2aHawaii

General Topics => Political Discussion => Topic started by: Kuleana on April 07, 2020, 07:38:13 PM

Title: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 07, 2020, 07:38:13 PM
Covid-19 has really uncovered the pitfalls of financing the largest military the World has seen.  Most recently, it has brought to light how America's soldiers and seamen are nothing but expendable assets in order to maintain the American empire.

The recent firing of Captain Crozier of the nuclear aircraft carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is the most high profile event that illustrated how far the US military will go to ensure discipline within its ranks in order to dominate the seas.  His being relieved of his command, though justifiable, nevertheless shows that there are still patriotic Americans who will not sacrifice the health and well-being of the personnel under their command for imperial goals.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 07, 2020, 08:09:18 PM
Covid-19 has really uncovered the pitfalls of financing the largest military the World has seen.  Most recently, it has brought to light how America's soldiers and seamen are nothing but expendable assets in order to maintain the American empire.

The recent firing of Captain Crozier of the nuclear aircraft carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is the most high profile event that illustrated how far the US military will go to ensure discipline within its ranks in order to dominate the seas.  His being relieved of his command, though justifiable, nevertheless shows that there are still patriotic Americans who will not sacrifice the health and well-being of the personnel under their command for imperial goals.

yes, that is likely exactly what happened...
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 07, 2020, 08:37:14 PM
SNIP

The recent firing of Captain Crozier of the nuclear aircraft carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is the most high profile event that illustrated how far the US military will go to ensure discipline within its ranks in order to dominate the seas.  His being relieved of his command, though justifiable, nevertheless shows that there are still patriotic Americans who will not sacrifice the health and well-being of the personnel under their command for imperial goals.
Who exactly is being patriotic and who is protecting those under their Command, exactly?

This ought to be interesting. Since you are such an expert.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: RSN172 on April 07, 2020, 08:49:55 PM
I wouldn’t call him a hero or traitor.  Just a guy doing what he felt was the right thing.  I really don't understand why he got fired for this, but there was some mention on the news about Trump is going to look into whether or not his firing was justified.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Heavies on April 07, 2020, 10:02:44 PM
Imagine you own and operate the biggest baddest gun store on the island, fully stocked, and tons of ammunition.  All the best stuff.

You have a longtime trusted friend to manage and run it for you. 

Your manager goes on Facebook and publicly announces many of the security alarms and features and cameras are down, the locks on the doors and windows are weak and compromised, possibly many more to break in a few days.  You can't get it fixed right away because everyone's on lockdown.

Now every criminal and hoodlum on the island knows that your store is easy pickings. Top of the line guns and ammo just waiting.

What would you do?
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: hvybarrels on April 08, 2020, 02:12:52 AM
Imagine you own and operate the biggest baddest gun store on the island, fully stocked, and tons of ammunition.  All the best stuff.

You have a longtime trusted friend to manage and run it for you. 

Your manager goes on Facebook and publicly announces many of the security alarms and features and cameras are down, the locks on the doors and windows are weak and compromised, possibly many more to break in a few days.  You can't get it fixed right away because everyone's on lockdown.

Now every criminal and hoodlum on the island knows that your store is easy pickings. Top of the line guns and ammo just waiting.

What would you do?

Take out the biggest baddest insurance policy.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: RSN172 on April 08, 2020, 04:37:17 AM
The Sec of the Navy that fired the Captain has apologized and resigned.  His crew greatly respected him.  I am sure we will learn more.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Mdotweber on April 08, 2020, 05:49:32 AM
Imagine you own and operate the biggest baddest gun store on the island, fully stocked, and tons of ammunition.  All the best stuff.

You have a longtime trusted friend to manage and run it for you. 

Your manager goes on Facebook and publicly announces many of the security alarms and features and cameras are down, the locks on the doors and windows are weak and compromised, possibly many more to break in a few days.  You can't get it fixed right away because everyone's on lockdown.

Now every criminal and hoodlum on the island knows that your store is easy pickings. Top of the line guns and ammo just waiting.

What would you do?
^This...
   it was a f+ckup from top to bottom. You dont air the Navy's dirty laundry(wether justified or not) while you are flexing in a high profile theatre. SecNav messed up with the content of his speech to the crew which was stupidly broadcasted on the MC1 for everyone to hear.

