Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment (Read 9394 times)

mauidog

Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« on: October 28, 2015, 06:37:22 PM »
I came across this long ago and never had any reason to seriously apply the concepts to anything tangible.

However, after many, many exchanges on here, it occurred to me Schrödinger's cat is analogous to some of the thought processes I observe repeatedly on the forum here.

In a nutshell, it's a paradox.  It assumes the state of one object (in this case, a living cat) which is contained in a closed box with several items.  The state of the cat, living or dead, is dependent on the state of all other items in combination.  Only if a random subatomic event occurs (details are unimportant) will the cat expire.

You can't know what the state of the cat is until you open the box.  From a quantum physics perspective, the cat is in a "superposition" state, which means it is both living and dead (half alive/half dead).  Mathematically, the chance after an hour in the box of the cat being alive is the same as the cat being dead, as that is how long it takes for the isotope in the box to decay once.

The experiment is meant to describe how absurd the concept of quantum mechanics really is.

Something either is, or it is not.  Reality is reality.  You can't cause something to exist using theory and supposition. 

The state of the cat does not depend on the observer.  It's either alive, or it's dead.  To pretend the state of the cat changes only when you open the door to look is just as absurd. 

If you've read arguments on here that try to  use beliefs, feelings, emotions, and theories as support with no basis in reality, remember:  the cat is either dead or alive.  It does not depend on whether or not YOU can see if it's alive.  It's condition is what it is, and no amount of theorizing or arguing the cat "isn't necessarily alive" will change that.

 :thumbsup:     :geekdanc:     :thumbsup:     :geekdanc:     :thumbsup:

Just thought I'd throw this out there .... for what it's worth!   If nothing else, it's something different!!   :D


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 08:15:09 PM by mauidog »
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

dustoff003

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 08:11:20 PM »
Schrödinger's Cat can't be any worse than Greg's Cat...

mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 08:16:25 PM »
Schrödinger's Cat can't be any worse than Greg's Cat...


We're gonna need a bigger box!
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Tom_G

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 10:44:08 PM »
Something either is, or it is not.  Reality is reality.  You can't cause something to exist using theory and supposition. 

The state of the cat does not depend on the observer.  It's either alive, or it's dead.  To pretend the state of the cat changes only when you open the door to look is just as absurd. 

Bullshit.  I'm calling bullshit.  Read up on the double slit experiment (or better yet, watch ) then try to say that with a straight face.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 11:45:50 PM »
Bullshit.  I'm calling bullshit.  Read up on the double slit experiment (or better yet, watch this friendly video) then try to say that with a straight face.

Quote
You are the only contemporary physicist, besides Laue, who sees that one cannot get around the assumption of reality, if only one is honest.
Most of them simply do not see what sort of risky game they are playing with reality—reality as something independent of what is experimentally
established. Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gunpowder + cat
in a box, in which the psi-function of the system contains both the cat alive and blown to bits. Nobody really doubts that the presence or absence
of the cat is something independent of the act of observation
.


-- Albert Einstein, to Schrödinger, 1950
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 11:54:37 PM »
I do admit. Tom, I have experienced the "changed by observation" effect my whole life.

I can't recall the number of times someone asked me to help them with a computer problem.  Before calling me over, they were able to reproduce the problem every single time they tried using a program feature or debugging some computer code.

As soon as I walk over and say, "Show me the error you are getting," IT WORKS!  They had witnesses it wasn't working, but as soon as I was observing, the "state" of the computer was altered.

Anecdotal at best, but it demonstrates one of the reasons I get paid the big bucks at work! :)

It's not what you can do, but what they THINK you can do!   :geekdanc:
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

eyeeatingfish

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2015, 06:19:07 AM »
Since you are most likely referring to me, there is an issue I raise with your analogy.
Not everything is a black and white issue where something either is, or it isn't. Sometimes insisting something is or it isn't is creating a false dichotomy.

Having said that the whole cat thing is an interesting concept.

aieahound

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2015, 07:14:10 AM »
Kinds of reminds me of some philosophical analogies.

A persons Reality/observation depends on where they're standing.

Two men stare at a coin (or piece of paper).
1 from the front and 1 from the side.
They argue is it thin or wide.
They yell at each other "I'm looking right at it" "it is thin!" "It is wide!"
Each telling the other "you are an idiot!"
Of course, It is both thin and wide.
But they will never know if they don't take one step to the side.
To see the other's perspective.

A man in Hawaii calls a man in Seattle.
Asks what color the sky is
Man in Seattle says it's gray.
Man in Hawaii says it's blue.
Their friend, who is watching a beautiful sunset conferences in and says the sky is pink, orange and yellow.

What color is the sky? It depends.

