Okay, I probably found the "law" that supposedly exists to prevent kids from bringing weapons to school. But I have to say that upon reading this, I am of the opinion that this "law" is actually a MYTH that everyone propagates. As I guessed earlier, this extra law is found in a different section than Hawaii's general weapons laws. If this is the only "no weapons in school" law that exists in Hawaii, it is very weak, if it is interpreted as it is written.

So first, here are the general weapons laws (the firearms laws we all know are separate and in addition to this) in Hawaii once again, in abbreviated form:

134-51 Deadly weapons; prohibitions; penalty.
(a) Any person, not authorized by law, who carries
concealed upon the person's self or within any vehicle
used or occupied by the person or who is found armed
with any dirk, dagger, blackjack, slug shot, billy,
metal knuckles, pistol, or other deadly or dangerous
weapon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(b) Whoever uses while engaged in the commission
of a crime shall be guilty of a class C felony.

134-52 Switchblade knives; prohibitions; penalty.
134-53 Butterfly knives; prohibitions; penalty.
(a) Whoever knowingly manufactures, sells, transfers,
possesses...shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(b) Whoever uses while engaged in the commission
of a crime shall be guilty of a class C felony.

302A-1134.6 Zero tolerance policy.
(a) Any child who possesses, sells, or uses a dangerous
weapon or switchblade knife, while attending school...
may be excluded from attending
school for up to ninety-two school days, as determined
by the principal and approved by the superintendent...

(f) For purposes of this section:
"Dangerous weapon" and "switchblade knife" are exactly
as defined in section 134-51 and 134-52.

Hawaii Case Law:
- "'Other deadly or dangerous weapon' is limited to
  instruments whose sole design and purpose is to inflict
  bodily injury or death... A 'diver's knife' is neither a
  'dangerous weapon' nor a 'dagger'. 'Deadly and dangerous
  weapon' is one designed primarily as a weapon or diverted
  from normal use and prepared for combat... Cane,
  butterfly, and kitchen knives are not deadly or dangerous
  weapons... Sheathed sword cane and wooden knuckles with
  shark's teeth were 'deadly or dangerous weapons..."

So people can see that Hawaii state law regarding weapons in school is completely powerless as it is written.

The only weapons that are prohibited in schools are the exact same kind that are prohibited in general for everyone. You will be guilty of a misdemeanor. The only thing additional is that you will be suspended from school.

Folding knives are perfectly legal in Hawaii for carry on the street, which we all know and easily practice, according to those sections of Hawaii state law. According to the section of state law dealing with schools as written above, folding knives can be brought into schools with no legal penalty. Kitchen knives can be brought into schools. Pepper spray can be brought into schools.

Question:

Isn't there a law regarding weapons on schools on a federal level?

There may be. That's why I said above that my statements should not be taken as solid proof. There may always be additional federal laws or even Hawaii state laws imposing further restrictions, other than the ones I have found.

However, from what I've been able to gather, on the federal level regarding weapons in schools, there is only something called the "Gun-Free School Zones Act." It's quite strict, covering not only schools but even areas surrounding schools, but it only deals with firearms. It's also been repealed a couple times over the years; I didn't care to know all the details.

It seems to be the case that legislation regarding weapons in schools is generally left to each state to write down, just like how it is for weapons and firearms in general.

The DOE has their own administrative rules that prohibit students from bringing weapons onto campus IIRC. I'm headed to work right now and i'll see if i can't dig it up...

Yes, I believe you are referring to the Hawaii DOE's Chapter 19 Administrative Rules section. It's long so I'll once again cut and paste the relevant parts.

§8-19-6 Prohibited student conduct; class offenses. (a) The following prohibited conduct applies to all students in the public school system, on campus, or other department of education premises, on department of education transportation, or during a department of education sponsored activity or event on or off school property.
(1) Class A offenses:
(A) Assault;
(B) Burglary;
(C) Dangerous instrument, or substance; possession or use of;
(D) Dangerous weapons; possession, or use of;
(G) Fighting
(H) Firearms; possession or use of;
...