On a different note, imagine the amount of damage covid19 could inflict on a small island population like Guam.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 08, 2020, 07:52:04 AM
Who exactly is being patriotic and who is protecting those under their Command, exactly?

Yes, I am an expert of putting the well-being of the people I manage above myself.

In the case of Captain Crozier, he definitely did the right thing.  He knew there was a breakout of the exponentially rapid infectious Covid-19 on board his ship.  He also knew that the US was NOT AT WAR with any nation at the time.  Unknowing how many sailors he would loose and the many more that would get infected, he made the decision to save his crew, fully accepting the consequences of his actions.

Is he a hero or traitor?

To those who believe in defending the AMERICAN EMPIRE at all costs, even during a time of peace, not war; well, I guess Captain Crozier is a traitor to the empire and his punishment NEEDS to be made an example to other military commanders who would DARE consider the lives of those they lead, since no empire ever sleeps.

BUT, for those who believe he was acting in the best interest of his command, during a time of peace in the name of the AMERICAN REPUBLIC, he IS a hero and a patriot.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 07:58:49 AM
SNIP

Now every criminal and hoodlum on the island knows that your store is easy pickings. Top of the line guns and ammo just waiting.

What would you do?
Might as well put up a sign that says "Gun Free Zone, come take my stuff". 

^This...
   it was a f+ckup from top to bottom. You dont air the Navy's dirty laundry(wether justified or not) while you are flexing in a high profile theatre. SecNav messed up with the content of his speech to the crew which was stupidly broadcasted on the MC1 for everyone to hear.

On a different note, imagine the amount of damage covid19 could inflict on a small island population like Guam.
Pretty much. 

I've done work on Guam many times and yes, something like COVID-19 would be bad. 
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 08:10:13 AM
Yes, I am an expert of putting the well-being of the people I manage above myself.

In the case of Captain Crozier, he definitely did the right thing.  He knew there was a breakout of the exponentially rapid infectious Covid-19 on board his ship.  He also knew that the US was NOT AT WAR with any nation at the time.  Unknowing how many sailors he would loose and the many more that would get infected, he made the decision to save his crew, fully accepting the consequences of his actions.

Is he a hero or traitor?

To those who believe in defending the AMERICAN EMPIRE at all costs, even during a time of peace, not war; well, I guess Captain Crozier is a traitor to the empire and his punishment NEEDS to be made an example to other military commanders who would DARE consider the lives of those they lead, since no empire ever sleeps.

BUT, for those who believe he was acting in the best interest of his command, during a time of peace in the name of the AMERICAN REPUBLIC, he IS a hero and a patriot.
::)

What do you think?  What is the context of the folks that you manage? 

Resisting the urge to type something demeaning here, but I don't believe you have a wide enough view to understand the bigger picture. 

And I still don't understand why you feel the need to bold, caps, bigger font, etc to try to emphasize your point. . . 

Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 08, 2020, 08:26:26 AM
::)

What do you think?  What is the context of the folks that you manage? 

Resisting the urge to type something demeaning here, but I don't believe you have a wide enough view to understand the bigger picture. 

And I still don't understand why you feel the need to bold, caps, bigger font, etc to try to emphasize your point. . .


I am a civilian who leads my own department.  What is the context of those you lead that gives you the expertise in this matter?  Where you in charge of your own ship, air wing, or garrison?

Yes; please educate those of us who do not understand as to what is the bigger picture that you speak?

I provided emphasis in my last post because there are people who do believe in sacrificing the health and lives of good servicemen for nothing, during a time of peace.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Heavies on April 08, 2020, 08:36:13 AM
Might as well put up a sign that says "Gun Free Zone, come take my stuff". 
Pretty much. 

I've done work on Guam many times and yes, something like COVID-19 would be bad. 

Yep. It's the running joke when we need to work on Guam.  DON'T GET SICK
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Heavies on April 08, 2020, 08:37:56 AM

I am a civilian who leads my own department.  What is the context of those you lead that gives you the expertise in this matter?  Where you in charge of your own ship, air wing, or garrison?

