Rifle differences (Read 12392 times)

bass monkey

Rifle differences
« on: November 14, 2011, 06:52:15 PM »
So i been wanting a semi-auto rifle and have started doing some research.  Seems like AR and AK are 2 of the most popular choices out there. 
       My biggest question would be what is the difference betweent the two.  From what i gathered today at the gun store, the AK is designed to be tossed around and still function properly, meaning not having as tight tolerences, affecting accuracy, while the ar has more tighter specs, meaning it needs to be kept cleaer and can shoot more accurate.  Does that pretty much sum it up or would others like to offer there advice as well. 
    Also what is the difference between gas and piston and which is preferred.  To my understanding piston requires less frequent cleaning, and the piston is the operating system that chambers the next round.  Gas uses the gas from the barrel instead to accomplish this.
    Needs are pretty much to have a semi-auto rifle handy, maybe even for SD or something along those lines.  Dont plan to shoot past 100yrds(i think). anything farther then that i plan to get a .308 bolt action or something.
From what i have seen there are a lot of manufactures out there that have designed there own variety.  Everyone and there grandma makes one.  For work we shot my boss' colt l&e, was a nice gun to shoot.  Little recoil, easy saftey and stuff like that.  Personally never shot a ak, although i plan to get out to the range one day and hopefully try someones out.  Also tried to do a search and these are the only links i found so was hoping could gather a little more info.
     And saw the saiga 7.62 at OGC for like $399, thought it was pretty cheap for a AK so was thinking of picking that up and trying it out.  At that price if i dont like it i can always turn around and sell it and i wont be breaking the bank.  Anyone have experience with the Saigas?

http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=753.0

http://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=196.0

BananaClip

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 07:57:38 PM »
Saiga's are cool... I'm thinking that the $399 Saiga's are unconverted with the trigger way back with the "sporting" style stock...

If converted to pistol grip it will require a 922r compliance make over ::)

Everyone I know that bought an AK couldn't stop buying them... It's like a tattoo, once you put one, you can't stop... ;D

Plus for the price, depending which one you buy, it's a lot cheaper than a top quality AR....

My peeps told me that after I buy an AR I'll never look back at the AK...

After my second AK I bought a piston driven AR.... after that, 2 more AK's :crazy:

Yes, I love the AK :love: In fact I just ordered another one today when I got home from work from centerfiresystems ;)

So it's not as accurate as an AR, whoopdy doo... I gave my wife the AR....

The LWRC seems to be the AR of choice but I'm not sure...

The Arsenal seems to be the AK of choice....

I couldn't get just one AK myself when I first started.... GOOD LUCK and have fun on your journey for thee "ASSAULT" rifle of your choice

I go by what I want and not what I need...If I need it I wont want it and get bored quickly :thumbsup:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"- Genesis1:1 KJV

"The Truth Shall Set You Free"

"Once Blind But Now i See"

bass monkey

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 08:27:39 PM »
Could you elborate on the "sporting stock"?

And if im not mistaken, although i could be greatly, the Arsenal was still around that price, $500 range.  Its the one the guy pulled off the shelf and showed to me.

What did you order if you dont mind sharing?

BananaClip

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 08:43:40 PM »
When the Saigas are imported, they must be in that "sporting" style config.. Sporting meaning for hunting....  Kinda like how shotgun stocks look like...
Once you change that config or move the trigger forward and put a pistol grip you gotta make it 922r compliant or for a better term, buy American stuff and violate the original Russian parts that are on there... :P

As you can see in the pic below, the trigger is farther away from the mag well on the top unconverted rifle.. ;)

The AK I ordered is not by standards the prettiest AK but that's the beauty of the AK, it's uglyness.. :love:
I ordered an AMD65 from centerfiresystems for $399...

My goal is to get an AK from each country...some are almost impossible but it's all about the hunt :D

If thats an Arsenal for $500 grab it! :o

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 08:50:56 PM by BananaClip »
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"- Genesis1:1 KJV

"The Truth Shall Set You Free"

"Once Blind But Now i See"

hvybarrels

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2011, 09:14:48 PM »
you can get saigas in .223 and .308
The most effective prison is the one where you can’t see the bars.

Kingkeoni

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2011, 09:49:50 PM »
you can get saigas in .223 and .308

And 7.62x39
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Kingkeoni

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2011, 09:59:17 PM »
Bass monkey, there are three AK fanatics that I know of on this forum.

Bananaclip,  kavaboy and myself.

I, like bananaclip, own both AK's and AR's.

I definitely enjoy shooting my AK's much better than my AR's.

Not that theres anything wrong with an AR. They're excellent weapons that have served their intended purpose for a long time. The amount of manufacturers serve as a testament to the popularity and usefulness of this platform.

To me though, there's a mystical attraction to the AK.  I like the rawness of it. The kick it, drop it, throw it in the mud and then pick it up and shoot it attitude it has.

