Sept 2014, Store clerk's son kills armed robber - what if this happened in HI? (Read 6092 times)

Jl808



Since our HRS statutes allow being armed in your place of work, what would happen if you happen to be at your own retail store and an armed robber came in to try and rob you? 

If this was in Hawaii, would this have ended up well for the clerk's son?
I think, therefore I am armed.
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edster48

Since he stopped shooting the criminal once he disarmed him.....maybe he'd be OK. Only because he had witnesses and video evidence.

I'm not so sure that Hawaii's "version" of the castle doctrine extends to a publicly accessible place, but he was acting in defense of someone being threatened with bodily harm and death.

I suspect he would still face a civil suit from the criminals family, since he was undoubtedly a "good boy" that fell in with the "wrong kind of people" and "didn't deserve this".

Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

Heavies

Since he stopped shooting the criminal once he disarmed him.....maybe he'd be OK. Only because he had witnesses and video evidence.

I'm not so sure that Hawaii's "version" of the castle doctrine extends to a publicly accessible place, but he was acting in defense of someone being threatened with bodily harm and death.

I suspect he would still face a civil suit from the criminals family, since he was undoubtedly a "good boy" that fell in with the "wrong kind of people" and "didn't deserve this".


At least he "shot him in the leg", they can't cry about that..... Lol! 

But seriously,
It is a guarantee that the victim would be arrested and detained, weapon confiscated, until the demigod, um, I mean DA decides if they want to press charges against the victim, meanwhile the family is free to fend for themselves in the case the scumbags buddies want to come back and avenge the death of their "good boy" friend

Jl808

Thanks for the replies.  Having the video certainly helps.

Seems like a good idea to have cameras installed inside.

The son was very lucky the robber didn't shoot him back with the shot gun.
I think, therefore I am armed.
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The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

macsak

Thanks for the replies.  Having the video certainly helps.

Seems like a good idea to have cameras installed inside.

The son was very lucky the robber didn't shoot him back with the shot gun.

i realize that the video only showed part of the scene
and the computer simulation could be wrong
but i took a couple other things away from the video

in the computer simulation, it shows the boy shooting from behind
this puts the clerk in front of him too (know your target and what's beyond it)
plus he assumed that the robber was going to shoot and engaged first
if the robber was shot in the back, it looks bad on the shooter in court
plus the robber could've reflexively fired when shot from the back, injuring the clerk

next thing was that under stress, the son missed A LOT at very close range
it is shown in statistics that even police officers miss too

the main thing i got from this was how much the robber was able to move around the store, even though he was fatally shot
he fired several times, and it is a miracle that the family was not hurt more
(although in the video, i think the son is holding his shoulder/arm like he was shot at the end)

ren

Media would paint a picture of the criminal as the product of a broken family and that he/she was just robbing the store to provide for a family of 10
Armed good citizen would go to jail. Store would shutter. Sorry I have no faith in Hawaii sentiment towards an armed good citizen.
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Surf

I am not a lawyer and this is NOT legal advice.  We should also remember that anyone can sue for anything, so I am not going to talk in regards to civil matters or Hawaii bias on how they look at things from a civil standpoint. 

Some thoughts on the video....

If the weapon is legal and legally in the store, it does not matter who uses it in defense of their own life or the life of another.  If the use of force fits the scenario, defense of life is #1 priority.   If you are brought up on some other illegal weapons charge, that is separate matter.  Dad giving son the weapon is gtg.  We might also apply this to carrying concealed illegally which is a more extreme example.  Say this happened on the street by someone who was carrying a weapon illegally.  If the justification in use of deadly force was there, that criteria is met.  Was the weapon carried legally?  No.  Can you be brought up on charges?  Of course.  Was your use of force appropriate (assuming it was), your still alive, you have legal precedence on use of force.  May you be brought up on weapons charges?  Sure.  Are you alive?  I am NOT advocating breaking any laws but just giving a more extreme hypothetical that might explain the store situation more clearly.

Think of other scenarios within the home, where family members gain access to guns that are not registered to them, nor are they old enough to own.  They use it in self defense.  GTG.  I know a store differs from a home, but the same basis for self defense and use of force applies.

If you are legally able to shoot in defense of your life or the life of someone else, it does not matter where you shoot them, or their body orientation in regards to you?  Facing you, back to you?  If you reasonably believe that making yourself or your actions known prior, retreating or not taking action might place yourself or another in more danger of their life, research this one.  Of course you should understand your backstop but that is a different concern. 

Most people don't truly understand the actual dynamics of an armed encounter until well they are in an armed encounter and most people don't have adequate training which is obviously outlined by hit / miss ratio, even in regards to LE.  . 

Most people don't truly understand the dynamics in regards to ballistics, stopping power and the length of time that someone can actually maintain a fight based on their mental or chemical induced factors.  Shy of an effective central nervous system interruption or if you get a psychological "tap out" by the assailant, there are no quick stops.  Even if I explode someones ticker, it takes a minimum of 4 seconds to deny enough oxygen flow in and out of the brain to cause incapacitation.  They have seen people last 15+ seconds.  If your average, non-trained person can pull a trigger every quarter of a second, how many times can they potentially end your life also?  Again due to lack knowledge and correct training, most people, even LE don't have the right mindset or utilize correct tactics in an armed encounter.  I am not talking tactics like doing "Hondo rolls", but pure knowledge on employing and running the weapon on a potential lethal threat and at what point that threat no longer becomes a threat.  Most don't understand that threats are still active much longer than they originally assume from their first encounter or exchange.  This video is a good example of this.  Not digging at the son as he did a good job, but it could have just as easily ended poorly with one lucky shot from the perp as he left the the door open for a lot of opportunity.  The more the individual knows via training and education on the topic, the easier the ability for person to correctly articulate their actions and justification, but this is a deep topic in and of itself, so I will leave it there.

Again this is NOT legal advice and I am not a lawyer.  Take this fwiw.

mauidog

If you are legally able to shoot in defense of your life or the life of someone else, it does not matter where you shoot them, or their body orientation in regards to you?  Facing you, back to you?  If you reasonably believe that making yourself or your actions known prior, retreating or not taking action might place yourself or another in more danger of their life, research this one.  Of course you should understand your backstop but that is a different concern. 

This depends on the laws in your state.  In Oklahoma, they specifically deny the homeowner the chance to shoot a fleeing felon.  Let's say you are sitting at home, and you hear something outside.  You walk out and see someone driving away in your pick up. 

The law says he is not a threat to you, so you are not cleared to draw and fire your gun to stop the thief.  Of course, if the thief steers toward you, you are able to  defend yourself as he is not fleeing -- he's attempting to kill you with your truck.

That is why a bullet in the back could be interpreted as shooting a non-threatening, fleeing person.  There's always the argument that he was running away from you while shooting to the rear at you.  You might need corroboration (video, eye witness) to justify a shot in the back.

For places where there is no such restriction on use of force. you can shoot the bad guy from any direction you must.  I read where an employee and customer were being lead to the rear of a store by am armed robber.  they had no idea whether they were going to be locked in the office or murdered to eliminate any witnesses to the crime.  The shopper pulled his .380 and shot the robber point blank in the back of the head.  No question if it was justified.

From a pragmatic (if not legal) viewpoint, you are not a Cop.  You do not have to give the bad guy a chance to surrender nor stop shooting if he turns away.  For all you might be able to tell, he's just retreating to seek cover so he can try and kill you from a less exposed position.  If someone points a gun, you have to assume they are going to use it.  It's your life in the balance, and only you can decide if you will fight back or take your chances by cooperating.  Personally, I'd hate to think I made the choice to cooperate and then lived to hear of the same man killing 3 others in a later robbery.

