Poll

Should Hawaii require more safety training than current law requires (i.e., 4 hours in-class training + 2 hrs of field traininig)?

Yes. Current requirement is wholly insufficient and more training should be required before a person is allowed to acquire a firearm.
Yes, but the current requirement only needs a slight tweaking.
No. The current requirement is sufficient.
No. They've gone ape and require too much.
Hey! I ordered a hamburger!

Poll: Is Hawaii's Current Handgun Safety Training Course Requirement Sufficient? (Read 50860 times)

Funtimes

A honest truth would be there have, historically, been even greater burdens on firearms if you look back in history.  Professor Adam Winkler of UCLA did a really good job of this Gun Fight. I encourage everyone to purchase and read a copy.

 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393077411/?tag=2ahawaii-20

Hmmm...$18.45 on Amazon.com....

That's about the cost of a box of 130 gr .270 Winchester at SA on sale.

Decisions, decisions, decision....

I think the kindle version may be cheaper. The book is good, and you don't have to take my word for it (omg reading rainbow!).
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s15project

Making mandatory safety class or more hours of training is more of a control by the Gov't. Look at what happened here.  The law stated that HPD  taught  safety classes are okay but  HPD will not teach the safety  classes. Then HPD said the Hunters Ed course is no good because it didn't have the range time.  - Yea I know Hunters Ed is more for hunters and hikers but thats course is included. The Hunters Ed courses here are usually full and on a standby bases. That class is held once every 3 months or so.

Anyways I'll have a hamburger too.

Hunter's Ed is no good?  Since when?  I used it last year to purchase a pistol.  And I've been thinking about gettting another one for christmas.

bass monkey

Nah hunters ed still qualifies.  I used that to get my handgun permit.  Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!

230RN

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I was figuring 1934 - 1779 = 155.

OMG a 3% error! For shame, Terry!

I was figuring Federally.

 
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

Kingkeoni

I was figuring 1934 - 1779 = 155.

OMG a 3% error! For shame, Terry!

I was figuring Federally.

I think most of us weren't around then.

Although rumor has it, that you owned your first gun in the year 1834.   Haha, (J/K)
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

230RN

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Quote
Although rumor has it, that you owned your first gun in the year 1834.   Haha, (J/K)

:) You don't have to label it as a joke.  I have a pretty good sense of humor about age.

I hate to sound like an Old Pharte talking down to you Whippersnappers, but I fired my first gun in about 1946-ish and owned my first cartridge gun in about 1959 (some air/CO2-operated guns before then).  This latter was under the very restrictive laws of New York, which I thought were Supposed To Be Universal Truths.

When I moved out to Colorado in about 1963, I discovered what it was like to breathe "free air" and bought my first handgun (a cheap "Saturday Night Special" in .22LR) out here in about 1963, practically the moment I established residency and got a Colorado driver's license. No paperwork, no nuthin' except to show my new DL to prove residency.

Still, for months, I felt like a criminal because I had a "GU-UHN," almost to the point where I'd draw the curtains so nobody outside could see me fondling it.   It took a while to break away from that "Noo Yawk attitude" about "GU-UHNS."

But I gradually became acclimated to "freedom" out here in CO and soon bought a Commercial 1911.  This was quite a challenging mental change after the NY brainwashing I'd been subjected to.  I also met and befriended a guy who was pretty gun-savvy and let me borrow a couple of his guns from time to time.  He also sponsored my membership in the NRA... yes, you needed a sponsor to join, at the time.

Got into reloading and especially high-power precision shooting, etc, etc, to the point nowadays where I own guns I haven't even fired yet.

I was royally pissed soon after GCA 1968 when I found I had to fill out paperwork to purchase a gun, and I couldn't mail-order them (thanks, Lee Harvey Oswald! :( ) .  At the time, the "paperwork" was  a mimeographed one-page affair from the ATF, or whatever it was called at the time,

And look where we've gone from there. 

So here comes the Old Pharte "talking down" to you Whippersnappers part.