Not quite quantum mechanics/ Schrodingers Cat but seems related to some of the theories in the article.
And like Tom's double slit reference.
Do electrons act like waves or matter? both.

Of course opinion is a whole nother matter.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 08:22:42 AM by aieahound »

mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2015, 08:40:05 AM »
Kinds of reminds me of some philosophical analogies.

A persons Reality/observation depends on where they're standing.

Two men stare at a coin (or piece of paper).
1 from the front and 1 from the side.
They argue is it thin or wide.
They yell at each other "I'm looking right at it" "it is thin!" "It is wide!"
Each telling the other "you are an idiot!"
Of course, It is both thin and wide.
But they will never know if they don't take one step to the side.
To see the other's perspective.

A man in Hawaii calls a man in Seattle.
Asks what color the sky is
Man in Seattle says it's gray.
Man in Hawaii says it's blue.
Their friend, who is watching a beautiful sunset conferences in and says the sky is pink, orange and yellow.

What color is the sky? It depends.

Not quite quantum mechanics/ Schrodingers Cat but seems related to some of the theories in the article.
And like Tom's double slit reference.
Do electrons act like waves or matter? both.

Of course opinion is a whole nother matter.

You're illustrating the difference between reality and perception.  I agree perception to the observer is that person's impression of reality.  But perceiving something to be real it does not cause that something to BE as you perceive it in reality.

If I look at you from 2 feet away, I perceive you to be, say, 5' 9" tall.  That estimate is probably close, based on comparing you with my own height.

If, however, I view you from a greater distance, like maybe 50 feet, you'll appear smaller.  Visually, my perception of you changes because of the distance.

In reality, did you change size?  Did you shrink a foot merely because I perceive you as shorter now?  Of course not.

Reality is what reality is.  Perception is a factor in beliefs and reactions to what you perceive to be the truth, but it stops there.  Reality isn't changed because of your perception and your observation.  What has to change is your acknowledgement that what you see is not always the truth, and you must temper your belief in what is real based on that.  Without additional evidence to support your belief, there is always room for error, thus room for being wrong.

However, once all doubt of reality is removed, it is absurd to continue arguing your own perception is more true than reality supported by direct observation and evidence which excludes false perceptions..
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

aieahound

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2015, 09:30:47 AM »
You're illustrating the difference between reality and perception.  I agree perception to the observer is that person's impression of reality.  But perceiving something to be real it does not cause that something to BE as you perceive it in reality.

Reality is what reality is. 

but reality can be plural. It is often not one or the other. But both or many.

Perception is a factor in beliefs and reactions to what you perceive to be the truth, but it stops there.  Reality isn't changed because of your perception and your observation.  What has to change is your acknowledgement that what you see is not always the truth, and you must temper your belief in what is real based on that. 

i agree. Kind of my point

Without additional evidence to support your belief, there is always room for error, thus room for being wrong.

there's always room for being wrong.

However, once all doubt of reality is removed, it is absurd to continue arguing your own perception is more true than reality supported by direct observation and evidence which excludes false perceptions..

here's the weakness. All doubt of whose reality. Reality supported by direct observation is based in perception. And evidence is almost always subject to perception.
Just look at how many theories there are contradicting or modifying Schrodinger's cat.



No never, never always.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 09:42:07 AM by aieahound »

mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2015, 09:39:56 AM »
No, observation can be very objective void of perception issues.  That's why we have math, measuring tools, and science.

If we take the how tall are you example, it I see you standing 50 feet away, I have a  difficult time gauging your height because of the perspective. 

However, if  I use a scope with a distance-to-height scale reticle, or you stand next to a 6 foot wall, or better yet, you are next to an 8-foot yardstick painted on the building next to you, I can use those tools to overcome the perception problem to determine your height.

We do it all the time in shooting, surveying, golf, .... all kinds of technology to aid us in finding the truth.

Once you obtain the mathematical measurements for something using a standard scale and method, the perception problem is solved.  No more "looks different to me".  5' 9" is exactly 5' 9" from any angle, distance, or thickness of corrective lenses!
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

aieahound

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2015, 10:02:01 AM »
Good point at a simplified level. ( which I need )

How come so many quantum physicists are still debating quantum superposition and decoherence ?
Is it because some things cannot be objectively observed and measured ?
(Serious question)

Tom's double slit reference provides evidence there can be dual realities.

Again, whose reality would be correct ?

Anyone else want to chime on this ?
Oldfart, Inspector, Tom G.....some of you cerebral bastahds out there.
This stuff is interesting.

Feel free to reply though MDog. I'm interested.
Just thought other members with insight could join the convo.
Enjoyed Tom's video.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 10:14:49 AM by aieahound »

PeaShooter

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2015, 02:04:15 PM »
I have a graduate degree in theoretical physics with an emphasis on this particular area (doesn't mean that I know everything about it, or understand it well, though).