(3) Class C offenses:
(A) Abusive language;
(B) Class cutting;
(D) Laser pen/laser pointer; possession or use of;
(E) Leaving campus without consent;
(F) Smoking or use of tobacco substances
...

(b) Any student who possesses a firearm shall be dismissed from school for not less than one calendar year period. The possession or use of a firearm is prohibited on campus, or other department of education premises, on department of education transportation, or during a department of education sponsored activity or event on or off school property except for participation in athletic teams, clubs and/or Junior Reserve Officer Training Corp (JROTC) shooting sports programs and marksmanship training, education, and competitions. The superintendent or designee, on a case-by-case basis, may modify the dismissal of a student found to be in possession of a firearm. If a student is dismissed from school, that student shall be provided alternate educational activities or other appropriate assistance as provided in section 8-19-11.
(c) Any student who possesses, sells, or uses a dangerous weapon, switchblade knife or any improperly used knife, intoxicating substance(s), or illicit drug(s) while attending school may be excluded from attending school for up to ninety-two school days.

“Dangerous instrument, or ‘substance’” means any explosive device, instrument, material, or chemical, whether animate or inanimate, which in the manner it is used or is intended to be used is known to be capable of producing death or bodily injury. Examples of such items include but are not limited to knives, pipe bomb devices, fireworks, pepper spray, mace, martial arts devices such as sticks and throwing stars; and inanimate objects such as pipes, sticks, or baseball bats swung at a person in a menacing manner so as to cause or threaten bodily injury.
“Dangerous weapon” means an instrument whose sole design and purpose is to inflict bodily injury or death. Examples of such instruments include but are not limited to a dirk, dagger, butterfly knife, switchblade knife, blackjack, slug shot, billy, metal knuckles, or other weapons that inflict bodily injury or death.

So let's try to digest what that means.

First off, I could be wrong but I don't think these Hawaii DOE rules are laws from a legal standpoint. They are just rules for school kids. Nowhere in the entire Chapter 19 document did it mention the words misdemeanor, felony, or make reference to police arrests or legal prosecution, for ANY offense. The only punishments referred to in this document are generally suspensions from school, detentions, or the like. Of course, this does not preclude the possibility of legal prosecution if a crime has been committed, but breaking the rules as set forth in this document are not crimes if they are not established to be crimes in state/federal law, as far as I can tell.

Second note, this document only applies to public school students, not private school, as it writes.

Third note, the definition of "dangerous weapons" is the same here as in the state legal documents. However in the DOE rules there is also something called "dangerous instrument" defined very loosely. A folding knife would still not be a "dangerous weapon" but it could easily be a "dangerous instrument"....yet so could a pencil.

Fourth note, although possession of a "dangerous instrument" is a Class A school offense, there is nothing in this document stating the punishment. (Same goes for most of the offenses in this document).

Fifth note, the punishment for possession of a "dangerous weapon" as well as possibly a folding knife (the clause is very vague) is the same ninety-two day suspension from school. No big deal if that's all that happens. I don't think a pencil could possibly qualify here given the way it is written. So you can defend yourself with a pencil (of course, if you actually injure someone with it, you would be guilty of other offenses). Personally, I'd rather give my kid a folding knife and let him be in violation of this school rule, than let him have to use a pencil to defend himself. A pencil is deadly but to use its power you have to actually USE it because it doesn't have much threatening value. With a folding knife you might be in violation for possession, but you are less likely to actually have to use it.

Sixth note, assault and bullying are also Class A and Class B offenses but when they occur in schools, 99% of the time no punishment is given out even though it technically breaks these rules too. If the school doesn't take action on a Class A school offense that harms your kid, you as a parent should have every right to give them a folding knife to defend themselves with, which itself is only another Class A school offense.

When I was a kid I always carried a knife of some kind.  I never thought of it as a self defense weapon, just as another tool.  I just used my fists. We beat each other till someone submitted, then we were friends again the next day.  Guess things have changed somewhat.   

