Glock accurate 9mm ammo? (Read 10564 times)

oldfart

Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« on: October 30, 2014, 07:23:37 AM »
I have a friend who is having a little trouble qualifying with a g17.
I will be giving him some markmanship coaching. But I also want to give him the ammo that will increase his odds of success.
So since I don't own a glock yet, I am asking you gents for observations and experiences on the most accurate ammo that you have shot in your 9mm glock.
The ammo could be factory or reloaded...whatever works. Try to be specific.
9mm only

Commence firing |==>>
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mic808

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 09:23:14 AM »
is it for competition dave? for me i like that xtreme 124 gr PHP you introduced to me.

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 10:27:29 AM »
is it for competition dave? for me i like that xtreme 124 gr PHP you introduced to me.
...
Pm sent
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Surf

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 11:10:10 AM »
What is he qualifying for / standards / restrictions?

Glocks and their polygonal hammer forged barrels are excellent.  Issues may come in tolerance variances of barrel lock up, but generally this often comes in the form of high or low, mostly high impacts, but accuracy remains pretty good.  I prefer a barrel that lies within .003-.006.  Of course the lower the better, beyond that I try to pass on that particular pistol. 

For ammo, if it is a qual of some type for a professional organization they generally have an ammo type standard.  I find that quality practice FMJ to Duty HP type rounds from major manufacturers to do well in a standard Glock barrel.   
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 11:15:25 AM by Surf »

robtmc

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 12:16:34 PM »
Issues may come in tolerance variances of barrel lock up, but generally this often comes in the form of high or low, mostly high impacts, but accuracy remains pretty good.  I prefer a barrel that lies within .003-.006. Of course the lower the better, beyond that I try to pass on that particular pistol. 
What are you describing here, the height of the barrel hood below the frame? 

This dimension would be with 9mm variants only I assume, since that is what ya'll are talking about?

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 12:43:09 PM »
What is he qualifying for / standards / restrictions?

Glocks and their polygonal hammer forged barrels are excellent.  Issues may come in tolerance variances of barrel lock up, but generally this often comes in the form of high or low, mostly high impacts, but accuracy remains pretty good.  I prefer a barrel that lies within .003-.006.  Of course the lower the better, beyond that I try to pass on that particular pistol. 

For ammo, if it is a qual of some type for a professional organization they generally have an ammo type standard.  I find that quality practice FMJ to Duty HP type rounds from major manufacturers to do well in a standard Glock barrel.   
...
Choice of ammo is pretty lenient.
But if you say ww is better than fed fmj or blazer fmj, then that is useful info.
Remember Outlaw Josey Wales?
"A man has gotta have an edge"
I'm just trying to give him an edge.
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mauidog

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2014, 12:51:21 PM »
Glock recommends 124GR ammo over 115GR for proper operation of the slide when fired.

That's what they told me when I called about a brass ejection issue.

An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Inspector

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2014, 07:05:56 PM »
I found some ammo which i purchased back in the early 90's worked very well in my Glock. It shoots about as accurate as my Glock can be. Unfortunately, it is no longer imported here. It is 124 gr FMJ Chinese military ammo. I don't have a chrono but from feel the ammo is pretty hot but not marked +P. I purchased a lot of it and I still have a small cache of it. I would be willing to donate a box or two to the cause if you want to test it out and then try and reproduce some reloads for him. Also, I reload 124 gr Montana Gold JHP and I find they are almost as accurate as the military ammo I have. I prefer the JHP as they cut a cleaner hole in the target. I can donate some bullets to the cause if this will help.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2014, 07:23:08 PM »
I found some ammo which i purchased back in the early 90's worked very well in my Glock. It shoots about as accurate as my Glock can be. Unfortunately, it is no longer imported here. It is 124 gr FMJ Chinese military ammo. I don't have a chrono but from feel the ammo is pretty hot but not marked +P. I purchased a lot of it and I still have a small cache of it. I would be willing to donate a box or two to the cause if you want to test it out and then try and reproduce some reloads for him. Also, I reload 124 gr Montana Gold JHP and I find they are almost as accurate as the military ammo I have. I prefer the JHP as they cut a cleaner hole in the target. I can donate some bullets to the cause if this will help.
....
Wow, that is a generous offer. Thank you.
I seem to detect a pattern here with multiple recommendations of 124 gr. Ammo.
In my workshop, I have various 124 grain hollow points, so I think I'll try those out in his pistol.
The gun shop that he frequents sold him 147 and115 gr range ammo.
Maybe the 124's will give him an edge.
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Inspector

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2014, 07:57:43 PM »
My G17 shoots 115 gr and 147 gr pretty well. Just to a different point of aim. But the most accurate have been the 124 gr. I would expect a hotter load will be the most accurate as it is in my gun. I also load a Sierra 125 gr FMJ with 4.2 gr and 4.4 of Titegroup. This load shoots well out of my Glock and Sig.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2014, 08:15:43 PM »
My G17 shoots 115 gr and 147 gr pretty well. Just to a different point of aim. But the most accurate have been the 124 gr. I would expect a hotter load will be the most accurate as it is in my gun. I also load a Sierra 125 gr FMJ with 4.2 gr and 4.4 of Titegroup. This load shoots well out of my Glock and Sig.
...
Approximately how much difference in point of impact did you observe?
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Inspector

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2014, 08:24:43 PM »
It was quite some time ago but if my memory serves me correctly it was not a lot. Maybe 2 or 3 inches give or take off one way or the other at 25 yds. I have been shooting only 124 gr and 125 gr for at least 10 or 12 years exclusively. Sorry I can't be more exact.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2014, 08:30:17 PM »
It was quite some time ago but if my memory serves me correctly it was not a lot. Maybe 2 or 3 inches give or take off one way or the other at 25 yds. I have been shooting only 124 gr and 125 gr for at least 10 or 12 years exclusively. Sorry I can't be more exact.
...
That sounds about right.
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hepcat96821

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2014, 09:48:56 AM »
My glock 17 seemed to be more accurate with 124 grain loads.  147 grain ammo wasnt as accurate as the 124s, but still better then 115s.  These results were confirmed with fmj , and hollow points from different manufacturers, as well as my own reloads. 

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2014, 06:13:46 AM »
Yesterday I had a brief range session with my friend's g17 gen4 straight out of the box.
I shot:
 blazer 115 ball
Rem 147 mc
My 124 gr hap match load
...
The 115 and 147 did have a slightly different poi. But only about 1 or 2 inch diff.
The 124 match shot to the the same place as the others.
All the clusters were around 11 o'clock about 5 inches from poa.
Cluster sizes were all 4 or 5 inches at 25 yds regardless if benched or standing.
I'm sure if I owned the pistol I could do better, but one thing I noticed is that for myself and other people too, glocks seem to shoot to the left.
That is a common pattern I see.
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mauidog

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2014, 07:15:18 AM »
Yesterday I had a brief range session with my friend's g17 gen4 straight out of the box.
I shot:
 blazer 115 ball
Rem 147 mc
My 124 gr hap match load
...
The 115 and 147 did have a slightly different poi. But only about 1 or 2 inch diff.
The 124 match shot to the the same place as the others.
All the clusters were around 11 o'clock about 5 inches from poa.
Cluster sizes were all 4 or 5 inches at 25 yds regardless if benched or standing.
I'm sure if I owned the pistol I could do better, but one thing I noticed is that for myself and other people too, glocks seem to shoot to the left.
That is a common pattern I see.

The shooting left thing is common with right handed shooters.  You're pushing the gun left with the trigger finger.  Something about the grip angle and shape that causes you to push left as the trigger comes back.  If you dry fire one and watch the sights all the way through, you'll see the front of the gun move left at the end.