Yes; please educate those of us who do not understand as to what is the bigger picture that you speak?

I provided emphasis in my last post because there are people who do believe in sacrificing the health and lives of good servicemen for nothing, during a time of peace.

Time and time again, you cannot conceptualize the big picture, no sense in trying to explain it to you again.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 08, 2020, 08:45:58 AM
::)

What do you think?  What is the context of the folks that you manage? 

Resisting the urge to type something demeaning here, but I don't believe you have a wide enough view to understand the bigger picture. 

And I still don't understand why you feel the need to bold, caps, bigger font, etc to try to emphasize your point. . .

he capitalizes and bolds so he can learn those of us who are less educated and worldly than he is
otherwise, he might loose our attention because we are so stupid and ignorant
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 08, 2020, 08:47:57 AM
Time and time again, you cannot conceptualize the big picture, no sense in trying to explain it to you again.

Nice try.

The reason you may not want to explain the big picture in this case is because it will ultimately expose the nonsense of what the military has been doing abroad and the obscene amount of financial resources it has sapped over the decades when some of those funds could have been better allocated to domestic items that directly benefits Americans, as highlighted by the current pandemic crisis in the US.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 08:53:01 AM
Yep. It's the running joke when we need to work on Guam.  DON'T GET SICK
I was doing work there before the Navy Hospital was up and running.  That was  :shake:  Especially when we were out there doing a lot of field work, on construction sites, etc. 

Time and time again, you cannot conceptualize the big picture, no sense in trying to explain it to you again.
From a college buddy, and Navy officer who has held and I believe currently is in a Command position:

Quote
"Command is a sacred trust" and the burden is not taken lightly.  Noble intent and proper execution don't always align.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 08:53:28 AM
he capitalizes and bolds so he can learn those of us who are less educated and worldly than he is
otherwise, he might loose our attention because we are so stupid and ignorant
loose heads

clips
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 08, 2020, 09:01:56 AM
loose heads

clips

looser...
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 08, 2020, 09:11:32 AM
  He did follow certain protocol from his early request. And being in command for so long, he knows that the military takes time to get stuff done.

But the fact is that he sent an unsecured email about the ships status.  Even if that email stated that they're still operational, it still gives info to who ever that there are sick people aboard and operational status is now in question.  Which could open them up to attack or attacks in the area knowing that a carriers abilities are in question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure his sailors love him and up to this point, he's a great captain, by evidence of him leaving the ship.  How many captains get that kind of send off?  Talked to a few Navy guys and they said that kind of send off doesn't happen.  1 guy was in the Navy in the 70's and another got out 5 years ago.  Both were on carriers.

On a plus note, he was just relieved of command.  He keeps his rank and no further NJP or anything.  He will most likely retire.  So even if Trump does look into the matter, what's he going to do?  Put him back in command of the carrier?  This isn't a #freeeddie.

So I don't think he's either a hero or a trader.  He's just a good captain who thought he was doing right by his crew and messed up.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: groveler on April 08, 2020, 09:43:56 AM
I was Air Force.
The ship commander rightfully was removed from command.
You don't go outside protocol and reveal your weapons systems weaknesses.
Did you know that a Nuke mounted on a B52 went to "Armed" condition
while on the ground( that is very bad).
I had just finished servicing an Avionics problem(unrelated) on that aircraft.
Did that ever make the news?
They had to fly in a crew to disarm the weapon as we had no local skill sets for that.
Did the base commander evacuate the base?  No.
A 20 Kiloton bomb would make a mess if it were to go boom.
The Navy secretary also really screwed up. so it was also correct that he is also gone.
The Military has rules, protocols, and many un-written rules for a reason.
Even if those rules, protocols, and un-written rules seem to be
unreasonable(most are).
Your focus is the Mission.
Just in case you are mistaken I was not a "Gung ho" NCO.
I did take my job very seriously.  When you are crawling
around Nukes at age 18, you learn quick.

 




Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 08, 2020, 09:52:44 AM
  He did follow certain protocol from his early request. And being in command for so long, he knows that the military takes time to get stuff done.

