I would give you the HRS but since you know everything you can go read the HRS and find it your damn self.

I don't know everything, and I would be more than interested in seeing the statute.  Would you be kind enough to provide it? I've already searched through my available methods and I have not produced anything fruitful yet.

I don't know everything, and I would be more than interested in seeing the statute.  Would you be kind enough to provide it? I've already searched through my available methods and I have not produced anything fruitful yet.

The only thing I could find was HRS Section 291c-172(a), but that section appears to apply only to traffic offenses and is an infraction/not an arrestable(criminal) offense.

Can't find anything either


HRS 291 is all related to traffic
And 172 is refered back to part vii:  pedestrian failing to obey signals ( jaywalking)

Another example ( not real )

Having a picnic at Waihiawa  fresh water boat launch Public picnic table area. Just grindz and talk story.

No signs of fishing gear whatsoever nearby except a cooler.

Fishing gear is lock in the trunk of car parked 20 yards away. ( not in plain view ). I fish saltwater, do not have a fresh water license.

DLNR walks up  " do have ID, fishing license, what's in the cooler, can you open it? "

Obligated to just refuse to answer all his questions?

I've been unable to find a statute that provides for HPD being able to demand ID without cause, as far as I can see, it doesn't exist.

They can ask to see your drivers license if you're operating a vehicle, they can demand id if you're suspected of a crime.

So it comes down to knowing your rights. You DO have a right to ask questions, and they MUST answer. [ I've had them tell me they don't, that's BS ]

Let's take suka's example;
 While minding your own business, an officer walks up and demands ID, and further asks if you have a fishing license, and asks to look in your cooler. How do you respond?

First, keep it polite, there's no reason to be confrontational. Simply ask "Why officer?", at that point he can either explain himself to your satisfaction, or he can demand ID without explaining himself.
 In the case of the latter, your response should be: "Am I being detained?" If he answers "No" simply say "have a nice day officer."
If he says "Yes", understand that you have a RIGHT to know what you're suspected of, and he MUST explain it to you. As long as he does, present your ID, if you don't, he can charge you with obstruction. [ If you don't have ID on you, give him your name and birthdate, or ss number.] Don't be afraid to ask "What am I being charged with?"

As far as the fishing license, "I'm not fishing" will do, he has no right to pursue the matter further if you're not actively fishing.

As far as the cooler, it's your personal property and as such is protected under the 4th amendment. He has no right to search it without your permission, or a warrant. If you give him permission, you have waived your rights to protection under the law.
You should just say "I don't submit to any searches of myself or my property". If he proceeds anyway, he's breaking the law.

Always remember, the police can lie to you to get you incriminate yourself, or waive your rights. You must know your rights under the law!

Most importantly, you should either be filming the encounter [ yes, you have a right to] or you should have some good friends around to witness the encounter. If it's your word against the officer's, the court will ALWAYS find in his favor.
                                                               
                                                                                                     

Another example ( not real )

Having a picnic at Waihiawa  fresh water boat launch Public picnic table area. Just grindz and talk story.

No signs of fishing gear whatsoever nearby except a cooler.

Fishing gear is lock in the trunk of car parked 20 yards away. ( not in plain view ). I fish saltwater, do not have a fresh water license.

DLNR walks up  " do have ID, fishing license, what's in the cooler, can you open it? "

Obligated to just refuse to answer all his questions?

You're in a public park. There is no drinking in a public park. You have a cooler. Coolers are used to keep beer cold among other things. Now he has PC to talk to you. How do you know he hasn't received a complaint that someone was drinking in the park. Sometimes it easier to just comply then to act like a dumb ass and dig yourself deeper in a hole.   

Just like the earlier example about the guy in Waikiki. How do you know hpd wasn't called there for the drunk guy.

If they approach you 99.9 % they already have PC.

HAWAII STATUTES AND CODES

§291C-172  Refusal to provide identification.

     (a)  Except as provided in subsection (b), any person detained for a violation of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address, or any proof thereof, or both, upon the lawful order or direction of any police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties pursuant to this chapter.