The remedy is to (1) position the finger just a little more past the trigger toward the first joint on the index finger, and (2) push against the left side of the frame very firmly with the support hand (left) thumb.  I've heard it said Glocks need you to hold the left hand against the frame as firmly as you can to give it less chance of the trigger finger pushing the muzzle left.

I've had the same issue with all my Glocks until I learned to counter it.  Learning to steady the gun more firmly helps with all pistols, not just Glocks.  It helps keep the muzzle lower, too, for quicker followups.

Hope that helps.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

oldfart

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2014, 08:22:54 AM »
The shooting left thing is common with right handed shooters.  You're pushing the gun left with the trigger finger.  Something about the grip angle and shape that causes you to push left as the trigger comes back.  If you dry fire one and watch the sights all the way through, you'll see the front of the gun move left at the end.

The remedy is to (1) position the finger just a little more past the trigger toward the first joint on the index finger, and (2) push against the left side of the frame very firmly with the support hand (left) thumb.  I've heard it said Glocks need you to hold the left hand against the frame as firmly as you can to give it less chance of the trigger finger pushing the muzzle left.

I've had the same issue with all my Glocks until I learned to counter it.  Learning to steady the gun more firmly helps with all pistols, not just Glocks.  It helps keep the muzzle lower, too, for quicker followups.

Hope that helps.
==============
Thanks....I kinda figured it was something like that.
But here's the problem, I've been shooting my 1911's for about 34 years now.
I am unlikely to change the way I hold a pistol now.
I guess that is why I prefer adjustable sights. It would only take a couple clicks to correct the windage from 10 or 11 oclock
When dry firing it, I did not notice a left movement in this gun. But I tried a few stock g34 and those triggers had so much overtravel it was like an earthquake went off in my hand.
Surprising, because isn't that supposed to be a "target" pistol? I suppose somebody has an aftermarket cure for glock trigger overtravel now.

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Surf

Re: Glock accurate 9mm ammo?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2014, 01:56:39 PM »
What are you describing here, the height of the barrel hood below the frame? 

This dimension would be with 9mm variants only I assume, since that is what ya'll are talking about?
Glocks have 3 lock up points but fitment of say an aftermarket barrel is primarily around the barrel hood to slide fit and the bottom locking lug.  With the weapon assembled in battery I will check play by pressing down on the barrel hood, you might note a big difference between certain models in similar caliber especially.  I will also check tolerance of barrel slide fitment by taking the slide off the frame and removing the recoil spring assembly then checking the tolerance or play between the hood and slide.  If you custom fit say a Barsto barrel you can get rid of all of this play depending on what type of reliability is acceptable for your particular shooting needs, be it defensive or target.

...
Choice of ammo is pretty lenient.
But if you say ww is better than fed fmj or blazer fmj, then that is useful info.
Remember Outlaw Josey Wales?
"A man has gotta have an edge"
I'm just trying to give him an edge.
I should note and I know you know this, that not all ammo is created equally and different weapons might like different ammo, even barrel to barrel dependent in some.  So like anything else, the Glock likes different ammo.  I find too find that 124 gr produces the best results and generally quality defensive HP ammo, namely speer GD does very well from my experience but you are also trading off for a bit more felt recoil so that might affect your friend.  I asked what are the qual standards, because most quals for employment are basically minute of silhouette at not too far of distances, so perhaps less felt recoil might be better than squeezing out a bit more pure ammo related accuracy.

Glock recommends 124GR ammo over 115GR for proper operation of the slide when fired.

That's what they told me when I called about a brass ejection issue.
This is and is not always the case, but was the vanilla answer given.  Discussed a bit more in the other Glock thread in this sub-forum.


I'm sure if I owned the pistol I could do better, but one thing I noticed is that for myself and other people too, glocks seem to shoot to the left.
That is a common pattern I see.
This is almost 100% related to the shooter and not the weapon or ammo.  Low and left is just as common in a right hander.  The same holds true for a lefty only going in the opposite direction.  I don't really like to quote myself, but re-typing the following is too much to do.  Below is my explanation in another forum.