But the fact is that he sent an unsecured email about the ships status.  Even if that email stated that they're still operational, it still gives info to who ever that there are sick people aboard and operational status is now in question.  Which could open them up to attack or attacks in the area knowing that a carriers abilities are in question.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure his sailors love him and up to this point, he's a great captain, by evidence of him leaving the ship.  How many captains get that kind of send off?  Talked to a few Navy guys and they said that kind of send off doesn't happen.  1 guy was in the Navy in the 70's and another got out 5 years ago.  Both were on carriers.

On a plus note, he was just relieved of command.  He keeps his rank and no further NJP or anything.  He will most likely retire.  So even if Trump does look into the matter, what's he going to do?  Put him back in command of the carrier?  This isn't a #freeeddie.

So I don't think he's either a hero or a trader.  He's just a good captain who thought he was doing right by his crew and messed up.

Similarly, as I stated in my original post:

The recent firing of Captain Crozier of the nuclear aircraft carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is the most high profile event that illustrated how far the US military will go to ensure discipline within its ranks in order to dominate the seas.  His being relieved of his command, though justifiable, nevertheless shows that there are still patriotic Americans who will not sacrifice the health and well-being of the personnel under their command for imperial goals.

I ended my post by sharing not only my view, but most of his crew, and much of the American public as to him being a hero to his ship and America.

I never said the US Navy was not justified in his dismissal, but rather alluded how his being sacked of his command served as an object lesson to other US commanders to not get any ideas of doing whatever it takes to protect those under them from imminent harm in the goal of imperial dominance.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 08, 2020, 10:09:45 AM
Similarly, as I stated in my original post:

I ended my post by sharing not only my view, but most of his crew, and much of the American public as to him being a hero to his ship and America.

I never said the US Navy was not justified in his dismissal, but rather alluded how his being sacked of his command served as an object lesson to other US commanders to not get any ideas of doing whatever it takes to protect those under them from imminent harm in the goal of imperial dominance.

him loosing his command was an object lesson to other US commanders not to break the chain of command

"Unit, Corps, God, Country"
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 10:17:50 AM
I was Air Force.
The ship commander rightfully was removed from command.
You don't go outside protocol and reveal your weapons systems weaknesses.
Did you know that a Nuke mounted on a B52 went to "Armed" condition
while on the ground( that is very bad).
I had just finished servicing an Avionics problem(unrelated) on that aircraft.
Did that ever make the news?
They had to fly in a crew to disarm the weapon as we had no local skill sets for that.
Did the base commander evacuate the base?  No.
A 20 Kiloton bomb would make a mess if it were to go boom.
The Navy secretary also really screwed up. so it was also correct that he is also gone.
The Military has rules, protocols, and many un-written rules for a reason.
Even if those rules, protocols, and un-written rules seem to be
unreasonable(most are).
Your focus is the Mission.
Just in case you are mistaken I was not a "Gung ho" NCO.
I did take my job very seriously.  When you are crawling
around Nukes at age 18, you learn quick.
One of my first projects when I moved back to HI was a hangar at Andersen AFB.  We were talking with one of the B2 crews, which was still pretty hush hush back then, and they mentioned that they were part of one of the first waves of one of the Iraq conflict/war/whatever.  Anyways, they were enroute when a commercial flight caught wind of them and started announcing on the air traffic net, even to the passengers on the plane.  Yeah, those comms got shut down pretty quick. . .
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 10:19:05 AM
him loosing his command was an object lesson to other US commanders not to break the chain of command

"Unit, Corps, God, Country"
"I like all you Navy boys. Every time we gotta go some place to fight, you fellas always give us a ride."



Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: hvybarrels on April 08, 2020, 10:45:16 AM
I have seen what the navy does to the psychology and immune systems of people stuck on board for long periods of time, and I would never recommend anyone to go into that line of service. The crime that the captain committed was caring about his men at a time when we are not at war (at least not that kind of war) but the brass still insists on treating sailors like wartime expendables. This is a pandemic, so any country that escalates using their navy risks losing the initiative simply because the sailors would start dropping life flies.  Service men are dying because our Wall Street masters refuse to let our armed forces negotiate a parlay to let everyone recover. People might get used to dealing with problems with diplomacy, and that would be a disaster for those who have built their careers around stealing taxpayer money by bribing government officials into purchasing overpriced weapons systems.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 08, 2020, 10:55:20 AM
him loosing his command was an object lesson to other US commanders not to break the chain of command

"Unit, Corps, God, Country"


Due to the absence of a formal inquiry of the events, I am in no position to challenge the stated official reason given for the ouster of Captain Crozier.

