yet another reason to not escalate straight to deadly force if ccw were allowed (Read 77023 times)

bubba808


I believe the situation is bigger 25yo argues with 44yo and 44 year old defends his wife/family, 25yo takes a swing, 44yo KOs 25yo.

suka

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Lifer

Love it.

Punk was out for awhile... Ha :thumbsup:

Haoleb

In that situation if the older guy drew a weapon and fired he would almost certainly be prosecuted. He did not try to leave the situation. For anyone who keeps a firearm in their home or plans to carry if legal carry comes to Hawaii I would highly suggest reading "In the gravest extreme" by Massad Ayoob. It is not a terribly long read but a very matter-of-fact presentation of what it means to possess that kind of responsibility. I recently bought it and read it myself and it is a good start to carrying.

Scar16

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Ya got knocked the fk out by an old guy mr. 25 yr old lol  :thumbsup: :rofl:

pastordennis

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ren

http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=246845141
another scenario.
Even in the case of Roosevelt High there is still public sentiment about shooting a mentally challenged teenager; despite him having a knife.
Imagine if you and your family of four were encountered by a mentally (not crazy anymore) teen armed with a knife.
Now parents of these mentally challenged teens are pushing for more sympathy (read imposing responsibility on the govt.) from the public.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 08:53:08 PM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

edster48

http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=246845141
another scenario.
Even in the case of Roosevelt High there is still public sentiment about shooting a mentally challenged teenager; despite him having a knife.
Imagine if you and your family of four were encountered by a mentally (not crazy anymore) teen armed with a knife.
Now parents of these mentally challenged teens are pushing for more sympathy (read imposing responsibility on the govt.) from the public.


Yeah, I read this in the paper this morning. How "cruel and unfeeling" it is for the public to actually expect to be protected from 6' tall 250 lb mentally unstable, violent individuals.
Especially when it "only" costs us 200k per bed at the youth correctional facility, per year.
My heart truly bleeds, in fact, I'm feeling a tear coming to my eye right now........... :'(
Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

ImKu

http://www.staradvertiser.com/s?action=login&f=y&id=246845141
another scenario.
Even in the case of Roosevelt High there is still public sentiment about shooting a mentally challenged teenager; despite him having a knife.
Imagine if you and your family of four were encountered by a mentally (not crazy anymore) teen armed with a knife.
Now parents of these mentally challenged teens are pushing for more sympathy (read imposing responsibility on the govt.) from the public.


Little off topic... but for this,  you need to understand both sides.  I am totally for defending yourself and your loved ones, especially if a weapon is involved,  and given the situation that was reported I agree with the actions of the officers.  With that said, the number of "mentally challenged"  is quite high (i want to say 1 in 20 or so), and if you ever worked with them and been around them for years to include their family, you would understand where the sympathy comes from.  Unfortunately,  not all these "mentally challenged" people come from loving families... Not an excuse, but some of these individuals are just angry all the time.  Not to say this is the case in this particular incident.
Here's one for thought, imagine having a child that never showed affection, only aggressiveness and anger.  I've seen it, and it's hard on the parents.   I count my own blessings as I don't know if I could handle that.  Just my .02 as to why there may be people sympathetic.
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

kong

Hindsight is 20-20.  Hence the reasonable officer/person standard knowing what a reasonable person/officer knows at the time of the incident without having hindsight.  Now deconfliction as well as doing a tactical retreat, though LEO's have no duty to retreat.

HiCarry


I believe the situation is bigger 25yo argues with 44yo and 44 year old defends his wife/family, 25yo takes a swing, 44yo KOs 25yo.
I don't think anyone was advocating that one's first move in the event you are involved in a confrontation was to use deadly force, but rather that having that option in reserve would be "nice." It was fortunate that the "older" gentleman had the skills necessary (and the physical capabilities) to handle the situation without having to resort to deadly force. But what if that wasn't the case, or that the others on the younger guy's side appeared to be more "involved" in the confrontation creating a disparity of force? What if the older guy had a heart condition that precluded him from engaging in strenuous physical activity?