Quote from: Surf;254206
I will first comment, as I mention in the video, that one size does not fit everyone across the board.  Many have mentioned the myriad of factors that can play a role in trigger manipulation which I also discuss in the video.  I will note that I too have trigger pull variations which are weapon, trigger type, trigger weight, hand fitment and trigger reach dependent.   So a heavy revolver trigger, a DA/SA trigger and say a 1911 trigger have variations of pulls that allow me to manipulate the trigger with as little disruption to the sights as possible, but ideally I prefer to be about 2/3 to 3/4 towards the tip of the finger.

Some shooters do indeed shoot well with the trigger making contact in the first joint, but the key to the manipulation is not making contact on the frame of the weapon with the sides of the trigger finger.  Having an appropriate gap between the trigger finger and the frame of the weapon is overwhelmingly the key to success for most shooters.  Of course there are always exceptions, but generally this holds true.  The exceptions are often times shooters who use a counter torque or counter pressure technique with the support hand and do it very well.  Many don't even understand that they are doing it.  Which leads into the question below on grip.....

Sorry about the delay, but it took some time here and there to punch this out.  It is hard to express this in written word.  Video is so much easier, but I will give it a go here.

Setting up the Grip -
For the most part I have often taken techniques learned on the rifle with precision long range shooting and adopted them into other weapons such as the carbine and pistol.  As far as the grip goes, as soon as I adopted the modern Iso, I was never a fan of keeping the traditional alignment of the pistol's muzzle being in line with the forearm of the shooting hand.  This is partially because I have short fingers and need to break that alignment to get a good trigger manipulation, but it also made less sense to me to maintain bone alignment as I will get into shortly.  This straight alignment was IMO adopted from the "Weaver" and more from the "Chapman" and the "push / pull" era and recoil management and that was OK for then.  Once the move towards the modern ISO with a more triangulation of the body taking place, that bone alignment was not a good thing as it created an incorrect or un-natural "point of aim".  That incorrect "point of aim" forced most shooters to utilize muscular tension to torque the gun in alignment with our eyes to force that correct "point of aim".

Now if we take the concept of the long gun where we "get behind" the weapon and create that "natural point of aim" where we move the body in a manner that allows us not to have to use muscular tension to create and maintain a correct or natural "point of aim", we should IMO apply that to a pistol.  If a shooter gets into a good modern ISO, hold the pistol in both hands and while being very relaxed let both arms hang at extension and exhale.  I stress that you should be very relaxed while doing this with no muscle tension.  The muzzle will be almost center line of your body, in front of your dominant eye and pointed downward just in front of your feet.  From this position look through your sights with your dominant eye.  Do you have a correct sight alignment from this relaxed muzzle down position?  If you do not have a correct sight alignment, adjust the grip on the pistol until you do have a correct sight alignment.  Do not force a correct alignment with muscle tension or forcing the weapon into a correct sight alignment.  When you have a correct or "natural" sight alignment that does not require any muscle tension to maintain, close your eyes and with a very relaxed movement leaving your arms extended, lift your weapon up to where your line of sight would be and then open your eyes.  Did you maintain the sight picture?  If yes, close your eyes take a few deep breaths and open your eyes.  Did your sight alignment remain, or did it move?  If you have a problem with the sight picture, repeat the process until you find a relaxed and natural "point of aim".

Many might teach to use "counter torque" or "counter pressure" to create or maintain that correct alignment of the muzzle, however it is truly my belief that a "natural point of aim" should be established as it is less likely that your muzzle orientation and sight alignment will be negatively impacted during the firing process.  IMO the muscular or skeletal tension with counter torque or counter pressure will still be more counter productive than a true natural point of aim.  Of course some shooters are so good with counter torque or counter pressure that their results are not necessarily the norm, or what others should strive towards, or could ever achieve.