However, according to his close friend that graduated with Captain Crozier at the US Naval Academy as well as a graduate of TOPGUN, Brett Odom, as well as other media sources, there is exists some doubt as to the "real reasons given" that led to Crozier's loss of command.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/04/07/navy-fired-defamed-my-friend-over-coronavirus-letter-column/2960627001/

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/491388-the-courage-of-navy-captain-brett-crozier
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 08, 2020, 11:05:12 AM
"I like all you Navy boys. Every time we gotta go some place to fight, you fellas always give us a ride."

"Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post."
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: groveler on April 08, 2020, 11:23:20 AM
"I like all you Navy boys. Every time we gotta go some place to fight, you fellas always give us a ride."
You sound like my BIL(a retired Gunnery Sergent).
About Andersen AFB,  I was stationed there with MAC, but got periodically loaned over to the SAC side
As I was a SAC trained killer(Minot ND B52's and KC's)
Where did they put the B2 hangars at?  North end?
I'd be surprised if they took out the revetments they kept the Buffs in.
Guam taught me about island life, I guess that is why I ended up on the BI.
I could never handle Oahu.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 08, 2020, 11:34:21 AM
You sound like my BIL(a retired Gunnery Sergent).
About Andersen AFB,  I was stationed there with MAC, but got periodically loaned over to the SAC side
As I was a SAC trained killer(Minot ND B52's and KC's)
Where did they put the B2 hangars at?  North end?
I'd be surprised if they took out the revetments they kept the Buffs in.
Guam taught me about island life, I guess that is why I ended up on the BI.
I could never handle Oahu.
That's a quote from a movie. . .  I mean, that was a quote from a movie, sir. . .

Not sure if the flightline layout is the same from back when you were there, but there's been a lot of construction since the late 90s.  I actually designed the next hangar that was built after the B2 hangar when I was a consultant.  After construction finished, I used to tell the folks on Guam that if there's ever a huge typhoon on the way, that hangar would be the safest building on Guam.  ;D
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: RSN172 on April 08, 2020, 02:56:44 PM
Guam taught me about island life, I guess that is why I ended up on the BI.
I could never handle Oahu.
Shhh, someone might hear you.  If you commit a serious infraction instead of life in prison, you might get life on Oahu without the possibility of leaving.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: mrgaf on April 08, 2020, 08:20:26 PM
"I like all you Navy boys. Every time we gotta go some place to fight, you fellas always give us a ride."

of course! that's what Marine stands for...
My Ass Rides In Naval Equipment :D ;D ;)
RMCS (SW) Ret, USN
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: eyeeatingfish on April 11, 2020, 10:14:49 PM
Covid-19 has really uncovered the pitfalls of financing the largest military the World has seen.  Most recently, it has brought to light how America's soldiers and seamen are nothing but expendable assets in order to maintain the American empire.

The recent firing of Captain Crozier of the nuclear aircraft carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is the most high profile event that illustrated how far the US military will go to ensure discipline within its ranks in order to dominate the seas.  His being relieved of his command, though justifiable, nevertheless shows that there are still patriotic Americans who will not sacrifice the health and well-being of the personnel under their command for imperial goals.

Why do you think his being removed from command was justified? I know the letter he wrote was released to the media but last I had seen about the story is they hadn't proved who released the letter?
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 12, 2020, 06:58:36 AM
Why do you think his being removed from command was justified? I know the letter he wrote was released to the media but last I had seen about the story is they hadn't proved who released the letter?