The first rule of a gunfight is: there are no rules.  It's not a contest where you ever want to come in second place.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Heavies

I am not a lawyer and this is NOT legal advice.  We should also remember that anyone can sue for anything, so I am not going to talk in regards to civil matters or Hawaii bias on how they look at things from a civil standpoint. 

Some thoughts on the video....   ...

  We might also apply this to carrying concealed illegally which is a more extreme example.  Say this happened on the street by someone who was carrying a weapon illegally.  If the justification in use of deadly force was there, that criteria is met.  Was the weapon carried legally?  No.  Can you be brought up on charges?  Of course.  Was your use of force appropriate (assuming it was), your still alive, you have legal precedence on use of force.  May you be brought up on weapons charges?  Sure.  Are you alive?  I am NOT advocating breaking any laws but just giving a more extreme hypothetical that might explain the store situation more clearly.   ...

Again this is NOT legal advice and I am not a lawyer.  Take this fwiw.



I am not a lawyer either, so take this as it is also...

If you carry concealed, illegally, in Hawaii, you WILL be brought up on firearms charges, AND sentenced to the required minimum, which I believe is 5 years.  AND you will lose all your current RIGHTS as you will be a FELON.  NO MATTER IF YOU HAD A VALID AND JUSTIFIABLE SELF DEFENSE SCENARIO! 

I have seen this occur;  THIS  is the states stance on self defense.  It is utterly disgusting.   CRIMINALS IN THIS STATE HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN YOU DO!

IANAL, so....   If you get off, Good for you !!!!   :shaka: :thumbsup: :shaka: :thumbsup:

Jl808

the main thing i got from this was how much the robber was able to move around the store, even though he was fatally shot
he fired several times, and it is a miracle that the family was not hurt more
(although in the video, i think the son is holding his shoulder/arm like he was shot at the end)

Macsak - thanks for the analysis. Yeah that was the big take away from me too.  The son must not have been using a .45 pistol because you know, 45acp rounds don't just kill the body instantly but the soul also.

Surf - thank you for that very informative post. I'm gonna re-read that a bit more and maybe a third time.

Heavies - kind of a damned if you do or damned if you don't huh?  It seems like criminals get rewarded more than the law abiding. When will the people of Hawaii wake up from their slumber?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 08:27:51 PM by Jl808 »
I think, therefore I am armed.
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SpeedTek

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Robbers family will sue the store and win.

The guy protecting himself will go to jail for life.  Hawaii is too liberal.  We should not have guns in the store and not be able to protect ourselves.
We MAY ruin some poor guys life who needs some of the store owners hard earded cash to feed his family or drug addiction. 

Also if we dont have guns criminals cant get them either!

I love going to holiday parties. Some dumbass always has to ask WHO YOU GONNA SHOOT?

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SpeedTek

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I just read the story where the deceased robber brother came into the store and threatened REVENGE! Revenge for?

Your dumb ass brother robbing a store with a SHOTGUN? WTF is going on in America.  Why do we have this type of STUPID revenge thinking when it was the CRIMINAL'S dumbass idea to commit a crime in the first place???>>>>!!!!! WTF?
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I collect M1 Carbines, PM me if youre selling!
& Bolt Action 308s also 10/22 Rugers.
Buying STOCK Ruger 10/22 parts and bits, PM me.
Now doing Vintage VW Parts!

mauidog

I just read the story where the deceased robber brother came into the store and threatened REVENGE! Revenge for?

Your dumb ass brother robbing a store with a SHOTGUN? WTF is going on in America.  Why do we have this type of STUPID revenge thinking when it was the CRIMINAL'S dumbass idea to commit a crime in the first place???>>>>!!!!! WTF?

No different than that robber's mother saying the CCW that shot her armed son should have just kept walking and not stuck his nose in something that wasn't his business.

Quote
“If his (the customer) life was not in danger, if no one had a gun up to him, if no one pointed a gun at him –
what gives him the right to think that it’s okay to just shoot someone? You should have just left the store
and went wherever you had to go in your car or whatever.”

An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper