There's another possibility as well.
Think about this first, when have you ever seen C&C move as fast as they did to make a repair at the range, or anywhere else for that matter. Hell, it's taken them over two years to remodel a bathroom at Maunalua bay. Top it off with the fact that they dropped $94,000 that they didn't have. [ remember, we're running a deficit, that means the money is borrowed, or was earmarked for something else ]

Now what makes the government move that fast?

LIABILITY.
Past administrations have neglected the range for the last 30 years. All the other parks in the system have suffered, but none has been completely ignored like KHSC. Now the chickens are coming home to roost, they need to do something.

The government hates to be held responsible for anything. What if HPD can prove the bullets came from the range? What if under the guise of an "ongoing investigation" they're keeping it quiet, so that when it does come out, they can say they've "taken steps to make the range safer"? I'm not saying that's what's going on, but the possibility exists. I would hope that none of this is the case, but there it is.

As far as "Erring on the side of safety", I should hope so. What if it was your house being hit by bullets? What if it were your kids playing in the yard, how would you feel? If you lived near the range, the first conclusion, right or wrong, would be they came from the range. I know if it was me, I'd want it to stop, immediately, if not sooner.
Remember, other than people like us, that use the range and own firearms, the general public basically falls into two categories. Either they're anti gun, or they don't give a shit as long as it's not a problem for them. We as a community, because of the scrutiny we're under, need to be handling ourselves in a manner that is beyond reproach, better and cleaner than the next guy.

We're going to have to face the fact that without extensive modifications and improvements, the 200, 300, 440yd targets are gone, the steel is certainly not coming back.
If you want to start a petition, start it for funding these improvements, we'll get a lot further with it.

Let's say we do get a fund started.  Does anyone know how we could guarantee that the funds raised would go directly to improvements at the range?  Do we set up a "Friends of Koko Head Shooting Complex" 501(c) and appoint a board of directors or should it be done some other way?  Any lawyers out there have some advice they could share?


I understand from previous threads that the monies for the parks comes from the general fund and there is no account specifically set aside to maintain any one park - am I correct in this?

Let's say we do get a fund started.  Does anyone know how we could guarantee that the funds raised would go directly to improvements at the range?  Do we set up a "Friends of Koko Head Shooting Complex" 501(c) and appoint a board of directors or should it be done some other way?  Any lawyers out there have some advice they could share?


I understand from previous threads that the monies for the parks comes from the general fund and there is no account specifically set aside to maintain any one park - am I correct in this?

edster is talking about asking the city council and mayor for improvements to KHSC to be put in the budget

you are correct in that any money comes from the general fund
one of the goals of the cleanup day was to establish a relationship with city, parks, and khsc staff
and do an adopt-a-park for KHSC
we are still working towards this goal
looks like we will have to see what the new parks director has to say first

10 square miles should be good of the property dimensions is 4 x 2.5 miles

I was thinking a circle with a radius of 3 miles, and rounding slightly down. 

Teichi. Isn't there a crazy far left and right lateral limit. I know at mcbh the far right limit is outside the range gates.

Teichi. Isn't there a crazy far left and right lateral limit. I know at mcbh the far right limit is outside the range gates.

That's one of the reasons KBay uses beach guards, bouys, issues NOTAMs, and warnings to the public prior to scheduled training. Use of some of the KBay Ranges closes down others due to the SDZ crossover.

Puuloa has berms on the right and left sides of the range mitigate the Distance W in addition to all of the other precautions. The berms are higher as you go further down range.

The ranges go into ceasefire when there are people in the SDZ. The Coast Guard is notified if there are people in the water that won't leave.

This whole problem is based on the premiss that bullets were some how landing outside of the range.  First it was claimed that the problem was ricochets.  No proof and the chance of ricochet traveling a mile and a half after climbing some 600' is a pipe dream.  Then we were accused of intentionally shooting over the top of Koko Crater.   Never proved by angle of impact, which would be close to 70 degrees down.
I know first hand that we have been shooting out to 440 yds for at least 14 years.  Im sure that this must go even longer.   All of a sudden in the year of 2013 bullets mysteriously  started falling from the sky.
Does this whole dialogue seem some what unreal!