I don't know about giving a kid a knife and telling them to use it for SD.  They would need a lot of training to use effectively, and outcome of altercations may be deadly. 

I would suggest a healthy dose of martial art training instead.  A traditional type of sensei, that will PUNISH misbehavior, instead of the 'timeout' most places incorporate(ineffective IMO, and it worked wonders for me), teach respect, self confidence, and SELF-CONTROL.  Also, train kids to stay out of bad situations as much as possible, respect their elders, and be aware of surroundings.  I didn't grow-up in the best of neighborhoods, but these things kept me out of trouble, most of the time.

Most college students I knew back when I lived on the mainland carried a folding knife or something for personal protection. I'm one of the few people (being from the laid-back state of Hawaii) who never carried. I didn't consider my habits to be good though.

I just used fists in high school too. However, I did not fight with friends much. I fought with bullies and enemies. If you can call someone your friend the next day, or any day, your fight was not really serious. A serious fight can easily end in death or serious personal injury with or without knives.

If a boy or girl can get by with just using fists, of course that is better. Martial arts or self-defense training is good too. But sometimes that may not be enough, if the enemy is too numerous or too large. That's when you need something more. If people don't like the idea of knives, then at least carry pepper spray. From what I know it's surprisingly common that high school girls get raped in school by male students; most of these instances could be safely and easily prevented with pepper spray.

In regards to keeping out of trouble, well that only works for some people. It doesn't work for girls who are raped in the school bathroom by a bunch of guys, etc. The martial arts training only teaches respect and all that stuff to the person in the class, not the thugs or bullies in the street. And finally, martial arts training alone doesn't really teach you how to street fight.

Administrative rules can, and often do, carry the force of law.....not sure where the BOE ARs fall, but I would suspect that they do indeed carry the force of law.

Administrative agencies may also create laws. The federal and state constitutions implicitly give the legislatures the power to create administrative agencies. Administrative agencies are necessary because lawmakers often lack detailed knowledge about important issues, and they need experts to manage the regulation of complex subjects. On the federal level, for example, the Department of the Interior was created by Congress to manage the nation's natural resources. In creating the agency, Congress gave it power to promulgate regulations concerning the use and protection of natural resources.

Administrative agency regulations have the force of law if they have a binding effect on the rights and duties of persons.



Read more: Law - Agency Regulations And Executive Orders - Administrative, Federal, Agencies, Department, Force, and Rules http://law.jrank.org/pages/8091/Law-Agency-Regulations-Executive-Orders.html#ixzz14LkR31VD

http://law.jrank.org/pages/8091/Law-Agency-Regulations-Executive-Orders.html

If the Hawaii Department of Education Administrative Rules are considered to be laws, wouldn't they have to specify a form of legal punishment for each rule violation? In other words, specify that breaking rule X is a misdemeanor or felony, recommended jail sentences, etc?

The DOE Chapter 19 Administrative Rules document does not specify any form of punishment other than detentions or expulsions from school. Even if those are real laws, if those are not criminal offenses (nothing goes on your criminal record), they are still essentially powerless. You don't pay for public school, and being expelled is no big deal.

If the Hawaii Department of Education Administrative Rules are considered to be laws, wouldn't they have to specify a form of legal punishment for each rule violation? In other words, specify that breaking rule X is a misdemeanor or felony, recommended jail sentences, etc?

The DOE Chapter 19 Administrative Rules document does not specify any form of punishment other than detentions or expulsions from school. Even if those are real laws, if those are not criminal offenses (nothing goes on your criminal record), they are still essentially powerless. You don't pay for public school, and being expelled is no big deal.

I still don't get what you're trying to prove here.  There is a chance they can't legally arrest the child for possessing a weapon on school property.  Just as you said, the school uses their own in-house system of punishments with detentions, suspensions, and expulsions.  If being expelled from school is such a non-issue, why bother having the child in the dangerous school where they need to defend themselves with a knife, in the first place? 

