precisions race slippers though, you'd never go back!
i have an extra pair. usually they sell for $70, but OBama talked about banning them, so now im selling for the low low price of $299.
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Disagree. An 8 cylinder mustang will not outrun an 8 cylinder BMW M3 or Z06 vette. Tell me its the driver/shooter again? If this is the case, then why are there not cheap ass 50bmg and.338 Lapua rifles for all?
just saw this.
actually, the the new 5.0 mustangs WILL beat the v8 M3 both in a drag race, and on a track.
the z06 is a whole different animal, and the new twin turbo 6 cylinder M3 will probably beat the mustang, but the BMW has become a mere image symbol, and far too fat to take advantage of its engines.
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I put a free float tube on a friend's Olympic Arms AR (one that was so old that it had an A1 upper). He took it up to the range to zero (with cheap 55gr ball), and ended up walking downrange after two rounds because he couldn't see the second hole through the spotting scope. 2 rounds; one hole. Group size was so small (even with iron sights) that it was scary, especially since the Oly shot better than a (n expensive) JP custom rifle. All you really need for an accurate AR is to float a good barrel...although the fit of the gas tube to the gas tube key is CRITICAL. The gas tube has to be exactly centered in the key, which can take some fiddling.
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There are also lots of features, coatings, and other stuff that improve at 2000 ar that a 600 ar won't hold a stick to. Nickle-boron coating etc. ambi features, metallurgy. I forgot where I saw the breakdown of each gun and the requirements that it takes to be "milspec" and stuff and how all the metals and tests must meet the DOD standards (which are quite plentiful).
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Perhaps quality control is a bit better as well as customer service, but for me, there is a limit to what I'll spend on an AR. I've had great results with Bushmasters, Colts and Rock River Arms. If someone is trying to tout sub moa, just go ahead and buy a bolt action. Most people will never even come close to really running a weapon hard to test the limits. :shaka:
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You guys all make valid points. There is no right or wrong here. Its just fun to shoot guns, and talk about guns.
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Ahhh ....the days of cheap ars......and the debate continues
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Cheap ar's are back with good bang for the $
I almost ordered a Psa upper with lw chf barrel mid length for 308 + s/h
Rainier bcg 100
BCM ch 50
Stripped blemished lower 60
Lpk/grip/buffer/stock 85
Magpul buis 50
If shooting for recreation a 600 ar is fine but I wouldn't want to use it if my life depended on it
I'm a cheap bastard but I'd rather spend a little more for a colt, Bravo, Daniel for a little more piece of mind
Same for cars, America is catching up but I still drive Toyota
Damn this is an old thread
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If shooting for recreation a 600 ar is fine but I wouldn't want to use it if my life depended on it
I'm a cheap bastard but I'd rather spend a little more for a colt, Bravo, Daniel for a little more piece of mind
I agree, with that said it is also important to up keep your gear. I have a BCM, and after about 4.5k rounds I blew a gas ring at one of the HDF range days. Still functioned the entire time, found it when I broke it down that night. Just something to keep in mind.
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I trust my life with my $600 AR and I still don't clean it!
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I trust my life with my $600 AR and I still don't clean it!
you don't clean your ar15 at all? Not even a bore snake through the barrel and a wipe down of the bcg? What kind of lube do you use and how do you do it? lol :worship:
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I just use any oil...Outer's Gun Oil on the BCG
I have about 8000+ rounds through this AR
It also has a Plum Crazy Polymer lower all original
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Dex - if you were active duty and going to the box, you wouldn't upgrade?
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no.....
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I can respect that
But I'd probably put 1g down to bet it wouldn't come back in 1 piece :-)
Anyway xoxoxo & merry Xmas
<3
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Forgetting AR or whatever platform.... if I had the choice between a $2K gun or a $600 gun, I would buy the $600 gun every freakin' time!
1. I can buy three guns, that's THREE guns, and still have leftover money for ammo.
2. No fucking number two. See number one.
3. I am not in a position that my life will ever, ever, ever depend on a gun working at that "one crucial moment."
4. Notice that I have a concurrent post in the "drunken posts" thread (but I can still spell 'concurrent'.)
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Just get a $600 AK and you'll never need to worry about anything ever again.
:thumbsup:
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How did I miss this gem.
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Learned from my pball days, for me, I just want something reliable. It doesn't have to be expensive.
And I want a near identical backup
A day of fun time is not meant for fixing downed toys, it's time to shoot all those pint sizes midgets with the $1500 electro guns :-)
Xoxo
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Just get a $600 AK and you'll never need to worry about anything ever again.
:thumbsup:
That's a whole another thread.
A $2000 AK is way better than a $600 one for sure. LoL
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For $2000 I can get 2 AK's with ultimak gas tube mounts.
2x optics.
2000 rounds of ammo.