This whole problem is based on the premiss that bullets were some how landing outside of the range.  First it was claimed that the problem was ricochets.  No proof and the chance of ricochet traveling a mile and a half after climbing some 600' is a pipe dream.  Then we were accused of intentionally shooting over the top of Koko Crater.   Never proved by angle of impact, which would be close to 70 degrees down.
I know first hand that we have been shooting out to 440 yds for at least 14 years.  Im sure that this must go even longer.   All of a sudden in the year of 2013 bullets mysteriously  started falling from the sky.
Does this whole dialogue seem some what unreal!

All it took was one person to shout "bullet" and it rained lead.
The real reason was captured in the last HK neighborhood board meeting minutes when another member outed the chair's personal vendetta.

This whole problem is based on the premiss that bullets were some how landing outside of the range.  First it was claimed that the problem was ricochets.  No proof and the chance of ricochet traveling a mile and a half after climbing some 600' is a pipe dream.  Then we were accused of intentionally shooting over the top of Koko Crater.   Never proved by angle of impact, which would be close to 70 degrees down.
I know first hand that we have been shooting out to 440 yds for at least 14 years.  Im sure that this must go even longer.   All of a sudden in the year of 2013 bullets mysteriously  started falling from the sky.
Does this whole dialogue seem some what unreal!

You sound very passionate about this issue. Might I suggest, if your not already involved, to become more involved through neighborhood board meetings, writing representatives, sending thank you emails for getting the range open again, etc, etc.

What if HPD can prove the bullets came from the range?

HPD also practices at the range.
If a round did go over, who's to say it wasn't theirs?

Just a thought   

This whole problem is based on the premiss that bullets were some how landing outside of the range.  First it was claimed that the problem was ricochets.  No proof and the chance of ricochet traveling a mile and a half after climbing some 600' is a pipe dream.  Then we were accused of intentionally shooting over the top of Koko Crater.   Never proved by angle of impact, which would be close to 70 degrees down.
I know first hand that we have been shooting out to 440 yds for at least 14 years.  Im sure that this must go even longer.   All of a sudden in the year of 2013 bullets mysteriously  started falling from the sky.
Does this whole dialogue seem some what unreal!

 

All it took was one person to shout "bullet" and it rained lead.
The real reason was captured in the last HK neighborhood board meeting minutes when another member outed the chair's personal vendetta.

Actually there are documented cases of rounds landing outside the range going back to 1992, not to mention the .50 cal. strikes that caused the restriction of that caliber.

Just to be clear, I'm with you, I've looked at the ballistics as well and I agree, the probability of a stray round hitting in that area is slim at best, the probability of a ricochet is nonexistent. The problem is, the range is the only "known" source of bullets in the area. Guesses as to what "could" have happened just don't count.

But the fact remains that as long as there is ANY chance that stray rounds might land out side the range, the government is going to err on the side of safety, as they should. For those of you that might "accidently" miss, and hit the tree at 440, make it count. We're at the point now that they will just shut down the entire range if another incident were to occur. The fact that it's never been proven that the "magic bullet" came from the range is irrelevant. It's like being sued, it doesn't matter if your innocent, you still have to defend yourself and spend money on a lawyer.
It's sad, but the old days are over. No more targets appearing overnight via midnight target supply, with a wink and a nod to RSO's. They won't stand for it any more, too much to lose. If we're ever going to get the longer yardage targets back, it's going to be in much different and more highly regulated form, and it's going to cost millions of dollars. For that we'll need the cooperation and support of the community, the parks dept., and C&C.

Build another range? Sure, I'm all for it! I'd love to see a 1000yd public range with facilities to encompass all the needs of the entire community, action shooters, skeet, etc.
Again, the support of whatever community this facility is located in, the parks dept., C&C, will be needed. Oh! Plus 10's of millions to buy the land and build it. Good luck getting that done in this political climate, in anything under 20 years.