Like with any other job, it is the prerogative of those in charge to promote or replace/reassign subordinates as they feel fit.  I personally don't agree with the US Navy's decision to relieve Captain Crozier of his command, but agree that it is within their right to do so if they wished.  If they kicked him out of the US Navy, that would be a different story.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 07:37:56 AM
First sailor aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt dies due to Covid-19.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-sailor-from-coronavirus-hit-aircraft-carrier-dies-after-contracting-virus/ar-BB12yJdh?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

More evidence showing how Captain Crozier's actions in this matter was that of not treating his crew as expendable assets and indeed proving himself being a hero to his crew.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: ren on April 13, 2020, 08:29:13 AM
First sailor aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt dies due to Covid-19.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-sailor-from-coronavirus-hit-aircraft-carrier-dies-after-contracting-virus/ar-BB12yJdh?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

More evidence showing how Captain Crozier's actions in this matter was that of not treating his crew as expendable assets and indeed proving himself being a hero to his crew.

Shocking! You care for our US military
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 13, 2020, 08:53:27 AM
Shocking! You care for our US military
When it fits within his narrow view of the world. . .

From the information I received, it hasn't been confirmed that the death was linked directly to CV19.  I'm not saying it wasn't, but rushing to capitalize on a death to prove a point is no better than our politicians. . .  :grrr:
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Heavies on April 13, 2020, 09:17:12 AM
People of Guam, anyone?  Wonder how many have been exposed because, feelings?
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 10:09:47 AM
When it fits within his narrow view of the world. . .

From the information I received, it hasn't been confirmed that the death was linked directly to CV19.  I'm not saying it wasn't, but rushing to capitalize on a death to prove a point is no better than our politicians. . .  :grrr:

Not that it matters, but you really don't know who I am or what I do or who I work with for a living and yet feel qualified to judge my World views, just because I have a different perspective of things from you.

May I also add that you have a narrow view of the World as well.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 10:13:22 AM
Shocking! You care for our US military

I care for the health and well-being of all people, which I distinguish from my disdain for any imperial acts by the US military.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 10:16:46 AM
People of Guam, anyone?  Wonder how many have been exposed because, feelings?

I agree; I sincerely feel sorry for the aboriginal inhabitants of Guam.

Maybe the Guamanians should tell the US Department of Defense to find another or build their own island to garrison and park their ships.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 13, 2020, 10:28:43 AM
Not that it matters, but you really don't know who I am or what I do or who I work with for a living and yet feel qualified to judge my World views, just because I have a different perspective of things from you.

May I also add that you have a narrow view of the World as well.
You keep saying that and no, I don't really know about your background.  Just that your brainwashing and broken record approach is obvious to anyone who is capable of rational thought. 

Copy, I have a narrow world view.  I try to be informed with what I do know, but my opinion is that I am open to other possibilities, points of view, etc.  My opinion of your narrow world view is that you always seem to "know what you know", often about subjects that you're purely speculating (i.e. Navy policies and operations) and don't seem to consider any other possible rational explanation. . .

Anyways, carry on. . .
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 13, 2020, 10:30:54 AM
I agree; I sincerely feel sorry for the aboriginal inhabitants of Guam.

Maybe the Guamanians should tell the US Department of Defense to find another or build their own island to garrison and park their ships.
Yeah, go to Guam and call those "aboriginal inhabitants" Guamanian. . . :facepalm: 
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: ren on April 13, 2020, 10:48:03 AM
Yeah, go to Guam and call those "aboriginal inhabitants" Guamanian. . . :facepalm:

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 11:09:25 AM
Yeah, go to Guam and call those "aboriginal inhabitants" Guamanian. . . :facepalm:

You think I do not know the difference between the aboriginal population (i.e., Chamorros) and the residents that make up the US territory of Guam?

I stand by what I said because the US has a history of not listening to the aboriginal as well as indigenous people, whose land were legally or illegally taken from them.  I referred to the pro-US population of Guamanians, since maybe the US might actually listen to their concerns.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 13, 2020, 11:19:45 AM
For arguments sake, let's just refer to them as people.  But not "you people".
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 11:21:29 AM
Just that your brainwashing and broken record approach is obvious to anyone who is capable of rational thought. 

Copy, I have a narrow world view.  I try to be informed with what I do know, but my opinion is that I am open to other possibilities, points of view, etc.  My opinion of your narrow world view is that you always seem to "know what you know", often about subjects that you're purely speculating (i.e. Navy policies and operations) and don't seem to consider any other possible rational explanation. . .