Most "quantum physicists" these days don't concern themselves with Shrodinger's cat, or any other concepts that relate to what are called interpretations of quantum mechanics. In other words, they have for the time being mostly given up on trying to figure out how quantum mechanics applies to our reality in general, outside of various specific experiments and phenomena (that don't involve a cat). No one cares about "observers" or wave-function collapse.

That area has been relegated to more of a metaphysics debate and is left for philosophers and sci-fi writers to muse about. Today's quantum physicists instead focus on the advanced mathematical formulas and calculations associated with various quantum physics theories, and specifically-chosen experiments that test and validate them. Note that Einstein and other physicists mentioned here were around a long time ago, when quantum physics was just emerging and not widely accepted. Einstein won his Nobel prize for an early quantum physics experiment, but was never really a quantum physicist himself, and sort of never even believed in quantum physics. Meanwhile, his greatest accomplishments (figuring out the special and general theories of relativity) never received the Nobel prize (hence why I don't think very highly of the Nobel prize for anything).

The experiment is meant to describe how absurd the concept of quantum mechanics really is.
I don't agree with your assessment of the purpose of the Shrodinger's cat thought experiment. It's just meant to invoke thought about how to interpret quantum mechanics. There is no official answer to the puzzle.

I pretty much agree with everything else you said, though. In most cases quantum mechanics doesn't apply to our reality. The world exists in some determined state whether we are aware of it or not.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 02:30:37 PM by PeaShooter »

Tom_G

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2015, 05:53:17 PM »
Einstein's letter doesn't deny the superimposition of states; it ridicules people who take indeterminacy to equate with nonexistence.  Of course there's a cat in the box!  No one is debating that.

The dual slit experiment gets even weirder than that cool animated synopsis says.  When the application of detectors changed the outcome, the first belief was that the detectors were physically changing the experiment, perhaps by electromagnetic fields.  So, they took it one step farther, and interrupted the collection of data.  With the detectors turned on but the recorder turned off, the result was an interference pattern.  With the collectors turned on and the recorder turned on, the result was a particle model.

Peashooter actually illustrates a problem, at least to my way of thinking.  People in the field are ignoring this aspect of quantum mechanics because they don't know what to do with it next.  This would be akin to Galileo Galilei saying "Wow, my observations of the heavens don't match with popular scientific belief about an Earth-centered solar system.  I don't know what to do about that.  I guess I'll go grow tomatoes instead." 

But, before we jump off the deep end of this train of thought, I'd like to propose that the original premise is flawed.  Attempting to equate quantum indeterminacy, which is an established reality (see what I did there?), with logical fallacies is a complete non-sequitur.  A person who makes decisions based on their feelings isn't guilty of fabricating a reality, or of destroying one.  They simply use a process that you disagree with.

Let's look at gun control and take the premise "If there were no guns, no one would die as a result of guns being used."  That statement is factual.  Elsewhere, I've argued that the NFA has actually succeeded in reducing the number of murders involving the use of machine guns.  And I stand by that as well. 

"But look at the facts, man!" you scream in frustration.  Of course, both of those propositions are flawed not in their accuracy, but in their application.  But facts are slippery things, and there are a godawful lot of them to collate.  At some level, all of us make decisions based on intuition.  The percentage of "gut" versus "brain" varies from decision to decision, and from person to person. 

So, the more I talk, the less I understand what it is that's being asked.  There's a quote that's attributed to Uncle Albert that I think is relevant here: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Jl808

Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2015, 06:52:22 PM »
Perhaps the assumption that either wave or particle should explain movements of electron is flawed.    Since we are not able to see electrons and since we are only guessing, our model of it as a particle may not be accurate.

Who knows. Pretty cool that we have a resident physicist here.  I was majoring in Physics as an undergrad but changed major so not an expert.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 06:59:42 PM by Jl808 »
I think, therefore I am armed.
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mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2015, 08:26:31 PM »
Remember, I don't have any dog (or cat) in this fight!  The characterizations of quantum physics were those of Schrödinger, Einstein and the other scientists they refer to.

I simply saw a parallel with certain aspects of some threads here, and I thought it would be something to throw out for entertainment.

The underlying principles of this "thought experiment" are about a paradox, how what  you know based on valid and repeatable measurement and observation is what's real.  Quantum physics is a discipline based in abstract.  It's represented by theory and the abstract language of mathematics.

As I stated, to me (in my opinion), it is a good analogy for someone who beats a topic to death with no provable measurements or observations with a seeming desire to merely argue.  Reality exists.  Is there more than one reality?  If you say yes, then that requires the ability to demonstrate your opinion is true. 

Is there more than one truth?  Do we know why this reality exists and did not become a different version of the current reality?  That's a hypothetical discussion for the most part.  I'd rather stick to what I consider to be concrete science.  There are standards, processes, measurements, observations, conclusions, tests of those conclusions , and so forth.  Otherwise, it becomes an unwinnable argument on both sides with no feasible end to the "Well, that's not necessarily true" or "that's not true all the time."

For every rule there are exceptions.  We can't base our decisions or axioms on the exceptions.  Rules must encompass the majority, or else why have rules at all?

I'm glad we've had some fun with this.  Just please don't attribute any conclusions or criticisms to me.  I don't expect there to be any right or wrong with this topic -- but, then again, I'm no Einstein!   :wave:
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

PeaShooter

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2015, 08:35:12 PM »
I think the wave vs particle debate that students in physics classes may have has already been settled. Most physicists currently believe that all matter in the universe is essentially made up out of discrete particles (although particles can collide and change into other particles, and there can in turn be quantum uncertainty in exactly what particles are existing at any given moment in time). However, the rules of physics that govern these discrete entities, are not very particle-like. The equations and properties that are attributed to them are complicated and wave-like (particle psi-wavefunctions).

The unsettled question is how these wavefunctions and quantum microscopic behavior scale up to our macroscopic real world, with ordinary physics. That's where the "interpretation" bit comes in, and that's where physicists have given up for now. Part of this unsettled question is the "Is quantum physics actually deterministic or probabilistic?" debate that physics students may have, and is part of what the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment attempts to consider.

I mostly agree with Tom_G that giving up was bad. Einstein refused to give up such thoughts, and declared his opinion that "God does not play dice with the universe." Perhaps what happened is that physicists simply couldn't agree on any one answer, so they set aside that issue to march forward with rigorous, yet narrow scientific experiments and calculations, in the hopes that one day something will be uncovered that could shed new light on the correct interpretation.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 09:50:36 PM by PeaShooter »

Tom_G

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2015, 10:37:32 PM »
I mostly agree with Tom_G that giving up was bad. Einstein refused to give up such thoughts, and declared his opinion that "God does not play dice with the universe." Perhaps what happened is that physicists simply couldn't agree on any one answer, so they set aside that issue to march forward with rigorous, yet narrow scientific experiments and calculations, in the hopes that one day something will be uncovered that could shed new light on the correct interpretation.

See, I think we're on the cusp pf a grand "whoops, our bad" just now.  There have been lots of them.  Flat earth.  Earth-centric solar system.  Smoking.  There are myriad examples (I do love being able to slip "myriad" into a conversation) of scientific or medical powers authoritatively saying "This is the truth" only to turn around later and say "whoops, our bad."  And now, I think we're beating our heads against that wall.  Dark matter?  Quantum indeterminacy and entanglement?  Cosmic strings?  Come on!  We are WRONG.  Sure, we've made some repeatable results.  Heck, the atom bomb is hard to argue with.  But we're spinning increasingly implausible systems to account for our observations.  Give it up, I say.  The Earth is not flat. 

But, as I stand poised to rip apart the nature of reality as the rest of you know it, I stand by my position that argument from emotion is not a fallacy.  I did not reason my way to some of the biggest mistakes in my life; nor did I reason my way to love.  Come to think of it, just why am I so hung up on reason as a good thing? 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 11:37:57 PM by Tom_G »
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

eyeeatingfish

Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2015, 11:24:34 PM »
See, I think we're on the cusp pf a grand "whoops, our bad" just now.  There have been lots of them.  Flat earth.  Earth-centric solar system.  Smoking.  There are myriad examples (I do love being able to slip "myriad" into a conversation) of scientific or medical powers authoritatively saying "This is the truth" only to turn around later and say "whoops, our bad."  And now, I think we're beating our heads against that wall.  Dark matter?  Quantum indeterminacy and entanglement?  Cosmic strings?  Come on!  We are WRONG.  Sure, we've made some repeatable results.  Heck, the atom bomb is hard to argue with.  But we're spinning increasingly implausible systems to account for our observations.  Give it up, I say.  The Earth is not flat. 

But, as I stand poised to rip apart the nature of reality as the rest of you know it, I stand by my position that argument from emotion is not a fallacy.  I did not reason my way to some of the biggest mistakes in my life; nor did I reason my way to love.  Come to think of it, just why am I so hung up on reason as a good thing?

As they say, one answer creates two more questions.... or something like that.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 11:43:57 PM by Jl808 »

mauidog

Re: Schrödinger's Cat: A Thought Experiment
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 12:51:42 AM »
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper