Given the current economic issues, upcoming elections, and general unrest in our country.   When (and if) do you expect to see these types of riots/demonstrations occur and are you prepared? If so, how?  How do you think our local LEO would/could handle an uprising of this level?  Does your personal defense plan take into account for acts such as this and are you ready to "stretch" the law when it comes down to your family?

  This is not a tin-foil hat post. Purely theoretical.  The devil is in the details, so please be thorough!

When do I expect European craziness?  Sooner than later; things are just as bad or worse here than they are in some of those European countries.  It depends on when Washington realizes that they've got to curb some spending, I think.  If you turn on the tv and see something about austerity measures, it's too late already.  Take away peoples' gub-mint checks, and riots will shortly follow.  Then again, it could happen for no apparent reason, or at least a pretty dumb reason, like it did in London.  I was talking to a guy at work today who thought those sorts of riots wouldn't/couldn't happen here, which is simply absurd.  Thinking Americans won't do the same stupid stuff as Europeans simply because we're Americans and they're not doesn't even begin to make logical sense, and I won't bother underlining that point. 

I am completely unprepared.  I need to get my poop in a group before the SHTF, because obviously if you wait until the monkey is backing up to the box fan, it's already too late.  I have two reliable pistols, but not enough ammunition to make them really useful.  I have a pretty extensive first-aid kit in my backpack, if I need it.  Things I need: a reliable semi-automatic rifle like an M1 or AR; ammunition for rifle and pistols; a water purifier that can make potable water out of the toilet or sea water; and a solid month of MRE's.  10-15 gallons of gasoline in jerry cans would be nice, because of course the balloon's not going to go up until you're down to an eighth of a tank, hoping you can squeeze it out until you get back over to Costco tomorrow.  I think I could ride out just about any sort of unrest if I get those items.  I figure after a month of insanity on the island, we'll either all be under martial law with order restored, or there'll be plenty of resupply opportunities in unoccupied houses.  Am I saying I'd resort to looting?  You bet your ass I am.  But IMHO (soapbox warning!) there's a difference between legitimate and illegitimate looting.  Illegitimate looting is what you saw in New Orleans.  What do you need a TV or case of beer for during a catastrophe??  What I mean by looting is wading into the Wal-Mart for camping supplies, or food, etc.  The key is that you're taking only what you need to survive.  The other key difference is that when all was said and done, I'd go back down to those businesses or homes and make a good-faith effort to either return what I took or compensate them for it.  [/soapbox]

As far as police response goes, if the London PD can't get things under control, HPD is up the proverbial creek without a paddle.  I don't mean that as a knock against the skill or dedication of HPD, I'm just saying that London is a much larger, violence-prone city than Honolulu, and based on that, I would expect that their police force is more experienced with responding to that sort of thing.  As evidenced by the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan, even with overwhelming force, it's almost impossible to get people to straighten up and fly right if they're determined to act like turds.

Considering my total dearth of supplies, I hesitate to even claim that I have a "plan"; but what I've acquired so far is intended for exactly this type of worst-case scenario.  Whether it's a tsunami, general rioting, or whatever, your individual needs are the same: food, water, shelter, and a means to defend them.  I would stretch the law to extent necessary to ensure me and my family's survival, period.  I've got one baby girl and a wife to consider, so concerns about my possible incarceration at some point in the future takes a big back seat to their immediate survival.  At least I hope I'd have the cajones to live up to that standard!

When do I expect them?  It's sorta the nature of riots that they defy expectations. 

Am I prepared?  Better than most, not as well as some of you.  I have a decent arsenal that worked pretty well for the US in the 2nd world war and a good stash of ammo.  I have a wife who can shoot.  I can store enough water for a week, have canned food for roughly the same amount of time, and ample propane to cook what is already in the freezer.  I have batteries for my flashlights and radio.  I am a little bit lean on first aid supplies, so I'll have to make sure that injuries tend to be inflicted by, instead of on, us. 

it won,t despite many of our I am Legend fantasies.

When do I expect European craziness?  Sooner than later; things are just as bad or worse here than they are in some of those European countries.  It depends on when Washington realizes that they've got to curb some spending, I think.  If you turn on the tv and see something about austerity measures, it's too late already.  Take away peoples' gub-mint checks, and riots will shortly follow.  Then again, it could happen for no apparent reason, or at least a pretty dumb reason, like it did in London.  I was talking to a guy at work today who thought those sorts of riots wouldn't/couldn't happen here, which is simply absurd.  Thinking Americans won't do the same stupid stuff as Europeans simply because we're Americans and they're not doesn't even begin to make logical sense, and I won't bother underlining that point. 