     (b)  A pedestrian who is detained for violating part VII of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address upon the lawful order or direction of a police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties.  If the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is being deceptive or misleading in providing the person's name and address, the person shall provide such proof thereof, upon the lawful order or direction of the police officer. [L 1978, c 111, pt of §2; am L 1984, c 215, §1; am L 1995, c 169, §1]

You're in a public park. There is no drinking in a public park. You have a cooler. Coolers are used to keep beer cold among other things. Now he has PC to talk to you. How do you know he hasn't received a complaint that someone was drinking in the park. Sometimes it easier to just comply then to act like a dumb ass and dig yourself deeper in a hole.   

Just like the earlier example about the guy in Waikiki. How do you know hpd wasn't called there for the drunk guy.

If they approach you 99.9 % they already have PC.

BS, the fact that you have a cooler is not probable cause. He has no idea what's in the cooler. If he saw you with a beer in your hand, that's probable cause.

He still has to explain WHY he's asking for ID. You are not compelled to give it to him simply because he demands it, the 4th amendment applies.

HAWAII STATUTES AND CODES

§291C-172  Refusal to provide identification.

     (a)  Except as provided in subsection (b), any person detained for a violation of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address, or any proof thereof, or both, upon the lawful order or direction of any police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties pursuant to this chapter.

     (b)  A pedestrian who is detained for violating part VII of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address upon the lawful order or direction of a police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties.  If the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is being deceptive or misleading in providing the person's name and address, the person shall provide such proof thereof, upon the lawful order or direction of the police officer. [L 1978, c 111, pt of §2; am L 1984, c 215, §1; am L 1995, c 169, §1]

The key word is "Detained". If you're not being detained, you are not compelled by law to present ID.

BS, the fact that you have a cooler is not probable cause. He has no idea what's in the cooler. If he saw you with a beer in your hand, that's probable cause.

He still has to explain WHY he's asking for ID. You are not compelled to give it to him simply because he demands it, the 4th amendment applies.

If he got a complaint he has a duty to investigate. In the course of his investigation you have a cooler. Now you're compelled to provide an ID. He has another thing called reasonable suspicion.

HAWAII STATUTES AND CODES

§291C-172  Refusal to provide identification.

     (a)  Except as provided in subsection (b), any person detained for a violation of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address, or any proof thereof, or both, upon the lawful order or direction of any police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties pursuant to this chapter.

     (b)  A pedestrian who is detained for violating part VII of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address upon the lawful order or direction of a police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties.  If the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is being deceptive or misleading in providing the person's name and address, the person shall provide such proof thereof, upon the lawful order or direction of the police officer. [L 1978, c 111, pt of §2; am L 1984, c 215, §1; am L 1995, c 169, §1]

Further, if you are being detained you have a RIGHT to know what you're being detained for, the officers innate curiosity isn't enough to denote probable cause.
 Remember, the burden of proof is on the STATE. You're innocent until PROVEN guilty, and the 5th amendment gives you RIGHT to NOT incriminate yourself.

If he got a complaint he has a duty to investigate. In the course of his investigation you have a cooler. Now you're compelled to provide an ID. He has another thing called reasonable suspicion.

Only if he's told you you're being detained, if you're NOT being detained, he may ask, but you are not compelled to comply. As far as the cooler, the 4th amendment applies.

HAWAII STATUTES AND CODES

§291C-172  Refusal to provide identification.

     (a)  Except as provided in subsection (b), any person detained for a violation of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address, or any proof thereof, or both, upon the lawful order or direction of any police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties pursuant to this chapter.

     (b)  A pedestrian who is detained for violating part VII of this chapter shall provide the person's name and address upon the lawful order or direction of a police officer in the course and scope of the officer's duties.  If the officer has reasonable grounds to believe that the person is being deceptive or misleading in providing the person's name and address, the person shall provide such proof thereof, upon the lawful order or direction of the police officer. [L 1978, c 111, pt of §2; am L 1984, c 215, §1; am L 1995, c 169, §1]

The key word here is "detained."  As I said earlier, if the conversation is consensual, no ID is required (except when driving or flying).  This section specifies you are being detained.  That requires the officer has probable cause you have or are about to commit a crime, in which case you must identify yourself.  To give fake information is a crime in and of itself if detained.