I'd be set.
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I thought I'd bump this thread being that prices and availability for the AR15 is pretty good. We have a lot of newer members and I'd like to see their point of view on this particular topic.
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I got 4 rifles for $2000. One of which being an AR, and the other 3 being all of different calibers. I made up for lack of perceived reliability of the AR by covering a diversity of different rifles. To me diversity and quantity are more important than reliability, because reliability never can be 100%. Plus if zombies were inbound and i ran out of mags for my noveske, id drop it for the shotty or 9 or keltec.
If I was spoiled and had a large budget for my hobby then yes I'd brag about my noveske and put it to the test accordingly, fire it wet, sandy, dusty, just cuz I could...and then brag some more about how poorly I treated my $2k noveske.... ::)
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Even with the prices now, the $600 to $2000 is a little unreasonable. $600 is like Bushmaster or DPMS, where $2000 is approaching Noveske. So many reasons why the latter is better. $900ish is a bit better of a comparison because you can get a Colt in that ballpark or build a stripped lower and pair it with a great BCM upper for around that price. That's where it gets harder to justify because they'll both run very reliably. To be fair though, usually Noveskes and others are closer to like $2300 so the better debate would be why is a $2300 AR better than a $1000 one? You can make an argument for slightly better accuracy from the higher end barrels, but most shooters, with most ammo, will not make use of that. It will either come down mostly to cosmetics (Noveskes are works of art) or proprietary parts like in a KAC or War Sport, etc.
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For some, throwing money at something will alleviate fears that it will not fail - sort of like how the govt. addresses its problems by throwing money and personnel at it.
When AR users come to realize how it really works, who really makes them, how they are made a light will come on and things will appear differently like how Neo saw everything in code.
(http://people.ucsc.edu/~skasahar/Media/matrix.jpg)
There's no magic behind a name. A following of users yes - just as the followers of Beyonce and the Kardashians.
I've been beat by Stag lowers with uppers built by CLE, WOA, Accuracy Speaks etc. My mishmash of uppers and lowers made by different assemblers and forging houses (there are only a few BTW) work. When they don't I find out why and fix them (which is rare). I know what to buy and who to buy from. I downloaded the technical FM on the AR for reference. I shoot and I shoot.
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It will either come down mostly to cosmetics (Noveskes are works of art)
even that is subjective.
For some, throwing money at something will alleviate fears that it will not fail - sort of like how the govt. addresses its problems by throwing money and personnel at it.
When AR users come to realize how it really works, who really makes them, how they are made a light will come on and things will appear differently like how Neo saw everything in code.
There's no magic behind a name. A following of users yes - just as the followers of Beyonce and the Kardashians.
its usually all just brand name after a point anyways. so many manufacturers, in all businesses, not just firearms, rely on what i like to call the "Apple model". they made something better quality at some point in time, and now, even though everyone's caught up to them, they can get away with charging a premium on percieved brand superiority and prestige even though the gap has closed. high end ARs, BMW's, Macs, Alienware as a gaming pc, so on...
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Hahaha
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Would you still consider a $600 or since its updated $1000 ar over $2300 noveske if you wanted to buy a single ar15 for shtf scenario? Knights armament displayed a consumer bought sr-15 that i believe at its current round count is about 22,xxx plus rounds with only oil? I know speedtek has his cost efficient ar that has potential to do this. Never seen noveske claim to do any of this stuff. Hard to distinguish whats what on the internet . To much fan boys believe i bought this brand and every one else should cause its awesome. Well what makes it so awesome. Noveske have great barrel so do hk mr556. Knights armament has fully ambi control and e3 bolts. IDK lmk what you guys think.
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Would you still consider a $600 or since its updated $1000 ar over $2300 noveske if you wanted to buy a single ar15 for shtf scenario? Knights armament displayed a consumer bought sr-15 that i believe at its current round count is about 22,xxx plus rounds with only oil? I know speedtek has his cost efficient ar that has potential to do this. Never seen noveske claim to do any of this stuff. Hard to distinguish whats what on the internet . To much fan boys believe i bought this brand and every one else should cause its awesome. Well what makes it so awesome. Noveske have great barrel so do hk mr556. Knights armament has fully ambi control and e3 bolts. IDK lmk what you guys think.
Depends on what you plan to do in SHTF.
I think people are too much into the tactical fanboy aspect of SHTF. They see too many movies and think that they are going to be "13 Hours: The Secret Tactical Fanboys of Waipahu", and that they will be patrolling the streets with their FAST helmets, taco pouches and multicam AR500 body armor, which means that they need the $10,000 AR-15 or whatever platform to go with all their juicy accessories.