Maintaining a Neutral grip -
It is critical to maintain a neutral grip throughout the trigger pull process.  As mentioned in the video, influence from the support hand thumb can be a factor but the biggest issue, especially with the Glock is the amount of pressure that is placed on the grip from front to rear (frontstrap to backstrap) of the weapon when firing the weapon.  Generally a left or right only push is trigger finger.  When the shots are low it is usually in relation to the grip, or a pre-ignition push (flinch), or a combination of both.  Low left or low right is often a combination of trigger finger and grip / pre-ignition push.  With the Modern Iso, again IMO, we do want a 360* contact on the grip with no gaps, but what we DO NOT want is front to rear grip pressure, but rather a side to side pressure.  Sure we tend to call this "milking" the grip but it goes deeper than that. 

Humans are basically apes with opposing thumbs.  When we close the hand to grip an object all of the fingers of the hand start to move.  It is a sympathetic response.  It is actually more difficult to move your trigger finger without the rest of your hand moving.  If you are reading this, you are probably trying it out.  If not try it out.  You don't need to have anything in your hand.  With your shooting hand make a letter "C" or mimic holding a soda or beer can but keep your fingers and hand relaxed.  Now move your trigger finger, or attempt to pick up an object like a soda can with your trigger finger and thumb only.  If you are a trained shooter or concentrate specifically, your hand will stay more steady, but you can see how easily your other fingers want to close, especially the two smaller fingers.  This is a sympathetic response which is programmed for gripping an object.  For many shooters as they pull trigger and the grip closes, the pinkie and ring finger apply pressure on the bottom of the frontstrap of the pistol and causes the muzzle to dip.  So we really need to be able to move our trigger finger without closing our grip especially our pinkie and ring finger and we need to remember that as the explosion happens in our hand.  A lot of people have issues in maintaining that neutral grip and not squeezing or applying forces on the grip of the weapon that have a negative impact.   

Locking the Grip -
With a modern ISO and the grip I prefer to use, I use the support hands fingers as the "lock" to create a vise like action in the heels of my hand as I press the weapon towards extension.  Think of Bob Vogel's grip and how he locks in his support hands pointer finger and "grinds" into the grip.  My fingers are too short for my support hands pointer finger to lock onto the trigger guard as he does, but the "lock" with the support hands fingers is critical as we "grind" or press into the grip during extension causing palm swell area of the hands to press into the grip panels and creating a side to side pressure.  We should make first contact with our support hands index finger under the trigger guard of the pistol, lock the fingers, then back fill the grip panel with our palm swell as we extend.  This will help the "lock" with the fingers.  Many will incorrectly establish the palm swell then wrap the fingers.

We should avoid too much rear pressure on the backstrap from the shooting hands thumb.  Shooters often clench down on the weapon too hard when firing which contributes to the "milking" effect.  I will often demonstrate that I am not applying front to rear pressure on the pistols grip by firing a string of shots with my normal grip.  I will then take the thumb of my firing hand and rotate it to the same side of the pistol as my trigger finger and again fire another string of shots with the same control on the weapon as when the thumb is wrapped.  This visual demonstration is very effective for showing how I do not want to apply front to rear pressure on the grip and the shooting hands thumb is there to stabilize and not to induce a "crush" from front to rear as that causes the shooter to induce muzzle dip or the "milking" effect.

I have often taken heat for my concepts, beliefs and even for "sharing" too much information for free that is generally reserved for those selling video's or who teach paid courses.  I am glad to see much of those early concepts finally coming around more mainstream from other trainers and great shooters out there.  Many are coming up with some interesting terminology for concepts in regards to mechanics / science of shooting / kinestheics, blah, blah, blah, that are supposedly "cutting edge" right now.  It is too bad however, that many of my follow up video's that I mention in the trigger video didn't actually make it to final edit and make it online for free.   :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 08:53:48 AM by Surf »