As for the cooler example, NO!  The officer can not assume you have beer in your cooler.  Saying "How do you know he hasn't received a complaint that someone was drinking in the park. Sometimes it easier to just comply"   is ridiculous.  He must have a reasonable suspicion based on an articulable fact WHY he has that suspicion. 

How do you know WHY the COP is asking for ID?  You open your mouth and ASK HIM, "Sir, are you asking because you think I've broken some law?" 

That's not being an a hole.  That's being a well-informed citizen who knows compliance with whatever a policeman tells you to do is NOT required if you are breaking no laws and if the request is not related to safety (like being asked to move your car so approaching emergency vehicles can take your place).  Either he leaves you alone at that point, or he explains what you are doing wrong.  Searching a cooler or detaining you without probable cause is illegal.  COPS have to follow the laws, too.  They can only exceed their legal authority if we allow it.

YOU do whatever makes you feel cooperative.  I'll do what keeps me out of jail by not handing the police a case against myself.  We have the right to not incriminate ourselves.  The only a hole is the one who advocates everyone follow your lead and comply every time when it's the worst possible thing you could do.


If you haven't ever watched this video, it's worth the time.  It's over 48 minutes, and if you don't have that much time or attention span  , at least watch the first speaker.  He's much more entertaining than the COP, anyway!

If he got a complaint he has a duty to investigate. In the course of his investigation you have a cooler. Now you're compelled to provide an ID. He has another thing called reasonable suspicion.

Sir, you are just not correct in your application of search and seizure law. He has to articulate why - my cooler - among all other coolers needs to be inspected. You can't just go around inspecting everyones cooler.  Insert - backpack, purse, car, home, pockets or any other compartment and the point should be clearly evident to you. Moreover, it's not a crime to have a cooler, which means you can't detain me and compel me to provide identification. You can't just say, "Oh, I had a report."   What if they reported the guy was black? Just going to run through and stop every black man in the park? Try that in Chicago or Oakland - see how it works out for you.

What articulation would you utilize to justify your stop and detain me? I would certainly tell you that I'm not answering any questions and will not comply or consent to searches of my person or property.

You said that you have experience in this stuff, I'm really starting to wonder what type of agency or entity you could work for that didn't train you properly on this. 


To prove my point, I could always bring my cooler near you while on duty and you can try inspecting it without a warrant!  My friends kids need more college funds.

I'm currently up a win against the city and they are having to pay my legal expenses for thinking they can delete comments off of Facebook.  I will soon be 2-0 with the completion of a gun case.  We could count it 3-0 if you consider our draft of a lawsuit made parks department comply with our demands. 

Also, that law is only for that chapter.  So, one must be detained for a violation in and under Chapter 291: Traffic Violations for the failure to identify law to apply.

You said that you have experience in this stuff, I'm really starting to wonder what type of agency or entity you could work for that didn't train you properly on this. 

I get the impression his "experience" is not from Law Enforcement's perspective ... 

If he got a complaint he has a duty to investigate. In the course of his investigation you have a cooler. Now you're compelled to provide an ID. He has another thing called reasonable suspicion.

So, there is a complaint that someone in the park is selling drugs but without any further description of the suspect. Since drugs can be hidden in pockets, purses, bags, and cars, and there is no description of the suspect, that allows the responding police officer to search everyone's pockets, purses, bags and cars?

Yeah, I don't think so......

Many people may not be aware, but Hawaii has some of the strongest fourth amendment protections in the entire country.

To add:

You can see in part (2) that a pedestrian must be lawfully detained under:

Part XIII. Operation of Bicycles and Play Vehicles

291C-141 Effect of regulations

291C-142 Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles

291C-143 Riding on bicycles

291C-144 Clinging to vehicles

291C-145 Riding on roadways and bikeways

291C-146 Carrying articles

291C-147 Lamps and other equipment on bicycles

291C-148 Driving upon sidewalk

291C-149 Bicycle racing

291C-150 Bicycle helmets

Many people may not be aware, but Hawaii has some of the strongest fourth amendment protections in the entire country.

That's the biggest problem, as I see it. People aren't aware what protections they're entitled to under the Constitution, and state or federal law.
This is something we used to learn in civics class, but that's something the schools have deemed a "waste of time".
Hence, our children are told "just do what the nice policeman says, and you won't get into trouble".
Nothing could be further from the truth.