I am completely unprepared.  I need to get my poop in a group before the SHTF, because obviously if you wait until the monkey is backing up to the box fan, it's already too late.  I have two reliable pistols, but not enough ammunition to make them really useful.  I have a pretty extensive first-aid kit in my backpack, if I need it.  Things I need: a reliable semi-automatic rifle like an M1 or AR; ammunition for rifle and pistols; a water purifier that can make potable water out of the toilet or sea water; and a solid month of MRE's.  10-15 gallons of gasoline in jerry cans would be nice, because of course the balloon's not going to go up until you're down to an eighth of a tank, hoping you can squeeze it out until you get back over to Costco tomorrow.  I think I could ride out just about any sort of unrest if I get those items.  I figure after a month of insanity on the island, we'll either all be under martial law with order restored, or there'll be plenty of resupply opportunities in unoccupied houses.  Am I saying I'd resort to looting?  You bet your ass I am.  But IMHO (soapbox warning!) there's a difference between legitimate and illegitimate looting.  Illegitimate looting is what you saw in New Orleans.  What do you need a TV or case of beer for during a catastrophe??  What I mean by looting is wading into the Wal-Mart for camping supplies, or food, etc.  The key is that you're taking only what you need to survive.  The other key difference is that when all was said and done, I'd go back down to those businesses or homes and make a good-faith effort to either return what I took or compensate them for it.  [/soapbox]

As far as police response goes, if the London PD can't get things under control, HPD is up the proverbial creek without a paddle.  I don't mean that as a knock against the skill or dedication of HPD, I'm just saying that London is a much larger, violence-prone city than Honolulu, and based on that, I would expect that their police force is more experienced with responding to that sort of thing.  As evidenced by the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan, even with overwhelming force, it's almost impossible to get people to straighten up and fly right if they're determined to act like turds.

Considering my total dearth of supplies, I hesitate to even claim that I have a "plan"; but what I've acquired so far is intended for exactly this type of worst-case scenario.  Whether it's a tsunami, general rioting, or whatever, your individual needs are the same: food, water, shelter, and a means to defend them.  I would stretch the law to extent necessary to ensure me and my family's survival, period.  I've got one baby girl and a wife to consider, so concerns about my possible incarceration at some point in the future takes a big back seat to their immediate survival.  At least I hope I'd have the cajones to live up to that standard!

Thanks for the interesting and HONEST response. Most will look at their situation and realize they are not prepared for 2-3 days worth of lawlessness, much less any emergency. The last time a Tsunami was supposed to hit here, we took a trip down to the stores to check out the sheep, they were buying toilet paper, paper towels, and steak. The rice isles were stocked, the can goods were untouched, and the fresh veggies were full.

 I did however witness your ability to shoot and network with like-minded folks. I think we can pick these people out quickly. The crap going on in the UK is not for a worthy cause. They are stealing and looting, plain and simple. The neat thing is, they are taking things I am not concerned with and do not influence what I would grab if given the chance.

The first 2a meet and greet started in my garage. This ultimately led to the Hawaii Defense Foundation (thanks FT!). I would really like to get a bunch of folks together on a monthly basis or more often to talk and share ideas about surviving the unthinkable, whether it be a natural or economic disaster; we have to be ready.  This would be about discussing bug out plans, water sterilization techniques, solar ovens, alternative food sources, teaching friends how to reload, and ways to prepare ourselves economically.

I have lived in the wild, by myself, and learned one thing: The prospect for survival is increased with like minded individuals with a common goal, staying alive at all costs.

Some may call it paranoia, I call it preparedness.

thoughts?

I'll love to attend. lol.

You may be around for another little under a year, but I was there for the mancave meetings, dammit. I'll be going there for this too. lol.

I remember the Watts Riots in California it was triggered by the Rodney King incident. I think California was part of the US at the time. The korean store owners were shooting at looters from their store roof tops. The national guard was called out for that event. I think that most looters would think twice about trying to assault an armed defender.

Better keep your mags fully loaded.