The bottom line is that it is difficult to know all the circumstances of this situation, or other self defense situations and therefore difficult to discern with any certainty whether the actions the older guy took were reasonable. One of the reasons I favor "Stand your ground" laws is that in 20-20 hindsight it is pretty easy to say "you should have retreated" rather than escalated to deadly force. In the heat of the confrontation, the door or hallway behind you offered may not be seen, the demeanor of the aggressor may seem more menacing, or the mental condition may not be obvious. Therefore it seems prudent to allow the law abiding person to act to defend himself without the possibility of someone after the fact saying "..you should have..."

With all that being said, I think it is important to discuss these types of situations, both with your peers and with yourself and your family. Those discusisons, IMHO, should be open and honest, accepting of differing opinions, but without the "I know better because of my super secret, high speed training that I can't tell you about but you should believe otherwise you're just an idiot and will go to jail" type of attitudes. Personally, I am happy to learn from those with more experience, I just want to know what that experience is....

Just my opinion.....

aieahound


I believe the situation is bigger 25yo argues with 44yo and 44 year old defends his wife/family, 25yo takes a swing, 44yo KOs 25yo.

I saw the exact same thing happen when I was in High School camping at Bellows.

2 old guys, at least 50, sitting on a picnic table when a young 20-something guy came up and started going off on one of them.
Old guy not being berated stands up and young guy calls him out.
Young guy starts doing the monkey dance while old guy just circles him.
BAM ! one punch from old guy and young guy was nappy nappy.
It was awesome.

Personally though, I think if you're carrying, you have a higher duty/responsibility to try to de-escalate.
It looks like the old guy was trying to de-escalate this situation when Junior swung at thim.

Interesting question though, Could this situation have justified use of deadly force ?
Much larger and younger individual, took an unprovoked swing.

What about brandishing ?

kia_killer

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I don't think anyone was advocating that one's first move in the event you are involved in a confrontation was to use deadly force, but rather that having that option in reserve would be "nice." It was fortunate that the "older" gentleman had the skills necessary (and the physical capabilities) to handle the situation without having to resort to deadly force. But what if that wasn't the case, or that the others on the younger guy's side appeared to be more "involved" in the confrontation creating a disparity of force? What if the older guy had a heart condition that precluded him from engaging in strenuous physical activity?

The bottom line is that it is difficult to know all the circumstances of this situation, or other self defense situations and therefore difficult to discern with any certainty whether the actions the older guy took were reasonable. One of the reasons I favor "Stand your ground" laws is that in 20-20 hindsight it is pretty easy to say "you should have retreated" rather than escalated to deadly force. In the heat of the confrontation, the door or hallway behind you offered may not be seen, the demeanor of the aggressor may seem more menacing, or the mental condition may not be obvious. Therefore it seems prudent to allow the law abiding person to act to defend himself without the possibility of someone after the fact saying "..you should have..."

With all that being said, I think it is important to discuss these types of situations, both with your peers and with yourself and your family. Those discusisons, IMHO, should be open and honest, accepting of differing opinions, but without the "I know better because of my super secret, high speed training that I can't tell you about but you should believe otherwise you're just an idiot and will go to jail" type of attitudes. Personally, I am happy to learn from those with more experience, I just want to know what that experience is....

Just my opinion.....

Bingo.

HiCarry


Personally though, I think if you're carrying, you have a higher duty/responsibility to try to de-escalate.
It looks like the old guy was trying to de-escalate this situation when Junior swung at thim.

Interesting question though, Could this situation have justified use of deadly force ?
Much larger and younger individual, took an unprovoked swing.

What about brandishing ?

I agree. If you are carrying a gun and it appears (via witness statements or video..) that you did not try to deescalate the situation, you would likely find it more difficult (not impossible) to successfully use a self defense claim in this type of situation. On the other hand, it did seem like the older guy was trying to deescalate the situation.

So, as a thought exercise, what would you (not "you" specifically, but as an open question to the forum participants) have done, supposing you did not have the ability to physically fight back? What steps would you have taken to deescalate the situation and where would your "line in the sand" be if you had a legal firearm? Would you do anything different if you didn't have a firearm in the same situation?

As for brandishing, most jurisdictions don't consider pulling a firearm out in preparation to use it brandishing, but catching that charge is still a possibility.