We need to take advantage of the currently supportive Mayor and city administration and do our best to get them to approve funding for improvements to KHSC.

ag land in central Oahu is really cheap

The land behind my Mililani house is ag and was quaoted $30,000 for about 5 acres.
and it a flat ridge

ag land in central Oahu is really cheap

The land behind my Mililani house is ag and was quaoted $30,000 for about 5 acres.
and it a flat ridge

Lessee..... 10 square miles is 6400 acres.  That's $19.2 million in land.  I'm in for $10K.  Find 19,199 more people to make matching donations and we can get started!

Lessee..... 10 square miles is 6400 acres.  That's $19.2 million in land.  I'm in for $10K.  Find 19,199 more people to make matching donations and we can get started!

Even if you cut it in half, 5 square miles, and bring it down to a "reasonable"  $9.6 million, you have to figure in zoning change fees, access roads, cost to get water and electricity to the location, permit fees, etc, etc, etc. Not to mention you haven't even started construction yet!

I need a drink Tom. 

I need a drink Tom. 

That, I can oblige!!!!!

That, I can oblige!!!!!

Can I join you guys?
Seems folks forget that there was a life before Hawaii Kai.
We were there first?

"On December 29, 1928 an agreement was struck between the Estate of Bernice Pauahi Bishop and the City and County of Honolulu, Territory of Hawaii, for the sum of $1.00, the property which is now known as the Koko Head Regional Park be sold to the City and County of Honolulu : "That it will and they shall use the conveyed premises for purposes of public parks and/or rights of way, and for no other purposes".
Time warp to 1950. The National Guard had already developed Kahauloa Crater into a shooting range training facility. The city discovered that they owned the crater property and proceeded to regain the rights to the range. Bill Niau, discharged from 222nd Military Police in Guam, was back home in Hawaii looking for a job. Bill applied for a groundskeeper position with the City and County of Honolulu and discovered the position required a firearms background. A match made in heaven, Bill Niau became resident caretaker and range master of The Koko Head Shooting Complex. When Bill took over the responsibilities of the range in 1950, the rifle range was in its current position, the pistol range was on the Hanauma Bay side of the crater and somewhere within the crater walls was a skeet range. Everyone remembers Bill with his Khaki uniform. Bill retired on December 18, 1986 with 36 years of service."

This is a short excerpt from a web site on Koko Head range history I found with google

Can I join you guys?
Seems folks forget that there was a life before Hawaii Kai.
We were there first?

Couldn't open your attachment, hey if you've got ideas, I'm sure everyone would love to hear them! 

Can I join you guys?
Seems folks forget that there was a life before Hawaii Kai.
We were there first?

"On December 29, 1928 an agreement was struck between the Estate of Bernice Pauahi Bishop and the City and County of Honolulu, Territory of Hawaii, for the sum of $1.00, the property which is now known as the Koko Head Regional Park be sold to the City and County of Honolulu : "That it will and they shall use the conveyed premises for purposes of public parks and/or rights of way, and for no other purposes".
Time warp to 1950. The National Guard had already developed Kahauloa Crater into a shooting range training facility. The city discovered that they owned the crater property and proceeded to regain the rights to the range. Bill Niau, discharged from 222nd Military Police in Guam, was back home in Hawaii looking for a job. Bill applied for a groundskeeper position with the City and County of Honolulu and discovered the position required a firearms background. A match made in heaven, Bill Niau became resident caretaker and range master of The Koko Head Shooting Complex. When Bill took over the responsibilities of the range in 1950, the rifle range was in its current position, the pistol range was on the Hanauma Bay side of the crater and somewhere within the crater walls was a skeet range. Everyone remembers Bill with his Khaki uniform. Bill retired on December 18, 1986 with 36 years of service."

This is a short excerpt from a web site on Koko Head range history I found with google

Good info, thanks for history lesson!! 

When I was in VA, I always laughed at those that complained about jet noise when they bought a  house next to a airport and a Air Force base.
Then in GA, it was people complaining about train noise when their house was a 1/4 mile form the tracks.... they were there first and you knew what and where you bought.

Your info also solves the mystery of bullets being found at Hanauma Bay, never knew this part.

.

"Who was there first" doesn't really do us much good.  Shooting ranges, airports, chicken farms, landfills, industrial complexes and cattle ranges all over the country are losing challenges to encroachment by suburbia. 

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