(1)  As I stated above,

Quote
Any fee, tax, delay, training requirement, "reasonable burden," or any other restriction on firearms ownership or manner of bearing whatsoever, is inherently unconstitutional and illegal.

This, under the "shall not be infringed" rubric.  You can fiddley--fart around all you want about the meaning of the first clause, but the meaning of the operative clause is clear.  And to me, well-regulated means well-trained and equipped, not well-trammeled and restricted.  And "militia" means you and me, despite any Post-Ratification Weasel-Word definitions thereof.  You can squirm and worm your way around with local Court definitions of "constitutional," but that don't make them laws Constitutional nohow.

(2)  Any Post-Ratification Weasel-Word laws about firearms are null and void.  You can talk about "reasonable" all you want, but "reasonable " is an indefinite term.  Attempts to "clarify" it with a "reasonable man" test fall short, since "reasonable" to me means no restrictions, and "reasonable" to you means "yeah, sure, but a guy who is caught taking a leak in an alley should be branded as a sex offender (public exposure) and forever barred from owning or possessing a gun."  Which, I am told, is at least a theoretical possibility, even if it may never have been documented.  "Reasonable," my sweet pink wrinkled old ass.

(3)  While Colorado is not the most 2A-respecting state in the nation, when 2ahawaii started this site, I got interested because I loved Hawaii when I was there a couple of decades ago.  I have since found by reading your site that  your restrictions are inherently unreasonable and I am passionately engaged in your struggle to make them reasonable.

To my Olde Pharte definition.

....

Gotta go.  Gotta batten down some hatches a little bit 'cause 80 mph winds are blowing things around outside.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 11:35:20 AM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

2aHawaii

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We appreciate your "old fut" (old fart in Pidgin) support :D
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

Buying from Amazon? Click through here

vooduchikn

Nah hunters ed still qualifies.  I used that to get my handgun permit.  Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!

My hunters Ed from Wyoming is good here. I took the class in 1987.......still good as of two weeks ago.
Relax, I've banned myself..

bass monkey

Nah hunters ed still qualifies.  I used that to get my handgun permit.  Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!

My hunters Ed from Wyoming is good here. I took the class in 1987.......still good as of two weeks ago.

Holy shit thats when i was born....Nah.  Just keeping with the "old" theme.  Nah no offense.

vooduchikn

Nah hunters ed still qualifies.  I used that to get my handgun permit.  Picking it up on the 16th then shooting range on saturday!!

My hunters Ed from Wyoming is good here. I took the class in 1987.......still good as of two weeks ago.

Holy **** thats when i was born....Nah.  Just keeping with the "old" theme.  Nah no offense.

Its all good!
Relax, I've banned myself..

Kingkeoni

Damn voodoo, you're old.   :geekdanc:
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Kumachan

Sorry about the mix up.

I should of added   Honolulu police departement at one point said no to hunters ed. The police department on the other islands didn't have any problems. After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay  to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.

230RN

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Kumachan said,

Quote
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay  to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.

Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits.  Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.

Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.

You got that right, Chief.

Terry, 230RN

(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 07:44:04 AM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

bass monkey

Kumachan said,

Quote
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay  to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.

Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits.  Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.

Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.

You got that right, Chief.

Terry, 230RN

(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )



I agree.  Or at least let them be aware that people in hawaii have a vested interest in their rights to bear arms by supporting any gun measures/deferments, ranges, apply for ccw, etc, etc.
Speaking of which im going to apply for my ccw permit.  Will get declined, but at least it will be a new face showing up on the radar.

Funtimes

Kumachan said,

Quote
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay  to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.

Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits.  Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.

Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.

You got that right, Chief.

Terry, 230RN

(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )



I agree.  Or at least let them be aware that people in hawaii have a vested interest in their rights to bear arms by supporting any gun measures/deferments, ranges, apply for ccw, etc, etc.
Speaking of which im going to apply for my ccw permit.  Will get declined, but at least it will be a new face showing up on the radar.

I'm digging it =)! Mahalo for your support.
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Posts are not legal advice & are my own, unless said so.