And, how about we keep this civil and on-target without the "you're stupid and will go to jail if you don't do as I say" type of comments....

pastordennis

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Re: yet another reason to not escalate straight to deadly force if ccw were allowed
« Reply #9 on: Today at 07:38:27 AM »

    Quote

Hindsight is 20-20.  Hence the reasonable officer/person standard knowing what a reasonable person/officer knows at the time of the incident without having hindsight.  Now deconfliction as well as doing a tactical retreat, though LEO's have no duty to retreat.


Leo's have no duty to retreat and neither should law abiding citizens. That is B.S. for the GOV. to even think this.

bubba808

I don't think anyone was advocating that one's first move in the event you are involved in a confrontation was to use deadly force, but rather that having that option in reserve would be "nice." 

I agree, its wasnt the first move, but some of the moves discussed were straight towards it...I think it was along the lines of....
"say stop, yell stop, present force, use force if persisted. "
and
"Intent, opportunity, capability are met, ... use of force is justified"
and
"....Imagine drawing and holding your firearm, which you drew because you feared the guy would actually do what he just told you he would do to you, and then the aggressor tackles you and takes your gun from you. 
I'd shoot him first.  Anyone stupid enough to tackle someone holding a gun on them is also stupid enough to try and kill you over a stupid argument...
It's simple math:  he terrorizes you verbally + you have a gun + he continues to attack
Gun drawn = reasonable fear of serious injury/death = upper hand
Attacker seeing he is outgunned continues = high/stupid/angry enough to kill..."


But what if that wasn't the case, or that the others on the younger guy's side appeared to be more "involved" in the confrontation creating a disparity of force?Lets start with leaving the scene... just get your gear and family and go...shake your head, call police, whatever. 
What if the older guy had a heart condition that precluded him from engaging in strenuous physical activity? Slowly walk away gripping your chest...
the problem I have with the what if scenarios you keep presenting is I think if you only bring up and discuss the extremes of possibilities on the side justifying force instead of a series of scenarios with multiple outcomes.  If only the extreme on the side of use is discussed and the "when not to's" are ignored, then it almost seems as though the norm is justification and use of that force. 

I agree with certain parts of your statements however, i think an individuals behavior will be based on personal morals and values.  Id just like to say that IMHO, because you can justifying use of deadly force,  doesnt necessitate it.. Although it differs from my personal beliefs, i can understand use of a firearm as a LAST RESORT, but why deadly? Why not to wound to allow your escape?   


The bottom line is that it is difficult to know all the circumstances of this situation, or other self defense situations and therefore difficult to discern with any certainty whether the actions the older guy took were reasonable. One of the reasons I favor "Stand your ground" laws is that in 20-20 hindsight it is pretty easy to say "you should have retreated" rather than escalated to deadly force.I think there is a stand your ground law, and it doesnt involve a gun.  If you want to stand your ground, stand it, and you should have the same weapons at your disposal as your attacker.  (I think this comes from watching too much kung fu movies when i was a kid, lol) The alternative choice for you would be walk away. 
In the heat of the confrontation, the door or hallway behind you offered may not be seen, the demeanor of the aggressor may seem more menacing, or the mental condition may not be obvious. Therefore it seems prudent to allow the law abiding person to act to defend himself without the possibility of someone after the fact saying "..you should have..."
again with scenarios, I caution you in your use as seeming menacing or having a mental condition should not imo justify defending with presentation or use of deadly force.  Its interesting how different people percieve things differently, which is really what I think we are talking about here with these videos... I think its important to discuss as I think some of the views expressed are based on perceptions that individuals have, but differ from the the norm of society here in Hawaii.  In Hawaii people act a little different than what some may be used to, but if youre not familiar with how people act here ... and how they understand you, your perception of a threat may be incorrect, therefore your actions not justified.  I brought up in another thread a "what if "about a haka... if you see it, it might be menacing to you, but normal to the people of the island, so you yell stop da haka, show your gun, den if haka continues, bang, bang? Not good.

With all that being said, I think it is important to discuss these types of situations, both with your peers and with yourself and your family. Those discusisons, IMHO, should be open and honest, accepting of differing opinions...
HiCarry,   I especially like this part about open talking with family and friends and having a discussion and i hope a plan for these situations if/when they arise

Just my opinion.....
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 10:41:57 PM by bubba808 »

bubba808

I saw the exact same thing happen when I was in High School camping at Bellows.

2 old guys, at least 50, sitting on a picnic table when a young 20-something guy came up and started going off on one of them.
Old guy not being berated stands up and young guy calls him out.
Young guy starts doing the monkey dance while old guy just circles him.
BAM ! one punch from old guy and young guy was nappy nappy.
It was awesome.
it sounds awesome
Personally though, I think if you're carrying, you have a higher duty/responsibility to try to de-escalate.
It looks like the old guy was trying to de-escalate this situation when Junior swung at thim.

Interesting question though, Could this situation have justified use of deadly force ?
some would argue yes, justified, but I would say uncle did a great job just like that, so in my opinion, not necessary
Much larger and younger individual, took an unprovoked swing.
yup, despite this, still did great.
What about brandishing ?
brandishing?, who is she? She sounds exquisite.  LoL.  Seriously,  its the risk you take if you engage and try to "stand your ground".  Me personally, I woulda walked... if da guy like chase, den im gonna use whatever means i have at my disposal to defend myself without killing da guy.

Q

This topic is constantly being resurrected because one group of individuals feel that people should fight with their fists before deadly force is presented/applied in a self-defense situation. Lets examine the facts:

Proponents of the above video claim that this is an ideal situation as to how a situation can be handled via hand-to-hand combat. What these individuals are failing to mention is that the individual who knocked the punk ass idiot out actually is in the advantageous position in this instance, due to the following:

a) The defender is bigger than the aggressor. Because of his height advantage, and the fact that his arms are either the same size or slightly longer than the aggressor, he now has a mechanical / physiological advantage in that he can generate far more force in a a far more efficient manner, all while maintaining adequate distance to make the aggressors attacks ineffective. Let's assume the aggressor in this video is 5'8, and the defender is 5'10. What would have happened if the defender was 5'6? What would have happened if it was one of the females instead of this male? This changes the dynamic of the whole situation, and in fact changes the perception of threat to the individual, should the roles have been different, and the defender been a smaller, weaker individual compared to the aggressor.

b) The aggressor is not only drunk, but his motor skills are severely impaired. Look at how he staggers around the beach, his speech is sporadic, and how physically impaired he was to throw the punch and respond the the counter-attack of the defender. Alcohol is a depressant, meaning that it suppresses many of the physiological and neurological functions of the body/brain, thus 'impairing' them. Its easy to beat a guy up who is drunk off his ass and falling all over the place, but what would have happened if the individual had instead been using some type of stimulant like an amphetamine? People on stimulants normally aren't staggering all over the place, as these drugs actually promote the production of adrenaline and dopamine in the system, resulting in a higher threshold for pain, better command of motor skills (in terms of attack), and the ability to sustain a prolonged attack than a drunk person due to the decreased response of fatigue.

Self-defense is defined as the ability to neutralize a threat effectively and efficiently, all while reducing the possibility of bodily injury or harm to oneself or other individuals. If someone has the ability to say, 'stop or you will be shot' vs having to risk potential bodily harm by getting into a fist fight, which is more effective and efficient and reducing the risk of bodily injury to the defender, all while neutralizing the threat? And unarmed combat is only necessary because of the following: either the laws of the area do not allow one to defend themselves with weapons, or unarmed combat is taught as an alternative form of self-defense in the event that the weapon is unavailable to be used at the precise moment. In the latter case, either the threat is neutralized because the individual will not have a chance to obtain his/her weapon at all, or it allows the individual to gain the advantageous position in which to obtain his/her weapon and further neutralize the threat without further unnecessary risk to his/herself.