The biases that you keep, which shapes your World view is what forms the basis of your criticism to my views.  You claim you are open to other possibilities, but your almost automatic negative categorization of the points I raise, makes it very clear that you are guilty of what you accuse me.

In this thread, my first posting acknowledged that the Navy was within its right to dismiss Captain Crozier for whatever reason through which I disagreed with their decision and still thought of him as a hero.  Your accusation above clearly showed you either did not read my post carefully or your conscious or unconscious bias against me led you to believe I am not open to "other rational explanation", as you claim.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 13, 2020, 11:22:51 AM
You keep saying that and no, I don't really know about your background.  Just that your brainwashing and broken record approach is obvious to anyone who is capable of rational thought. 

Copy, I have a narrow world view.  I try to be informed with what I do know, but my opinion is that I am open to other possibilities, points of view, etc.  My opinion of your narrow world view is that you always seem to "know what you know", often about subjects that you're purely speculating (i.e. Navy policies and operations) and don't seem to consider any other possible rational explanation. . .

Anyways, carry on. . .

and ICBMs...
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 13, 2020, 11:23:45 AM
The biases that you keep, which shapes your World view is what forms the basis of your criticism to my views.  You claim you are open to other possibilities, but your almost automatic negative categorization of the points I raise, makes it very clear that you are guilty of what you accuse me.

In this thread, my first posting acknowledged that the Navy was within its right to dismiss Captain Crozier for whatever reason through which I disagreed with their decision and still thought of him as a hero.  Your accusation above clearly showed you either did not read my post carefully or your conscious or unconscious bias against me led you to believe I am not open to "other rational explanation", as you claim.

or DRCK is a racist...
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 13, 2020, 11:32:30 AM
or DRCK is a racist...
Yup, I yam. . .

And no, I probably didn't fully digest what the OP said.  I was just commenting on the tendency to speculate on topics that he is simply speculating without knowledge of the full context.

And what ICBMS?   ???  :o
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 13, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
For arguments sake, let's just refer to them as people.  But not "you people".

Quote
On December 8, 1941, hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Guam was captured by the Japanese, who occupied
the island for two and a half years. During the occupation, Guamanians were subjected to beheadings, forced labor,
rape, and torture.[7][8][9] American forces recaptured the island on July 21, 1944; Liberation Day commemorates the
victory.

Evil Imperialist Americans!!  How dare they steal Guam ... from the Japanese-Guamanians.   :wtf:

#distressed #Japanese-Guamanians
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: macsak on April 13, 2020, 12:29:08 PM
For arguments sake, let's just refer to them as people.  But not "you people".

what do you mean, "you people"?
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 13, 2020, 12:47:08 PM
I was just commenting on the tendency to speculate on topics that he is simply speculating without knowledge of the full context.

If I am guilty of what you accuse, almost everyone who posts on this forum would be just as guilty.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: ren on April 13, 2020, 01:22:47 PM
If I am guilty of what you accuse, almost everyone who posts on this forum would be just as guilty.

So how do ya know where I'm at, when you haven't been where I've been?
Understand where I'm comin' from?
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 24, 2020, 11:22:19 AM
VINDICATED.

It appears the US Navy has concluded that Captain Crozier was not guilty of any wrongdoing or neglecting the chain of command and has recommended his reinstatement as commanding officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/navy-recommends-reinstating-captain-of-coronavirus-stricken-aircraft-carrier/ar-BB139TKQ?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=mailsignout


As the reinstatement decision lies with Secretary of Defense Esper, we will see if Captain Crozier will still be made as an example for other naval field officers, who places the concern of his crew over the 24/7 US imperial dominance of the seas at a time of peace.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: changemyoil66 on April 24, 2020, 12:31:53 PM
So if you're in the Army/Marines and get screwed, the phrase is "fucked by the green weenie".  Whats the navy's equal?
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 24, 2020, 12:42:41 PM
Heard/read the recommendation that he be reinstated.  Something is up on that though.  Haven't heard anything about being cleared of wrongdoing or neglecting the chain of command.  Not saying that it didn't happen, but seems to be speculation at this point. 
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 24, 2020, 12:45:14 PM
So if you're in the Army/Marines and get screwed, the phrase is "fucked by the green weenie".  Whats the navy's equal?