If you look at a legitimate SHTF scenario, most people aren't going anywhere; especially those who have already prepared. Therefore, you don't NEED something that is supposedly meant for military service if you plan on staying in and bunkering down. And I can personally vouch for Speedtek's AR-15 quality for the price, which is why I send anyone interested in purchasing an AR15 to him. Why? Because they will not only get a tightly built and accurate firearm, but can purchase other necessities (i.e. optics, ammunition, training, etc) with all the money they will save; far more important than the price tag and supposed 'better quality' on a more expensive firearm.
Now if you are planning on conducting urban/jungle warfare in Hawaii during a SHTF scenario, I wouldn't even use an AR system. I mean, you could take the ARs from people attempting to fight you, but I would invest my money in something that is proven to work in any environment, and I have been in various types of environments with an AR and can wholeheartedly tell you that I wish I had something else in all of those scenarios.
*disclaimer: my description of tactical fanboys is not indirectly or directly referencing anyone that participates in this forum. If this description does describe you, then my bad.*
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Depends on what you plan to do in SHTF.
I think people are too much into the tactical fanboy aspect of SHTF. They see too many movies and think that they are going to be "13 Hours: The Secret Tactical Fanboys of Waipahu", and that they will be patrolling the streets with their FAST helmets, taco pouches and multicam AR500 body armor, which means that they need the $10,000 AR-15 or whatever platform to go with all their juicy accessories.
*disclaimer: my description of tactical fanboys is not indirectly or directly referencing anyone that participates in this forum. If this description does describe you, then my bad.*
thanks for the disclaimer, Q, but you know i have a faux PASGT and digicam AR500 body armor, so i knew you weren't tlaking about me
:shaka:
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Depends on what you plan to do in SHTF.
I think people are too much into the tactical fanboy aspect of SHTF. They see too many movies and think that they are going to be "13 Hours: The Secret Tactical Fanboys of Waipahu", and that they will be patrolling the streets with their FAST helmets, taco pouches and multicam AR500 body armor, which means that they need the $10,000 AR-15 or whatever platform to go with all their juicy accessories.
If you look at a legitimate SHTF scenario, most people aren't going anywhere; especially those who have already prepared. Therefore, you don't NEED something that is supposedly meant for military service if you plan on staying in and bunkering down. And I can personally vouch for Speedtek's AR-15 quality for the price, which is why I send anyone interested in purchasing an AR15 to him. Why? Because they will not only get a tightly built and accurate firearm, but can purchase other necessities (i.e. optics, ammunition, training, etc) with all the money they will save; far more important than the price tag and supposed 'better quality' on a more expensive firearm.
Now if you are planning on conducting urban/jungle warfare in Hawaii during a SHTF scenario, I wouldn't even use an AR system. I mean, you could take the ARs from people attempting to fight you, but I would invest my money in something that is proven to work in any environment, and I have been in various types of environments with an AR and can wholeheartedly tell you that I wish I had something else in all of those scenarios.
*disclaimer: my description of tactical fanboys is not indirectly or directly referencing anyone that participates in this forum. If this description does describe you, then my bad.*
Well when shtf who knows. Maybe plan a , and plan b were F****D from the beginning and you going to have to wing it with what very little u can scrounge up with. I dont do any types of training. I just love shooting. Its good fun but expensive. I bought a jp 15. Love the weight and feel. Shoots smooth awesome gun, but can really get dirty. Also have a lwrc ic spr. Heavier and you feel the recoil more, but when you open it up its clean. Wish i could mesh these two guns into one. Have the weight and feel and smoothness of my jp with the easy of cleaning of my lwrc lol.
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thanks for the disclaimer, Q, but you know i have a faux PASGT and digicam AR500 body armor, so i knew you weren't tlaking about me
:shaka:
By digicam, do you mean ACU, as in the MKV ACU plate carrier that I sold you?
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Just picked up a smith and Wesson m&p sport ( btw the new one has dust cover n fwd assist, my old one didn't) and picked it up for under 700. Shoots like a champ cant beat the price. Shit my aimpoint t2 was more expensive than the rifle, but yeah I'd rather get more guns vs one expensive one. then again I'd drop a dime for a scar 17....
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Well when shtf who knows. Maybe plan a , and plan b were F****D from the beginning and you going to have to wing it with what very little u can scrounge up with. I dont do any types of training. I just love shooting. Its good fun but expensive. I bought a jp 15. Love the weight and feel. Shoots smooth awesome gun, but can really get dirty. Also have a lwrc ic spr. Heavier and you feel the recoil more, but when you open it up its clean. Wish i could mesh these two guns into one. Have the weight and feel and smoothness of my jp with the easy of cleaning of my lwrc lol.
If you have basic rifle marksmanship, know how to traverse terrain and use cover and concealment properly, you will be fine.
Watch how mobs and militias in Africa act during uprisings; that is likely how most 'evil' people with guns will be during a worst case scenario, which also makes them easy targets if you have even the most basic of training.