yet another reason to not escalate straight to deadly force if ccw were allowed (Read 77015 times)

bubba808

Follow-up:  which is the greater danger? 

1)  an active shooter allowed to continue his killing with no resistance by armed CCW civilians, or

2)  an innocent bystander being killed by that CCW holder trying to stop the active shooter?

In other words, do you think you're safer in an active shooter scenario if nobody stops the shooter before the police are called and can arrive?
how many active shooter scenarios have we had in hawaii? What Uesugi? you mean the active shooter with legal firearms that took out his co workers? Or you must mean Deedy? Where the shooter was a possibly drunk off duty out of state LEO who violated his duty by drinking and then shooting with a legal CCW? In both instances It was legal firearms and I think I It would be worse if others CCW would have intervened and exchanged more shots.

Dblnaknak

Hey bubba I am gonna ask the same question I asked the guy dblnaknak in the other thread where him and Q were going at it, there Q posted all of his experience, training and qualifications. Would you care to share your experience, training and qualifications with us?

I didn't reply because Q is full of shit. It wasn't worth my time because he tries to cyber bully his way in the forum.

I gave up when the admins edited my responses in favor of Q.

In the end everyone has their own point of view. Q's logic is one of a glorified security guard that turned in his gun at the end of his shift. Now he's stuck walking around his house is his tighty whites with his holdter clipped to the elastic waist band. Troll that.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 09:41:58 PM by Dblnaknak »

yurcarmeean

sweet vid!
bout that old school sh*t! 
confidence is knowing you can kick ass, wisdom is knowing when an ass-kicking is justified
If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.

bubba808

Aloha bubba808,

Like Hicarry astutely stated, there is no way that I can provide you with an "absolute" justification that is sure to resonate with you, so to try to do so would be foolhardy (and a waste of time) on my part.

I am content to simply say that it sounds like your mind is made up on this matter, and while I may not personally agree with everything you have said about this matter, I do share some of your concerns amd respect your point of view.   :shaka:

Mahalo and Out,
new guy
thanks bro.

kia_killer

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how many active shooter scenarios have we had in hawaii? What Uesugi? you mean the active shooter with legal firearms that took out his co workers? Or you must mean Deedy? Where the shooter was a possibly drunk off duty out of state LEO who violated his duty by drinking and then shooting with a legal CCW? In both instances It was legal firearms and I think I It would be worse if others CCW would have intervened and exchanged more shots.
What does the legality of the weapon used in an active shooter scenario have to do with anything? This is about ccw and the ability to protect yourself or others from imminent danger. I don't care if a gun is legal or not, if I'm in an active shooter scenario, I don't want to have to rely on "just rush em' ".  It's very evident that you are set in your ways, and when challenged you just dig deeper looking for ANY excuse, valid or not to justify yourself. The simple question is, would you let yourself or loved one become a victim because of your unsubstantiated fear of ccw holders? Secondly, if YOU are willing to be a victim, what makes you think everyone else should have to be too?

Q

I didn't reply because Q is full of shit. It wasn't worth my time because he tries to cyber bully his way in the forum.

I gave up when the admins edited my responses in favor of Q.

In the end everyone has their own point of view. Q's logic is one of a glorified security guard that turned in his gun at the end of his shift. Now he's stuck walking around his house is his tighty whites with his holdter clipped to the elastic waist band. Troll that.

 :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

Still waiting on those Hot-A's, cook.

While you are making my eggs, you can continue to elaborate about your top secret police agency that you work for, and how you know so much more about law enforcement or CCW even though you refuse to validate what agency that really is.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 11:27:47 PM by Q »

HiCarry

this is the most meaningful response in this whole thread. I can accept this answer, and fully understand it.  it isn't pretty, but its the truth.  thanks HiCarry

The need to protect yourself and your loved ones isn't pretty, but it is, again IMHO, a necessity.  As I have said at every single class I teach, "If your knowledge of guns and self defense comes from movies or television, you're wrong." Too many people who don't know the truth glamorize and/or romanticize these types of events, fueling fantasies of being the hero and such. But reality dictates that you look pragmatically at a potential threat and devise a workable solution. For some, the solution is to carry a gun. If you choose this path, you must be willing to take a life. Not in the sterile movie manner where a single, well placed shot to the knee incapacitates the bad guys, who conveniently drops their gun rather than attempting to shoot back at you. Nor the action/adventure model where a shotgun blasts the bad guy off his feet and 10 feet backwards while somehow magically not splattering his thoracic contents about the room. Taking a life, even justifiably, will be difficult (and in case where a gun was used, probably messy). It will cause psychological problems and most likely fuel endless debates with yourself about whether you did the right thing. Watching someone die, knowing you were the cause, will indelibly ink the event in your mind forever, and it won't be a pretty scene. But what's the alternative? Standing by, helplessly watching someone injure, rape, or kill your loved one(s)?