I think you'll be happy with any platform you choose, and if you're like most of the shooters I know, you'll buy both just because.

If you ever want to shoot an AK, I'll volunteer one of mine. You provide the ammo and blast away all you want. I warn you though... Shoot my AK and you'll be stricken with the Kalishnikov virus.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Pit808

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2011, 10:05:29 PM »
"    Needs are pretty much to have a semi-auto rifle handy, maybe even for SD or something along those lines.  Dont plan to shoot past 100yrds(i think). anything farther then that i plan to get a .308 bolt action or something."

That's got AK all over it. 

If you are gonna keep it iron sights, don't care if your shot groups can't be covered with a coin, have no plans on reloading, buy a AK and a case of steel cased Russian ammo and be happy.

My advice (IMHO) get a AK with magazine dimples, they usually have less mag wobble than receivers with plates tack welded to the inside (and cheaper than milled).  Two, check to make sure the front sight is straight and not leaning one side or the other (if you can eyeball that it's crooked, it's too much)

I haven't played with any of the US made versions, but I can say my stamped Polish kit (not century "US milled" but call it polish) and romy G have been great.

Oh and watch out for wood stocked yugo m70B1's. They are built solid, but the stock shape wacks you right in the cheek. If you ever shoot one you'll know what I mean. I sold mine because of that. I wouldn't mind an under folder though...

 :shaka:
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 10:27:11 PM by Pit808 »
chitty chitty bang bang.......

Tom_G

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2011, 10:29:21 PM »
    Needs are pretty much to have a semi-auto rifle handy, maybe even for SD or something along those lines.  Dont plan to shoot past 100yrds(i think). anything farther then that i plan to get a .308 bolt action or something.

Dude, rethink.  I regularly hit targets at over 200 yards with an SKS shooting 7.62x39 milsup ammo, with a lever action .357, even with a semi-auto Hi Point 9mm.  You don't need a "target rifle" until you're serious about either MOA groups or hitting minute-of-bad-guy at 300+ yards; and even then, any rifle in decent shape with decent ballistics can do the job. 

And, I hate to tell you, both AR and AK are gas operated.  There are differences in the recoil systems between a Stoner (AR) design and a Kalisnikov (AK) design, but to classify one as "gas" and not the other is missing a pretty fundamental part of the picture.  Both work because they tap gasses from the barrel.

The Saiga is a nice gun, and personally, I plan to own one some day.  I prefer them to an AK.  However, in truth, the operating system of a Saiga IS AK.  They just mounted an AK rifle in a Monte Carlo stock and moved the trigger.  They were popular when AK rifles were banned, but the big deal was to buy a Saiga then convert it back to its AK roots.

Go to the range.  Shoot an AK.  Shoot an AR.  Shoot a Saiga.  Shoot an SKS.  Shoot an M4.  Heck, break out of the mold a little bit and shoot an M1 carbine.  Shoot a Garand.  Shoot an M1A.  Shoot one of those numbers I can never remember that's another semi-auto in .308.  Spend a few months just visiting the range, trying other people's rifles.  Come out to the HRA fun shoots, which are designed to let you do exactly that.  Then you'll have a better idea of what you want.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Growler67

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2011, 11:25:26 PM »
The basic differences you've discovered are correct.  Some more details in the differences are:

Piston actions weigh more than Direct Impingement (DI) or what you refer to as "gas".  Technically they are both "gas" operated, just in different ways.  The Piston system whether AK or AR (yes, they are available for the AR as well) takes some of the gas produced by the discharge of the round and uses it to drive a piston to cycle the action.  With a DI system, the basic premise is the same.  Syphoning some of the discharge gas to cycle the action but the gas flows via a tube directly to cycle the action by mating with the Bolt Carrier Group (BCG), also known specifically as the "Stoner Action" named after Mr. Stoner who invented it.  So if weight is a significant consideration, a DI system will generally weigh less than a piston system.

As far as the generalities regarding tolerances, the AK is a looser tolerance in general because the parts are stamped rather than machined with a few exceptions (Romanian milled receivers for instance).  It also allows for dirt and grit to enter the weapon while it still being able to cycle and function.  Still, it has a combat effective range of 350 meters.  In general, the AR platform is forged or milled and so the tolerances are machined to tighter specs.  Yes that means if fouled by grit and debris it can prevent proper cycling and funtion.  It has a combat effective range of 300 meters.  Both will do their part if the shooter does his/hers.

As far as brand names go, there are fanboi's for every one.  Do your homework and ask around and with ALL the options available these days, you can get whatever you want.  If you want to customize it (either one, AK or AR), there are more options available with the AR than there are with the AK.

For maintenance and cleaning, piston actions are easier to clean, but have more parts (inherant with the system).  DI requires more effort to clean but has a few less parts to maintain.  Virtually even though with the AR you can get a chrome BCG to make cleaning quicker and easier.