I absolutely agree that being part of a cohesive group is to your benefit, and I'm down to get out of the house once a month for a get-together.  As far as the dividing line between preparedness and paranoia, it's pretty tough to call.  If I spend six months' salary to buy a rifle, a pallet of MRE's, and ammunition, you might say that's prepared, or you might call it paranoid.  On the other hand, if I was uber-wealthy, I might spent 3% of one month's paycheck to stock a warehouse full of food, staffed with medical personnel, private security, and a lead-lined, underground bunker.  Which one of us is prepared, and which one is paranoid?  For me, the line comes down to at what point does preparing for a disaster start to negatively impact your ability to live your life?  If you can't go outside for fear of something bad happening, you're in paranoia country.  On the other hand, being "obsessed" with it doesn't necessarily make you paranoid.  If preparing is your hobby, more power to you.  That's the weird thing about people, they won't think anything of a guy who spends ~6hrs a day, two days a week at the golf course, and drops a cool grand on a new set of irons; but if you spend six hours on a Sunday reloading ammo and drop a cool grand because you found a sweet deal on reloading components, they start to think you're nuts.  The time and money you've got sunk into one hobby is the exact same as the next guy's, but I guess one is more socially acceptable than the other. 

I'd love to get together and discuss all this kind of stuff.  I'm not going to be converting my backyard pool to a self-sufficient food source, but I do need to get a store of basic supplies laid in.  I found a manual put out by the Mormons the other day that made some pretty good points.  I've always thought it would be a good idea to have a bunch of MRE's around, but that manual pointed out that you can lay in a supply of food for an equal amount of time more easily by buying things like rice, grain, etc.  Then it has the added benefit of being self-replenishing, because once you establish your 1 month, or 1 year, or whatever supply of food, you just live off of it, and replenish it with the weekly shopping trip.  That way you know how to prepare the food, you're used to the diet, and at any given moment you've got a full supply, plus or minus a week's worth of groceries.

Incidentally, the topic of self-reliance is something I learned growing up on the farm, and I think the most useful two things you could have in a bad situation is a good dose of common sense, and the ability to use your hands for something other than glove racks.

Given the Bush and Obama doctrines on indefinite detention, extraordinary rendition and torture of anyone, including US citizens, I'd say it's probably best to stay the heck away from Wal-Mart or anywhere else that's getting ransacked. This place is so militarized that most likely there would be a few hours of chaos and then the Strykers would roll in, but I doubt the fire crews would be able to handle. Depending on what happens to the global economy before October APEC might give us an interesting experience. If there are enough people here who lose hope of ever being able to find a job and support their families then for sure they will be more than happy to give the rich international businessmen a hard time, especially when traffic becomes a nightmare. All it takes is for one cop to get out of hand and the floodgates pop wide open, but it sounds like relations with the police in those run-down British neighborhoods had been simmering for years. 

As far as the rest of the US goes they already have curfews for the flash mob robberies in Chicago where they pretty much invented chaos-by-Twitter. There are long histories of racial tensions with LEO's in most of the major cities and so many people have given up looking for work all over the country that it could start anywhere at any time. It's inevitable at this point, actually. Thanks Wall Street!

it won,t despite many of our I am Legend fantasies.

You must have your head in the sand. This type of stuff already HAS happened here, and mini versions have also happened.

Here's on reporter's account of the root causes of the insanity going on in London.   Underlying themes: welfare class with no morals, no work ethic, no sense of personal responsibility, and no accountability.  Sounds familiar, like maybe this article is from the very near future, and describes riots in the US...

You must have your head in the sand. This type of stuff already HAS happened here, and mini versions have also happened.

Also, this. ^^

It's a good thing you brought up APEC which is coming Nov 7-13 (I've included the dates for ministers meetings etc.).  Instead of hand wringing about extended wrol.  How about starting small.  Let's say by November 1st, Have 2 weeks worth of food, drinking water, & cooking source ready.  That gives 8 weekends to get a little bit of something.  Spread it out a bit.  In these hard times, it may be hard to spring on $240 worth of goods in a weekend.  Spread over 8 weekends...$30 is a bit more manageable.  Even $15 a weekend can get you there. 

Longs had spaghetti for 98 cents and cans of spaghetti sauce for $1.  They had spam for $1.67 a week before. 
Wal-Mart has chunky campbells soup for $2.40.  That's enough of a meal for myself.  If I am doing manual labor...add rice.
Foodland $10 bag of rice.

Don't forget some treats for the kids.  Hard candy etc.

Of course, stay within your budget.  If $10 is all you can afford...there is no way I'm going to chastise you because of that.  Encourage your loved ones to do the same.  Once you get your 2 weeks worth...try aiming for a month's worth.  Eat your food and replenish. 