I will agree with bubba808 on the fact of walking away. But if there is no ability to walk away, then I am neutralizing the threat in the most effective means possible.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 12:35:14 AM by Q »

HiCarry


I agree, its wasnt the first move, but some of the moves discussed were straight towards it...I think it was along the lines of....
"say stop, yell stop, present force, use force if persisted. "
and
"Intent, opportunity, capability are met, ... use of force is justified"

And here is where perception and your personal capabilities come into play. If individuals feel they can go hand to hand and be successful, then by all means, do so. Unfortunately, many of those who advocate this method may have little actual experience with trying to physically control a drunk or drugged individual. I generally feel pretty comfortable going "hands on" but in a true life or death situation, my experience tells me controlling such a person, especially alone, is fraught with the possibility that you will be over powered. I have been involved in many, many, many "take downs" of violent individuals over the course of my career. And I can tell you that even with several well trained and capable individuals, physically subduing someone isn't always as easy as it is in the movies. Someone who knows the reality of this situation isn't likely to put himself into a situation where the "bad guy" has a good change of overpowering him before going to his gun. That would place the "good guy" at a severe tactical advantage, including then being unable to access and utilize his gun.

and
"....Imagine drawing and holding your firearm, which you drew because you feared the guy would actually do what he just told you he would do to you, and then the aggressor tackles you and takes your gun from you. 
I'd shoot him first.  Anyone stupid enough to tackle someone holding a gun on them is also stupid enough to try and kill you over a stupid argument...
It's simple math:  he terrorizes you verbally + you have a gun + he continues to attack
Gun drawn = reasonable fear of serious injury/death = upper hand
Attacker seeing he is outgunned continues = high/stupid/angry enough to kill..."

I think there are a couple of points to examine here. First, as mentioned above, many with experience in dealing with violent individuals realize that going "one on one" with a nutjob isn't necessarily a great idea (Think ICE or PCP.....) and may advocate going to the gun early. I can't say I disagree, and that in some instances, such as those with physical disabilities or kids/spouses to care for that make it impractical to leave expediently, it may be the only choice. Again, it is a personal choice, one that you may have to justify at trial and that will be judged as to "reasonableness," but a personal choice nonetheless. And there is a lot of truth in assuming that any individual that would charge you while holding a gun is also dumb/crazy/drugged/drunk enough to try and hurt or kill you over a stupid argument. It is a fallacy to think that you can reason with, or deal logically with someone so deranged.

But what if that wasn't the case, or that the others on the younger guy's side appeared to be more "involved" in the confrontation creating a disparity of force?Lets start with leaving the scene... just get your gear and family and go...shake your head, call police, whatever.

I agree. Leave the scene if you can. But what if that's not practical? What if you have family, friends, high value items that you cannot gather up without letting down your guard and placing yourself in a tactically disadvantageous position? Hard to defend yourself if you're carrying your igloo back to the car.....I do think that he should have called 911, or directed someone else to do so. Getting the police there should be a priority, but not necessarily THE priority.
 
What if the older guy had a heart condition that precluded him from engaging in strenuous physical activity? Slowly walk away gripping your chest...

I suspect that was an attempt to inject some levity, so I'll do the same, adding that you should also be gripping the butt of your firearm....

the problem I have with the what if scenarios you keep presenting is I think if you only bring up and discuss the extremes of possibilities on the side justifying force instead of a series of scenarios with multiple outcomes.  If only the extreme on the side of use is discussed and the "when not to's" are ignored, then it almost seems as though the norm is justification and use of that force. 

There are lot's of folks that may think going to the gun early is the answer. That may, or may not, be "correct" which is why I think rationally discussing these types of situations is the best way to look at many different possibilities and solutions. It is always best to have options, including avoiding the situation if possible, but also the option to use a firearm if the situation dictates. Discussing options also helps ferret out the internet warriors who's only options are to go to the gun. Stating unequivocally that you just need to walk away or to always go immediately go to the gun dismisses the great many viable options that may be available, and is an indicator that you are not open to a reasoned, rational discussion on the matter.

I agree with certain parts of your statements however, i think an individuals behavior will be based on personal morals and values.  Id just like to say that IMHO, because you can justifying use of deadly force,  doesnt necessitate it.. Although it differs from my personal beliefs, i can understand use of a firearm as a LAST RESORT, but why deadly? Why not to wound to allow your escape?   