If you are a lefty , the AR has options to make it more accomodating where the AK isn't quite so.  If you want something a little different you can get side charging upper receivers with your AR (like I did wih mine from ASA).  There are ambidextrous charging handles as an option for AK's and there are also vendors that offer ambidextrous controls for AR's as well; i.e. selector lever, EBR's and mag reease buttons.

I can't speak for what is available in Hawaii as far as ammo goes, but on the mainland there is a greater variety in 5.56/.223 ammo in bullet weights, manufacturers, bullet types and prices compared to 7.62.  Sight, magazines, barrel lengths and optic options are also of greater variety for the AR's over the AK's.  Though time will tell given the growing popularity of the AK's how many more options will become available.

Either will meet AND exceed your present "perceived" needs for the weapon.  Price point will depend on a whole different set of variable and I'm not in the islands at the moment so I don't feel terribly qualified to comment other than to say that whichever you choose, you will be happy with.  There is plenty of information on both on this and many other gun forums and any or all of your questions can be answered before you buy as well as after.......you just gotta ask.

Oh yeah..........

Practice does NOT make perfect. Perfection is an Ideal and thus cannot exist in the real world. To seek perfection is to set yourself up for failure. Instead, strive for Excellence. Excellence is an attainable goal - Coach George Yamamoto, Mililani High School, RIP

2aHawaii

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Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 05:41:46 AM »
Has anyone else noticed that the price for AKs has gotten totally absurd while the price of ARs has dropped substantially. The only AK I would think of getting right now would be a Saiga and do the conversion myself. That's the fun stuff anyway.

Check out the price for Saigas at J&G Sales  :o Makes me want to order a couple few more.
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

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sirkaiks

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 07:25:14 AM »
bass monkey

just do yourself a favor and buy both :thumbsup:

first i bought an AR, and with the unlimitted amounts of mods you can do it's a cool gun to have.  But like King said, there is something about the AK's ruggedness that has some kind of appeal to it.  So i bought a WASR 10/63, probably rated as the bottom of the line AK, took it to the range straight outa the box, with all the caked up grease crap inside the gun (not recommended) and it shot like a champ!  I like the feel of the power, and honestly like the look!  And if you saw an arsenal for 500 then im kinda salty cause that's what i paid for the WASR. :shaka:

GZire

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 09:22:51 AM »
Bass monkey, there are three AK fanatics that I know of on this forum.

Bananaclip,  kavaboy and myself.....................

Commies!!!!


Anyhow with regards to the AK, I would recommend you looking into a Galil clone if you are interested in the AK.  There are several improvements over your standard AK, but basically it's still an AK.  Sights are better, charging handle is modified, and potentially the receiver may be milled versus stamped.  It's going to cost more, but if ever I decided to get an AK/AK based variant, it would be a Galil.

For AR's I do prefer the pistons despite the weight, because they are just so much easier to clean.

BananaClip

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 10:24:17 AM »
The Galil, Israel's version of the AK is like a mash up between an AR and an AK.. A milled AK in 223..
They usually go for around $550-$600... Thats an awesome variant!
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"- Genesis1:1 KJV

"The Truth Shall Set You Free"

"Once Blind But Now i See"

bass monkey

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 10:31:31 AM »
I think I just going buy ammo and shoot all of your guys guns first!!!

GZire

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2011, 04:22:38 PM »
^^^GZ has no AK's, but has AR's.  GZ also has HK's.

KingK has everything else.

astroboy

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 12:52:07 PM »
Add me to the list of AK junkies. AK's are so very addicting.

Kingkeoni

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 12:53:47 PM »
Add me to the list of AK junkies. AK's are so very addicting.


Velcome, comrade
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

fstbckgt

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 01:58:14 AM »
The Galil, Israel's version of the AK is like a mash up between an AR and an AK.. A milled AK in 223..
They usually go for around $550-$600... Thats an awesome variant!

Any idea if the .223 Galil clones are as reliable as the AK? I've been considering one for my first rifle purchase along with the AR, AK. I noticed one at OGC the last time I was there, I'll have to inspect it when I stop by to pick up my pistol magazines.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 02:04:55 AM by fstbckgt »

BananaClip

Re: Rifle differences
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 06:16:38 AM »
They are built by Century, so it's hard to say from one rifle to another, it's hit or miss... I've heard that Century has clean their acts up but hard to say...
 
I can't imagine buying a Galil or "Golani Sporter" for $600 and it stove piping, jamming or malfunctioning because of poor gunsmithing on Century's part... :(

Has anyone ever asked about return policy at any of the gunshop's? I know I haven't yet.. It's probably a good habit... :-\

What I've done with Century rifles were racking the bolt a few times and checking visually if everything is "straight"....

Even gunsmiths know that the ultimate test is too test fire, but I don't think they'll let us test fire anything... ;D

That's like trying on underwear than giving it back cuz it doesn't fit right... :rofl:
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"- Genesis1:1 KJV

"The Truth Shall Set You Free"

"Once Blind But Now i See"