I don't know the answer to that one, as thoughts of being penetrated by some color of phallus never ever crossed my mind.    ???
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Rocky on April 24, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
So if you're in the Army/Marines and get screwed, the phrase is "fucked by the green weenie".  Whats the navy's equal?
Screwed Blue ?

Wait, aren't  the Marines Navy    :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:    :rofl:

 :shake: :shake:

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 24, 2020, 12:49:09 PM
Heard/read the recommendation that he be reinstated.  Something is up on that though.  Haven't heard anything about being cleared of wrongdoing or neglecting the chain of command.  Not saying that it didn't happen, but seems to be speculation at this point.

The article I cited did not mentioned it directly, but did confirm the completion of an investigation by the US Navy presumably based on what charges that got Captain Crozier sacked from his command.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Flapp_Jackson on April 24, 2020, 12:59:30 PM
Heard/read the recommendation that he be reinstated.  Something is up on that though.  Haven't heard anything about being cleared of wrongdoing or neglecting the chain of command.  Not saying that it didn't happen, but seems to be speculation at this point.

A decision is expected today.  As of the publication of this article, there were several possible outcomes.

Until that decision, there is no "vindication."  A recommendation is not a formal decision, nor is it a "conclusion."


https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/04/19/reinstate-reassign-navy-to-decide-fate-of-fired-aircraft-carrier-captain/
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 24, 2020, 02:30:06 PM
A decision is expected today.  As of the publication of this article, there were several possible outcomes.

Until that decision, there is no "vindication."  A recommendation is not a formal decision, nor is it a "conclusion."


https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/04/19/reinstate-reassign-navy-to-decide-fate-of-fired-aircraft-carrier-captain/
Concur.  My point was someone was interjecting their speculation and passing off as fact.  Similar to MO of the MSM.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 24, 2020, 02:42:39 PM
Concur.  My point was someone was interjecting their speculation and passing off as fact.  Similar to MO of the MSM.

Your biased opinion.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 24, 2020, 02:49:32 PM
Similar to MO of the MSM.

That coming from someone who bases their pro-views of America's military actions all over the planet, as justified by the same MSM?

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 24, 2020, 02:55:24 PM
Your biased opinion.
Opinion?  Has information on clearing of wrongdoing or neglecting the chain of command been released?  If not, it was being interjected as speculation. 

End
of
story. . .
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Kuleana on April 24, 2020, 03:20:18 PM
Opinion?  Has information on clearing of wrongdoing or neglecting the chain of command been released?  If not, it was being interjected as speculation. 

I already agreed that the article I cited did not reveal any information, as to the specifics to how the US NAVY came to the conclusion to recommend the reinstatement of Captain Crozier.  However, the US Navy investigated something and apparently found Captain Crozier not guilty of anything.

It seems you are either letting your emotions against me or maybe your disappointment on what decision the US Navy reached today to split hairs.
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: drck1000 on April 24, 2020, 04:18:45 PM
I already agreed that the article I cited did not reveal any information, as to the specifics to how the US NAVY came to the conclusion to recommend the reinstatement of Captain Crozier.  However, the US Navy investigated something and 1) apparently found Captain Crozier not guilty of anything.

2) It seems you are either letting your emotions against me or maybe your disappointment on what decision the US Navy reached today to split hairs.
1) Apparently, but still your speculation.

2) Just calling as I see it.  Differences between opinion and fact, rational conclusions and emotional reaction, etc. 

Personally, I don't fault the CAPT for his actions.  I truly to believe he had the best interests of those under his Command at heart.  However, go back to my post about the responsibilities of Command.  That you didn't or couldn't comprehend the difference is why you think this is splitting hairs. 

Anyways, continue your Crusade against the Empire.  Rage against the machine.  Da. . .
Title: Re: Captain Crozier: Hero or Traitor
Post by: Heavies on April 24, 2020, 04:37:07 PM
If it wasn't him that let it out, they need to find out who did, and their  head rolls.   Nothing changed in my view.   Simple security and logic