The main stumbling block to your argument is the fact that grade school students are minors.  They can be arrested and charged as adults in the event that they commit a crime (like assaulting another student with a knife), however they are not legally responsible for their actions-- their parents or legal guardians are.  Moreover the school and the state would be open to a mountain of liability and risk in exchange for what seems to be very minimal gains (if any) for the school and the student population at large.   

As gun owners we are all taught to use our firearms only in self-defense to prevent the loss of life or severe bodily injury to ourselves or others around us.  That same cannot be said for giving a knife to a bullying-victim to fight off potentially unarmed bullies. Bullies are not murderers; they are not out to kill their victim.  They are tormentors who prolong their targets’ day to day suffering.  Now if you give a bully-victim a weapon and pretty much the go-ahead to use it when they’re bullied, well that’s just asking for trouble. 
"They were going to throw my book bag on the roof and give me a swirly, so I stabbed him in the stomach and slashed his throat"
"They were calling me names and hurting my self-esteem so I pepper sprayed their faces"

I don't mean to trivialize the matter but there are so many different degrees and levels of bullying, it's a complicated issue that cannot be simply fixed by arming the victims. 

Let’s not forget, the Columbine shooters and Cho the Virginia Tech shooter were also bully-victims with weapons. 

Basically what I'm advocating is that a kid being bullied or assaulted should carry around a folding knife (or pepper spray, if the former is deemed too extreme). If the school is not doing anything about bullying, maybe they won't do anything about the carrying student either. And if the school does decide to expel the student who carries, then the child is no longer in a dangerous school, as you have said. To me, it's a win-win situation and the student being bullied should carry. That's my logic.

I agree with you in that there are levels of bullying. I agree that name-calling and such are too trivial to justify any form of response. In my opinion, name-calling is not even bullying. Technically, according to the DOE Chapter 19 Administrative Rules, name-calling is not bullying.

But bullying can become severe enough that it endangers personal safety. I do not agree with your attempts to trivialize it. Do not forget that rapes and such also occur regularly in schools.

Since schools do not really have a police presence, and high school kids are immune from the law to some extent, they are not in an analogous situation with adults and firearms, like you tried to argue. Frankly, I am surprised that those who might advocate for CCW on the street would not even be willing to advocate for knife/spray carry in schools.

Basically what I'm advocating is that a kid being bullied or assaulted should carry around a folding knife (or pepper spray, if the former is deemed too extreme). If the school is not doing anything about bullying, maybe they won't do anything about the carrying student either. And if the school does decide to expel the student who carries, then the child is no longer in a dangerous school, as you have said. To me, it's a win-win situation and the student being bullied should carry. That's my logic.

I agree with you in that there are levels of bullying. I agree that name-calling and such are too trivial to justify any form of response. In my opinion, name-calling is not even bullying. Technically, according to the DOE Chapter 19 Administrative Rules, name-calling is not bullying.

But bullying can become severe enough that it endangers personal safety. I do not agree with your attempts to trivialize it. Do not forget that rapes and such also occur regularly in schools.

Since schools do not really have a police presence, and high school kids are immune from the law to some extent, they are not in an analogous situation with adults and firearms, like you tried to argue. Frankly, I am surprised that those who might advocate for CCW on the street would not even be willing to advocate for knife/spray carry in schools.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I believe the point that Antithesis was trying to make is that if the school is so dangerous that the parent feels the need to provide the child with pepper spray or a knife for self defense, then maybe the answer is to find another school or begin homeschooling instead. First, a knife or pepper spray is not guaranteed to deescalate the situation; second, there is a host of liability problems that would go along with giving them a weapon for self-defense. As CCW advocates, the first thing to remember is that we are not looking to put ourselves in bad situations so that we can use our weapons. Our PRIMARY responsibility is to AVOID conflict whenever possible. It's like when people say, "If you know you're going to get in a gun fight, bring a rifle and some friends," but what I say is "If you know you're going to get in a gun fight, STAY HOME" (I'm talking about civilians here; Mil/LEO are obviously an exception to this rule).

I believe in allowing students to concealed carry on college campuses, but elementary/middle/high school is a very different dynamic and I personally don't feel that giving them weapons is the right answer.

Also, what are the statistics for rapes that occur on school grounds?

- Alex

.

Since schools do not really have a police presence, and high school kids are immune from the law to some extent, they are not in an analogous situation with adults and firearms, like you tried to argue. Frankly, I am surprised that those who might advocate for CCW on the street would not even be willing to advocate for knife/spray carry in schools.

Please explain how high school students are immune from the law...

Since schools do not really have a police presence, and high school kids are immune from the law to some extent, they are not in an analogous situation with adults and firearms, like you tried to argue. Frankly, I am surprised that those who might advocate for CCW on the street would not even be willing to advocate for knife/spray carry in schools.

Just so you know, people under the age of 18 aren't allowed to carry, so it actually makes sense for CCW advocates not supporting minors carrying knives/spray. And kids are not at all immune from the law. Ever seen a kid take drugs to school, or knives? They get arrested. Of course the school has no arresting authority, but they can hold the child and call the police. Just to clarify

Quote from: PeaShooter on November 04, 2010, 10:07:45 PM

Since schools do not really have a police presence, and high school kids are immune from the law to some extent, they are not in an analogous situation with adults and firearms, like you tried to argue. Frankly, I am surprised that those who might advocate for CCW on the street would not even be willing to advocate for knife/spray carry in schools.

Just so you know, people under the age of 18 aren't allowed to carry, so it actually makes sense for CCW advocates not supporting minors carrying knives/spray. And kids are not at all immune from the law. Ever seen a kid take drugs to school, or knives? They get arrested. Of course the school has no arresting authority, but they can hold the child and call the police. Just to clarify

Ahmen.

Peashooter, just google "juveniles tried as adults" and go from there.

In my previous post, I said that high school kids (juveniles) were immune from the law to some extent. I only brought that point up because Antithesis brought it up in the post just prior. Up until then I hadn't used that argument for anything.

Alex, usually what happens is indeed that kids are removed from school. Or they just stay in school and be tormented (which could include recurring injury or rape) until they graduate. However, parents don't want to have to remove their kid from school just because they are being bullied. That is not fair to the kid. He loses his chance at getting a high school education because of the pseudo-illegal actions of bullies and rapists on school grounds, and school administration shirking their responsibility to deal with bullies.

If the kid instead decides to carry a knife or spray, they at least get a chance to remain in school. They also submit to the chance of being expelled and sent home to be homeschooled or not schooled, but that's the same result as your suggestion so no change there. There are indeed liability problems, but this is an issue for the school, not the students. Schools shouldn't be left off the hook because allowing kids to carry puts them at risk: it's school administration that is the problem to begin with and they deserve to be punished for their lack of control of students on school campus.

I don't agree that college kids, or even adults, are somehow suddenly on a different level of maturity than high school kids. I think that is America's viewpoint in general and on average; but it is something I disagree with in the context of many issues. I think high school kids should be treated more similarly to adults. Because they are treated so differently, kids are subjected to semi-legal bullying and raping, and schools become dysfunctional due to the general atmosphere of unlawfulness that prevails within them.

I think that statistics for rapes/bullying would be interesting, but at the same time, most statistics are likely to be inaccurate. It's not easy to get accurate statistics for these sorts of things. Most statistics come from surveys of students or administration, but neither students nor administration have a strong incentive to tell the truth, or are even guaranteed to have the knowledge required for accurate replies. Most schools do not admit to bullying cases when they happen. They always feign ignorance. I am not as sure about rapes, but when I was in high school, we had at least a couple (that I knew of personally) and both were covered up by the school. No male students were ever expelled, and the female students left school for a semester or two. The students in general were told that the female students had gotten very sick, probably few knew the truth.

Another word of caution regarding statistics is that whatever they are, it shouldn't really matter. Even if only 0.1% of students are raped or are rapists, that's no excuse to ignore the crime. Probably only 0.1% of adults are criminals, but when they commit assault or rape they are put into prison.