Kingkeoni

Kumachan said,

Quote
After a threat of a lawsuit, Honolulu police department said okay. Seems like Honolulu police department makes up thier own rules. Hunters ed certificate is still okay  to apply for permit to acquire a handgun.

Sounds to me like you guys ought to absolutely bury them in lawsuits.  Your post reminded me of the fact that all bullies back off when confronted with a counter-threat.

Yeah, I know, "off-island" agents provocateur are stirring up the natives.

You got that right, Chief.

Terry, 230RN

(Welcome aboard, Kumachan ! )



I agree.  Or at least let them be aware that people in hawaii have a vested interest in their rights to bear arms by supporting any gun measures/deferments, ranges, apply for ccw, etc, etc.
Speaking of which im going to apply for my ccw permit.  Will get declined, but at least it will be a new face showing up on the radar.

I'm digging it =)! Mahalo for your support.

Dig 'em

Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

GZire

...........
I hate to sound like an Old Pharte talking down to you Whippersnappers, but I fired my first gun in about 1946-ish and owned my first cartridge gun in about 1959 (some air/CO2-operated guns before then).  This latter was under the very restrictive laws of New York, which I thought were Supposed To Be Universal Truths...................
Terry, 230RN

Jeebus...........When Dinosaurs Walked the Earth..........

230RN

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^

Yeah, and the damned Clan Leader wanted us to register our spears and high-capacity clubs.  "No clubs that weighed over 10 glubils, no spears with shafts over half a thumbjoint."

But the bad cavemen among us still carried clubs that weighed over 10 glubils, since they would disregard any club or spear limitations simply because they were bad boys in the first place.

That put us good clan membes at a disadvantage in protecting our firewood and bone tools, as well as our cavewives and daughters, so we un-chose that Clan Leader and chose another one.  He went back to being a ruleyer in private practice.

(A glubil is equivalent nowadays to about half a kilo, a thumbjoint is the distance from your thumbtip to the first joint, so half a thumbjoint is about .50 "caliber," and a ruleyer is more or less equivalent to the present day lawyer.)

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 06:45:27 PM by 230RN »
I do believe that the radical and crazy notion that the Founders meant what they said, is gradually soaking through the judicial system.

Tom_G

I've posted this elsewhere (or maybe in this very thread, but so many hours ago that I forgot it), but here's what I would do:

1.  Eliminate the requirement for training.  After all, any requirement can be interpreted as an obstacle in the path of exercising rights.

2.  Mandate a 20% tax on all sales of firearms and ammunition to anyone who cannot provide a current certification in safe firearms handling.

3.  Use the proceeds from said tax to sunsidize NRA-certified trainers providing free training to the public.

That way, anyone who REALLY doesn't want to train doesn't have to.  Anyone in a hurry to get a gun and some ammo can.  But, I bet you a shiny new gun of your choice, most folks will vote with their money and get certified.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Funtimes

I've posted this elsewhere (or maybe in this very thread, but so many hours ago that I forgot it), but here's what I would do:

1.  Eliminate the requirement for training.  After all, any requirement can be interpreted as an obstacle in the path of exercising rights.

2.  Mandate a 20% tax on all sales of firearms and ammunition to anyone who cannot provide a current certification in safe firearms handling.

3.  Use the proceeds from said tax to sunsidize NRA-certified trainers providing free training to the public.

That way, anyone who REALLY doesn't want to train doesn't have to.  Anyone in a hurry to get a gun and some ammo can.  But, I bet you a shiny new gun of your choice, most folks will vote with their money and get certified.

TBH I'd like to see the whole "NRA" certified thing go away. I honestly think the programs I can teach far exceed the NRA standards, are more practical, and just as safe.  Maybe they should have some sort of license test (although I don't really like that idea either). I just thin it kind of sucks that the NRA gets dibs on everything while having so much control of that persons license.  I don't like that people are forced to associate with an organization that they may not want to just to engage in the lawful exercise of a business.
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