Hawaii History (Read 18128 times)

FATMANWA

Hawaii History
« on: October 01, 2013, 11:32:42 AM »
I have been thinking of reading up on more of the history of Hawaii and am wondering if anyone knows of a nonbiased book out there. It seems like every book I find on Amazon has reviews saying the auther is crazy or something like that. Anybody got suggestions on a good history book?

aieahound

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 11:47:11 AM »
For Modern history ( the last century)  I would recommend Land and Power in Hawaii by Cooper and Daws.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0824813030/?tag=2ahawaii-20

You need to also know about the Great Mahele, but I don't personally know of any particular titles.
There's all kind of perspectives on that.

GZire

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 11:08:35 AM »
Kind of hard to not get a biased view.

Best thing is to focus on the works of the great Hawaiian Scholars, like Pukui and Kamakau, and then force yourself to take an objective view from both sides.

A good book off the top of my head is 'Ruling Chiefs of Hawaii', and if you can read the books 'Nana i ke kumu'; they will give you a good insight of focus into Hawaiian culture, and not focus on all the anti-imperial / anti-American sentiment that is plastered into most new works.

Agreed.  There will always be some bias.

hvybarrels

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2013, 12:12:01 AM »
Any period in particular you are interested in? There's a pretty incredible collection of Pacific texts at UH Hamilton library with lots of stuff you can't find anywhere else, but you can't check out any of the super-rare materials and have to use the reading room.
They will look you in the eyes and say "We are the normal ones" and then bark at you because they identify as a dog.

FATMANWA

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 09:24:51 AM »
Any period in particular you are interested in? There's a pretty incredible collection of Pacific texts at UH Hamilton library with lots of stuff you can't find anywhere else, but you can't check out any of the super-rare materials and have to use the reading room.

I guess any of it. What I am really concered of course is a biased view on the events that lead to Hawaii becoming a state as I know if is a very heated subject to many.

ButtNutt

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 05:53:41 PM »
I've read them all over many years and the definitive book is TO STEAL A KINGDOM
To Steal a Kingdom: Probing Hawaiian History
http://amzn.com/096334840X
the title implies a bias but the reality - by any objective measure - is that Hawaiians got exploited, plundered and pillaged by haole (hawaiian, not colloquial meaning) of many backgrounds, but with the complicity of the monarchy - the paramount example of course was Pai'ea, because that is where it started.  This book illustrates this in no uncertain terms, is meticulously researched and presented, but will not savage you with biased fairy tale boredom like a Kuykendall or Daws revisionist hawaiian history.  I've gifted this book to kanaka maoli with the most profound understanding of their culture and they were left speechless. 

ButtNutt

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 11:53:25 PM »
I am intimately aware of everything your wrote but it doesn't challenge anything I said or wrote, so I'm not sure what you were referring to as 'false'.

Here's the simple truth:

1) you were alluding to an analysis of the disparate (hawaiian vs western) concept of land purchase/ownership/rights (pre OR Mahele) similar to that which is cited by scholars regarding the 'purchase' of manhattan island from the indigenous population there.

But I don't think that that discrepancy is universally relevant to the monarchy's complicity in the destruction of Hawaii. In other words - when I referred to Pai'ea - he was very explicitly clear on the terms of many of the quid-pro-quos that he oversaw, which ultimately screwed his people - which he tortuously lamented as he neared death.  This of course was - if I can boil it down to its simplest terms - that he was effectively consciously willing to administer the obliteration of vast precious resources in exchange for anything and everything western (arms, supplies, explosives, metal, etc.) that would facilitate his consolidation of hawaii.  That is what I was referring to, and it is indisputable. Haole wanted to exploit - allowed Hawaii to be exploited!

2) as far as the Mahele, I won't illustrate what a duplicitous land grab that was for the haole, because its not debatable. By design, average Hawaiians got worthless shit land; missionaries, judds, bishops, damons, knudsens et alia and their mainland family members got prime rib by simply 'adopting' Hawaiian names when necessary....and you know the rest.

The book I cited simply illustrates the truth. There is no arguing that with rare exception, haole of all types sought to profit from and acquire land from Hawaiians, and the monarchy let it happen - with exceptions of course. Sometimes they let it happen with eyes wise open, sometimes they were deceived.

Hey man...kalakaua would have sold his own balls - one at a time, off with a full knife - so long as the haole kept his liquor flowing! 

After explaining a little further, You should see nothing i wrote evidences a bias, by me or the book's author.  It's an honest assessment and reality is what it is.

FATMANWA

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2013, 07:49:52 AM »
 :popcorn:

ButtNutt

Hawaii History
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2013, 01:30:47 PM »
What I was implying was that your reference and explanation of the book implied that it was westerner's/Haole's who 'exploited and ravaged' our people; I am stating that is false.

While westerners do have a significant role in the issue, the blame should truly rest with the monarchy and our ancestors themselves. Rather than rebel and fight back, they simply went along with and allowed the depletion of our resources and the destruction of our independence and sovereignty. In fact, the last person to wage war to protect the Hawaiian way of life was Kekuaokalani at the Battle of Kuamo'o, but he was ultimately defeated, and with him died the pride and honor of our people to fight for their way of life.

Hawaiians refuse to accept this point of view, because they so wholeheartedly want to put the blame on someone else rather than the mistakes of our own people. I know, because I used to believe that the 'evil white man' was the cause of our hardships, until I learned and understood that we have no one to blame other than ourselves for what was never done, as well as what still needs to be done today.
...it appears we agree on the complicity of the monarchy and westernized corrupted Hawaiians who continued to destroy Hawaii after the monarchy became figurehead.
Regarding who gets more blame?  Well, this is subjective of course, but I have more contempt for the exploiters than I do for those who allowed themselves to be exploited, because the former were purely deceitful and evil since they disguised themselves in Christianity and benevolence; in contrast, the latter were aware they were not bestly serving the people who trusted them to, but to an un-ignorable extent, they did so because they believed the exploiters had nothing but Godly, benevolent intentions - while of course they did not.
Of course, our entire exchange was viable since it was restricted to the early years where exploitation and complicity are debatable. I don't know your opinion but as far as the events leading up to and after the overthrow, they were played out with no monarchy complicity, and nothing more than token native legislative representation. Im sure Lili'u wished she asked hawaiians to fight back, but that's another discussion.
And for the record, the non-plebiscite statehood incorporation played out without native complicity as well.
Your thoughts on these last two events?

Q

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2013, 03:09:00 PM »
...it appears we agree on the complicity of the monarchy and westernized corrupted Hawaiians who continued to destroy Hawaii after the monarchy became figurehead.
Regarding who gets more blame?  Well, this is subjective of course, but I have more contempt for the exploiters than I do for those who allowed themselves to be exploited, because the former were purely deceitful and evil since they disguised themselves in Christianity and benevolence; in contrast, the latter were aware they were not bestly serving the people who trusted them to, but to an un-ignorable extent, they did so because they believed the exploiters had nothing but Godly, benevolent intentions - while of course they did not.
Of course, our entire exchange was viable since it was restricted to the early years where exploitation and complicity are debatable. I don't know your opinion but as far as the events leading up to and after the overthrow, they were played out with no monarchy complicity, and nothing more than token native legislative representation. Im sure Lili'u wished she asked hawaiians to fight back, but that's another discussion.
And for the record, the non-plebiscite statehood incorporation played out without native complicity as well.
Your thoughts on these last two events?

You are using big words that do not justify your point. In fact, I'm very confused with the point you are trying to make, because basically you stated that you already have a biased towards the 'exploiters', which you deem to be non-Hawaiians, yet out of all the monarchs and chiefs that ruled over the people of Hawaii, I did not see any of them taking the steps to relinquish their power, nor provide the opportunity for their people to pursue the path to individual achievement and prosperity. In a more specific example, Kalakaua depleted much of the kingdom's resources to build 'Iolani palace, which was a testimate to his power, and had no significant benefit to the Hawaiian people at all. Aside from Pauahi (to an extent), our chiefs and monarchs did not thing but exploit the population of Hawaii to consolidate their power, so they are no better, if not worse, than these western exploiters that you speak of.

To expand upon the highlighted points:

1) The original missionaries came here with the sole intent of spreading Christianity, at the bequest of of Henry Opukaha'ia, who had changed his life through Christianity and wanted the same for his people. It was only after the industrialization of Hawaii, which was allowed by King Kamehameha II and all subsequent monarchs, that allowed westerner ambition and greed to take hold in the islands. Most, if not all, of those 'white exploiters' were the descendants of missionaries, not missionaries themselves.

2) You claim that the 'exploitees' had no idea what was going on, and that they wholeheartedly believed that the unfair actions of their western counterparts were acting out of benevolence and in the name of Christianity. When you make statements like this, you basically state that our people were ignorant idiots, who had no idea what was going on, and blindly followed along because they had no intelligence whatsoever. This, again, is false, as is evident throughout history not only during the Hawaiian kingdom, but prior to it as well. When chiefs overstepped their grounds, the people rose up and killed them (in rare instances). When Captain Cooke overstayed his welcome, they grew suspicious that he was not a god, and when he returned after his ship was damaged by a storm shortly after leaving Hawaii, it validated their claim that he was not Lono, which was further validated after they killed him. These, as well as many other instances, prove that our people fully understood what was going on in the world, and in a basic sense could distinguish between what was BS and what was real. To say otherwise and claim they had no basic idea that they were being taken advantage of is ludicrous.

To say that they followed along blindly is to basically associate our ancestors with modern day liberals, a point which I beg to differ on. I believe that the people had no alternative other than to follow the demands of their monarchs, as they did not possess the individual freedoms that we enjoy today. Prior to the Hawaiian kingdom and the introduction of Christianity, the Ali'i and Mo'i were Gods. Though there have been instances when the people rose up against the Ali'i, those in power have, for the moat part, been revered and feared by the people. After the establishment of the Kingdom and Monarchy, they still maintained their political symbolism, regardless of if they were believed to be gods or not. The people, afraid of superstitious and physical retaliation (such as death or imprisonment), essentially had no choice but to go along with the decisions of the monarchy. To verify this claim, how many protests against the decisions of the Hawaiian monarchy can you recall? ZERO, because they would have been imprisoned or put to death, just as it was before the establishment of the kingdom. The only protest that took place was after the election of Kalakaua, as the supporters of Queen Emma were not happy with the results.

Given that the people had no concept other than following their monarchs, who was it that made the decisions and allowed the actions that would, in time, destroy our natural resources and independence? The monarchy. The could have easily resisted the encroachment of foreigners, and rallied people to support their cause. However, like modern day legislators in this country and across the world, they were only concerned with themselves and their own wealth and political power. In another light, the people should have had the courage to fight for their beliefs and ways of life, just as our colonial ancestors did during the American Revolution. Instead, they followed the will of their kings and queens, whose decisions and actions eventually lead to the destruction and overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom.

To equate this theory in modern terms, do we blame the Chinese for the economic decisions of our country? Do we blame the followers of Islam for the destruction of Christianity within America? No; we blame the legislators and those in political office for their decisions. In more lament terms, claiming that the evil westerners are primarily responsible for what happened in Hawaii is like stating that the reason someone is fat is because of the spoon.

In conclusion, while those whom did extort Hawaii did so unjustly and immorally, I believe that most of the responsibility lies with those who failed to act in the best interest of our kingdom and our people, and those people being the monarchy and our ancestors. As Jefferson stated, "The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance." I guess the independence of our nation was not something our people and monarchy felt was worth fighting and dying for.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 08:53:16 PM by Q »

ButtNutt

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 03:13:40 AM »

You are using big words that do not justify your point. In fact, I'm very confused with the point you are trying to make, because basically you stated that you already have a biased towards the 'exploiters', which you deem to be non-Hawaiians, yet out of all the monarchs and chiefs that ruled over the people of Hawaii, I did not see any of them taking the steps to relinquish their power, nor provide the opportunity for their people to pursue the path to individual achievement and prosperity. In a more specific example, Kalakaua depleted much of the kingdom's resources to build 'Iolani palace, which was a testimate to his power, and had no significant benefit to the Hawaiian people at all. Aside from Pauahi (to an extent), our chiefs and monarchs did not thing but exploit the population of Hawaii to consolidate their power, so they are no better, if not worse, than these western exploiters that you speak of.

To expand upon the highlighted points:

1) The original missionaries came here with the sole intent of spreading Christianity, at the bequest of of Henry Opukaha'ia, who had changed his life through Christianity and wanted the same for his people. It was only after the industrialization of Hawaii, which was allowed by King Kamehameha II and all subsequent monarchs, that allowed westerner ambition and greed to take hold in the islands. Most, if not all, of those 'white exploiters' were the descendants of missionaries, not missionaries themselves.

2) You claim that the 'exploitees' had no idea what was going on, and that they wholeheartedly believed that the unfair actions of their western counterparts were acting out of benevolence and in the name of Christianity. When you make statements like this, you basically state that our people were ignorant idiots, who had no idea what was going on, and blindly followed along because they had no intelligence whatsoever. This, again, is false, as is evident throughout history not only during the Hawaiian kingdom, but prior to it as well. When chiefs overstepped their grounds, the people rose up and killed them (in rare instances). When Captain Cooke overstayed his welcome, they grew suspicious that he was not a god, and when he returned after his ship was damaged by a storm shortly after leaving Hawaii, it validated their claim that he was not Lono, which was further validated after they killed him. These, as well as many other instances, prove that our people fully understood what was going on in the world, and in a basic sense could distinguish between what was BS and what was real. To say otherwise and claim they had no basic idea that they were being taken advantage of is ludicrous.

To say that they followed along blindly is to basically associate our ancestors with modern day liberals, a point which I beg to differ on. I believe that the people had no alternative other than to follow the demands of their monarchs, as they did not possess the individual freedoms that we enjoy today. Prior to the Hawaiian kingdom and the introduction of Christianity, the Ali'i and Mo'i were Gods. Though there have been instances when the people rose up against the Ali'i, those in power have, for the moat part, been revered and feared by the people. After the establishment of the Kingdom and Monarchy, they still maintained their political symbolism, regardless of if they were believed to be gods or not. The people, afraid of superstitious and physical retaliation (such as death or imprisonment), essentially had no choice but to go along with the decisions of the monarchy. To verify this claim, how many protests against the decisions of the Hawaiian monarchy can you recall? ZERO, because they would have been imprisoned or put to death, just as it was before the establishment of the kingdom. The only protest that took place was after the election of Kalakaua, as the supporters of Queen Emma were not happy with the results.

Given that the people had no concept other than following their monarchs, who was it that made the decisions and allowed the actions that would, in time, destroy our natural resources and independence? The monarchy. The could have easily resisted the encroachment of foreigners, and rallied people to support their cause. However, like modern day legislators in this country and across the world, they were only concerned with themselves and their own wealth and political power. In another light, the people should have had the courage to fight for their beliefs and ways of life, just as our colonial ancestors did during the American Revolution. Instead, they followed the will of their kings and queens, whose decisions and actions eventually lead to the destruction and overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom.

To equate this theory in modern terms, do we blame the Chinese for the economic decisions of our country? Do we blame the followers of Islam for the destruction of Christianity within America? No; we blame the legislators and those in political office for their decisions. In more lament terms, claiming that the evil westerners are primarily responsible for what happened in Hawaii is like stating that the reason someone is fat is because of the spoon.

In conclusion, while those whom did extort Hawaii did so unjustly and immorally, I believe that most of the responsibility lies with those who failed to act in the best interest of our kingdom and our people, and those people being the monarchy and our ancestors. As Jefferson stated, "The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance." I guess the independence of our nation was not something our people and monarchy felt was worth fighting and dying for.

After numerous personal interactions with you and witnessing your interactions with countless others on this forum, here's something you've doubtlessly been told before:
You are insane; ego maniacal; punitive; disrespectful; bullying; hostile; delusional; paranoid; angry; condescending; ugly; intolerant; self aggrandizing; intensely insufferable.  With rare exception you grotesquely misinterpret peoples sentiment and meaning, are most often misinformed, yet speak with the absolute certainty and grandiosity of a jim jones like nut case.
worst of all, all these wretched qualities you spread around 2ahawaii with the ubiquity of air itself, as you seem to be everywhere at once.  I can not seem to ever escape your stifling presence; you - and no one else - have made me change my user name a few times, after having suffered your insanity to the point where I react to you once again.
And by the way..... "big words"? No word I used in the last or any post was beyond middle school vocabulary.
Now go wipe you nose and call the mods, and I'll wait for this post to vanish.

Q

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2013, 01:20:51 PM »
After numerous personal interactions with you and witnessing your interactions with countless others on this forum, here's something you've doubtlessly been told before:
You are insane; ego maniacal; punitive; disrespectful; bullying; hostile; delusional; paranoid; angry; condescending; ugly; intolerant; self aggrandizing; intensely insufferable.  With rare exception you grotesquely misinterpret peoples sentiment and meaning, are most often misinformed, yet speak with the absolute certainty and grandiosity of a jim jones like nut case.
worst of all, all these wretched qualities you spread around 2ahawaii with the ubiquity of air itself, as you seem to be everywhere at once.  I can not seem to ever escape your stifling presence; you - and no one else - have made me change my user name a few times, after having suffered your insanity to the point where I react to you once again.
And by the way..... "big words"? No word I used in the last or any post was beyond middle school vocabulary.
Now go wipe you nose and call the mods, and I'll wait for this post to vanish.

I never called the mods on you. I'll even call on the admin to verify that I never contacted them if they are willing to answer.    And thank you for your kind words, ma'am! ;D

It would seem that you are butt hurt because 1) You have been proven wrong, and/or 2) I have proved that everything you have believed in was complete BS with legitimate reasoning and debate. The point of this thread was to direct FATMANWA to unbiased information about our history and culture, so don't cry when someone who has studied Hawaiian history for almost a decade proves you wrong, simply because I do not agree with your opinion or the opinion of the majority of Hawaiians, many whom have learned our history not by reading actual works of Hawaiian scholars or periodicals from the time, but from what they heard growing up.

Q

Darmok and Jalad @Tanagra

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2013, 05:46:51 PM »
*** DRAMA   X   40 ***

 :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:     

After numerous personal interactions with you and witnessing your interactions with countless others on this forum, here's something you've doubtlessly been told before:
You are insane; ego maniacal; punitive; disrespectful; bullying; hostile; delusional; paranoid; angry; condescending; ugly; intolerant; self aggrandizing; intensely insufferable.  With rare exception you grotesquely misinterpret peoples sentiment and meaning, are most often misinformed, yet speak with the absolute certainty and grandiosity of a jim jones like nut case.
worst of all, all these wretched qualities you spread around 2ahawaii with the ubiquity of air itself, as you seem to be everywhere at once.  I can not seem to ever escape your stifling presence; you - and no one else - have made me change my user name a few times, after having suffered your insanity to the point where I react to you once again.
And by the way..... "big words"? No word I used in the last or any post was beyond middle school vocabulary.
Now go wipe you nose and call the mods, and I'll wait for this post to vanish.

 :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:     
"... the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis

Q

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 06:20:22 PM »
*** DRAMA   X   40 ***

 :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:     

 :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:       :popcorn:     

Is this poporn full fat butter or fat free butter?

 :popcorn:

Darmok and Jalad @Tanagra

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2013, 06:24:50 PM »
Is this poporn full fat butter or fat free butter?

 :popcorn:

Full-on fatty butter.  No trans fat crap!

And each is "refillable" ... forever!!  :thumbsup:
"... the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis

Q

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2013, 06:26:05 PM »
Full-on fatty butter.  No trans fat crap!

And each is "refillable" ... forever!!  :thumbsup:

?!?!

In that case: I'll take 2, thank you very much.

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Darmok and Jalad @Tanagra

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2013, 06:31:11 PM »
?!?!

In that case: I'll take 2, thank you very much.

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

You think buttnutt would want some popcorn with his glass of whine?

Maybe extra butter would help relieve the "butt hurt" feeling he's displaying? 

"Go, get the butter."
 -- Marlon Brando, Last Tango in Paris
"... the right to be let alone -- the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis

Q

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2013, 07:02:22 PM »
Maybe extra butter would help relieve the "butt hurt" feeling he's displaying? 

"Go, get the butter."
 -- Marlon Brando, Last Tango in Paris

Now now...lets not resort to name calling.  :shaka:

ButtNutt

Re: Hawaii History
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 07:13:32 PM »
Ponderous....absolutely fucking ponderous.