I think your statement suggests that you are not very familiar with the realities of self defense with a firearm. If you have moral objections to using deadly force, that is your prerogative. But don't expect others to agree. I suggest that anyone considering buying a gun for protection have a very frank discussion with themselves about whether or not you are capable of using it and taking a human life. If you are not fully committed to using that firearm and willing to take a life to protect you or your family, you shouldn't have a gun for that purpose. That being said, once you make the decision to get a gun, you should endeavor to learn as much as possible about it and the subject of self defense. If you had done that, you would have realized how, and I say this without trying to insult you, ignorant you are on the subject. You do not, and I will repeat this, you do not shoot to wound!! You shoot to stop the threat, which means getting rounds into the largest area of the bad guy that will likely stop his progress. That means center mass. I'll say it again....you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, shoot to wound.

The bottom line is that it is difficult to know all the circumstances of this situation, or other self defense situations and therefore difficult to discern with any certainty whether the actions the older guy took were reasonable. One of the reasons I favor "Stand your ground" laws is that in 20-20 hindsight it is pretty easy to say "you should have retreated" rather than escalated to deadly force.I think there is a stand your ground law, and it doesnt involve a gun.  If you want to stand your ground, stand it, and you should have the same weapons at your disposal as your attacker.  (I think this comes from watching too much kung fu movies when i was a kid, lol) The alternative choice for you would be walk away. 

Stand Your Ground (SYG) laws are just that. It simply says that if you are lawfully in a place you are not mandated to retreat. It does not automatically justify a claim of self defense, nor does it somehow allow you to "shoot first and ask questions later. You can "stand your ground" with or without a firearm, but to suggest that you should then only have the same weapon as the aggressor is naive and, as you suggest, probably comes from fantasy rather than reality. And again, avoid the situation is always the better choice, IMHO, but that does not mean that circumstances may preclude that option.

In the heat of the confrontation, the door or hallway behind you offered may not be seen, the demeanor of the aggressor may seem more menacing, or the mental condition may not be obvious. Therefore it seems prudent to allow the law abiding person to act to defend himself without the possibility of someone after the fact saying "..you should have..."
again with scenarios, I caution you in your use as seeming menacing or having a mental condition should not imo justify defending with presentation or use of deadly force.  Its interesting how different people percieve things differently, which is really what I think we are talking about here with these videos... I think its important to discuss as I think some of the views expressed are based on perceptions that individuals have, but differ from the the norm of society here in Hawaii.  In Hawaii people act a little different than what some may be used to, but if youre not familiar with how people act here ... and how they understand you, your perception of a threat may be incorrect, therefore your actions not justified.  I brought up in another thread a "what if "about a haka... if you see it, it might be menacing to you, but normal to the people of the island, so you yell stop da haka, show your gun, den if haka continues, bang, bang? Not good.

But we should not burden the otherwise lawabiding citizen with the requirement that they integrate into their thought process, during the heat of a potential self defense situation, the possibility that the loud, threatening, posturing individual is "just acting up" rather than presenting a credible threat. That's like saying you should have to determine that the gun pointed at you is real and loaded before using deadly force. It simply isn't practical nor possible and to think such a requirement should be imposed is, again, IMHO, a very bad idea. As for other's not "understanding" the "local way." Again, I'm sorry. If you go to the mainland and wander into gang territory, would you suggest that you not be able to use your firearm when one of the gang members was threatening you because in reality, in that area, such threats were merely the "local way" to treat outsiders? I doubt it.

With all that being said, I think it is important to discuss these types of situations, both with your peers and with yourself and your family. Those discusisons, IMHO, should be open and honest, accepting of differing opinions...
HiCarry,   I especially like this part about open talking with family and friends and having a discussion and i hope a plan for these situations if/when they arise

A plan is always good. Discuss with your family what you expect them to do in these situations. They should call the police, stay out of the way, take shelter, or, if trained and equipped, participate in a coordinated effort to provide the family self defense.

Funtimes

Re: Shooting to "Wound"

This is basically how it is:  If you could have "wounded" the guy, then he wasn't enough of a threat to utilize deadly force (otherwise, you would have used it).  The basic thought is that if you aren't willing to stop the threat, then you haven't reached the threshold where you should be pulling the trigger anyways.  Therefore, you just shot someone to shoot them basically!
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