And, in the same vein, too many people who don't know, demonize and vilify anyone who chooses to prepare for the unthinkable.  They fail to consider the truly evil and depraved mind of someone willing to injure, rape, or kill to achieve their goals. They insulate themselves from the stark reality that there really are very bad guys (and girls) out there that don't function on the same moral and ethical playing field "we" do. There are criminals that will kill kids for their new sneakers, men that will abduct and rape women and children solely for their own twisted pleasures, and some that would think nothing of killing you for the ATM withdrawal you just made. If you want to believe that the pistol under your robe is there to hold off, yet not kill, your attacker until the good lord arrives, go ahead. It just shows again how little you are willing to open your mind and stray from your preconceived notions.

If you accept that you may need to use your gun for self defense, believing you can do so without the possibility of killing someone, you're using, at best, misguided misinformation, and at worse, magical thinking.

You continue to believe that Hawaii doesn't need CCW because it isn't a particularly violent or crime ridden place. You try to claim that armed citizens mean innocent bystanders will get shoot with an alarming frequency, but in no other state has this occurred. You fear that the otherwise good people of Hawaii will, once legally armed, be unable to control themselves and initiate gunfights over trivial matters, but again experience in other states just doesn't substantiate these fears. You bring up these canards again and again, but they are baseless and just don't happen in other states so your concerns, based on all empirical evidence are unfounded.

Again, it is not the odds of something happening to me or my loved ones that matters, it is the significance if it does....

HiCarry

how many active shooter scenarios have we had in hawaii? What Uesugi? you mean the active shooter with legal firearms that took out his co workers? Or you must mean Deedy? Where the shooter was a possibly drunk off duty out of state LEO who violated his duty by drinking and then shooting with a legal CCW? In both instances It was legal firearms and I think I It would be worse if others CCW would have intervened and exchanged more shots.
Research has shown that a large number of active shooter events are stopped by citizens, and a significant number of those were armed citizens. I won't search for all the relevant info for you, but I'll start it for you...

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/04/24/among-the-cops-and-their-instructors/

mauidog

how many active shooter scenarios have we had in hawaii? What Uesugi? you mean the active shooter with legal firearms that took out his co workers? Or you must mean Deedy? Where the shooter was a possibly drunk off duty out of state LEO who violated his duty by drinking and then shooting with a legal CCW? In both instances It was legal firearms and I think I It would be worse if others CCW would have intervened and exchanged more shots.

See, you keep saying "How many of [whatever]" has happened?  it's not enough to justify being prepared."

How many home invasions have to happen before it's enough to make you think about self defense?  About alarms in your home?  About buying a big dog?  What's that magic number of events that convinces you that maybe there is a reason to take a proactive approach and be responsible for your own protection?

How many times do people in Hawaii have to be stabbed before you think self protection is needed?

How many muggings in Waikiki (which are way under-reported to the public) are sufficient to justify being able to defend yourself?


When it happens to YOU, it only takes one!!
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

punaperson

What does the legality of the weapon used in an active shooter scenario have to do with anything? This is about ccw and the ability to protect yourself or others from imminent danger. I don't care if a gun is legal or not, if I'm in an active shooter scenario, I don't want to have to rely on "just rush em' ".  It's very evident that you are set in your ways, and when challenged you just dig deeper looking for ANY excuse, valid or not to justify yourself. The simple question is, would you let yourself or loved one become a victim because of your unsubstantiated fear of ccw holders? Secondly, if YOU are willing to be a victim, what makes you think everyone else should have to be too?
Excellent rejoinder to "bubba's" irrelevant issue. I see you making the same error I did in addressing "bubba"... asking "bubba" to be logically consistent and evaluate evidence using critical thinking skills. "bubba" presents an unending series of strawmen and red herrings and logical fallacies and outright avoidance of actually addressing the logical and factual errors "bubba" writes to the point one might be inclined to suspect "troll". If not a "troll", then just plain "sad".

2aHawaii

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Excellent rejoinder to "bubba's" irrelevant issue. I see you making the same error I did in addressing "bubba"... asking "bubba" to be logically consistent and evaluate evidence using critical thinking skills. "bubba" presents an unending series of strawmen and red herrings and logical fallacies and outright avoidance of actually addressing the logical and factual errors "bubba" writes to the point one might be inclined to suspect "troll". If not a "troll", then just plain "sad".

I agree and this thread has gone about as far as it's gonna go. For bubba it seems how much can we allow a right while constitutionally, it's how much should we limit a right.
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

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