As with everything, getting started is the hard part.  A bit overwhelming, but cut it down to small bits (like eating an elephant).

Good luck.
J.



to get back on topic...when do I expect riots?  When the welfare checks stop coming.

You wan't to see some LA riots... let things get a little bit worse (say unemployment around 15-20%), and have someone shoot the wrong gang member or minority American. All hell will break loose.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41372364/America_s_Most_Destructive_Riots_of_All_Time?slide=1

These things HAPPEN.  Riots, looting and destruction also happened during Hurricane Katrina.  I could certainly agree with Jaydawg, let well-fare checks get delayed a month or two and see what happens.  If it's stealing of starving, well, I'm pretty sure ones instinct to survive is going to overcome the moral dilemma that you are burdened with.

You wan't to see some LA riots... let things get a little bit worse (say unemployment around 15-20%), and have someone shoot the wrong gang member or minority American. All hell will break loose.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41372364/America_s_Most_Destructive_Riots_of_All_Time?slide=1

These things HAPPEN.  Riots, looting and destruction also happened during Hurricane Katrina.  I could certainly agree with Jaydawg, let well-fare checks get delayed a month or two and see what happens.  If it's stealing of starving, well, I'm pretty sure ones instinct to survive is going to overcome the moral dilemma that you are burdened with.

Thanks for the link Chris.  It seems rioting doesn't last more than a week, but loss of businesses, especially grocery stores, will prolong the agony.

http://hawaiiccw.com/news/rioting-in-london-can-it-happen-in-honolulu/

I've gotta get back into the updates for Hawaiiccw.com. I'm also looking for help if someone would like to write up some guest contributions. I have one that I have got to get finalized and posted right now from another 2Ahawaii contributor.

<snip> If it's stealing of starving, well, I'm pretty sure ones instinct to survive is going to overcome the moral dilemma that you are burdened with.

That's something to consider, IMHO.  Do those of you who have food stockpiles try to keep it under the radar with the neighbors?  I'm going to start laying in stores when my bank account recovers from my last vacation, but I'm not telling the neighbors.  I get it that my neighbor may not be prepared, and I'm a pretty charitable guy, so I'll help if I can, but the bottom line is that if I've put in the time, effort, and money to prepare for something, I'm not going to subsequently starve simply to feed the masses who were less prepared.  OTOH, that would be a pretty tough call to make, when Jim and Charlene from next door are on your porch with a starving baby, asking for just a little [fill in the blank]. 

So at what point would you start sharing supplies with others?  How does one know how long their stores have to hold out for?  It seems like a guy could put himself in a bad spot if he figures he's got six months of food, gives away half to various needy neighbors, and then it takes four months for things to settle down to the point that the Red Cross can start to make a meaningful impact.  Then again, how much sleep would you lose if Jim starved and left little Johnny fatherless while you hoarded a six month supply for a state of emergency that ended up only lasting three months?  Tough calls I hope we never have to make, but something to think about nonetheless. 

Quote from: ren on August 09, 2011, 09:43:26 PM

it won,t despite many of our I am Legend fantasies.

You must have your head in the sand. This type of stuff already HAS happened here, and mini versions have also happened.

Maybe I should have inserted sarcasm.

Cougar, your point about charity with the neighbors/friends hits home with me. When we had the tsunami warning a while back, I had 20+ people come up to my house because I live up the hill. When they called, absolutely I told them all to head for my house, higher ground. But, I also told them to bring water and food. Out of all the idiots that came to my house that night, one guy brought one, count it, ONE bottle of water. The total supplies that were brought was a bag of chips, a leftover snack tray, the one bottle of water, lots of beer and 2 bottles of wine. My charity went thin after that night. I *do* have a supply of food and water (and other things) to keep myself and my GF alive for quite some time. However, I made it clear to them, and will do so in the event of another tsunami or similar event, IF YOU DON"T HAVE WATER AND FOOD.... but as the words left my mouth they sickened me. Can I really deny people I know? Whew... this is a point my dad, rest in peace, never wavered on - he always said he'd take care of his own, the rest are on their own. However, I would guess it depends on how things go, but I cannot see myself giving away my preparedness to fools who cannot even round up water for themselves. Thoughts?

BTW, I lifted my skirt more than I usually do about my supplies... I expressly do NOT share my preparedness with my neighbors. I know my house would be the first place they'd come to! I quietly make my preparations....