Im lazy.
Id rather get in my nice air conditioned car by myself in my own private space than go to a train station not within a block of my residence. Who wants to walk, and sit in a white box with other people? Besides I spent a lot on my car with rims that I should be able to enjoy it. I want other people to take the rail so I can cruise in my car. Like Ludacris said, "move,get out my way..."

Like Ludacris said, "move,get out my way..."

WTF???

WTF???

Clean version.

Do you think the bus system expansion would make a big dent? If someone isn't going to go from bus to train to bus then they aren't going to go from bus to bus to bus either. The bus also has limitations, such as driver error and they still get screwed by traffic. Busses don't offer the speed that a rail system can, mainly because of traffic. Now I am not knocking the bus system, but I think its limitations mean it wont be able to fully address future traffic issues.  Both have their advantages and disadvantages and I don't think one could ever completely replace the other.

Ultimately, whether we build a rail or even triple the capability of the bus system, the public mindset has to change in order for them to become effective. Forcing a mindset change would be difficult but I think the ever increasing population means it will happen sooner or later if for no other reason than traffic is so bad or the cost of having a car is so expensive.

My issue when it comes to the rail is all the fishiness behind the curtains, not the actual idea of a train system itself. The ever expanding budget is inexcusable. Every time bones are found it seems to add millions to the cost of construction alone! Gotta wonder if the contracts were written poorly.

There doesn't need to be a Bus system expansion.  The Bus as-is is already a very good mass transit system.

What is need are improvements to the on grade streets so certain key intersections can become off grade (one up higher & one down lower leading to reduced wait times and gridlock).  This in and of itself will help to reduce gridlock (think the Piikoi/Beretania area & the Vineyard on-ramp..........this would pay massively and would be extremely cost effective).

Again you missed my point about the BRT system.  This changes The Bus from a mass transit to a rapid transit system.  This means that they have their own dedicated lanes.  This would help to reduce times for ridership.  As far as their being driver error...........come on man that's grasping at straws.  You don't think Rail will also have issues too (and those are completely new issues that we have no experience with since it's a brand new system)?

Regarding changing how people think.  No we don't people already use Rail.  Again it's not about changing that perspective it's about making it convenient enough so it makes sense.  Again this means density around the Rail line.  This is how and why Rail works.

As far as finding bones adding cost.  It happens but the impact can be reduced by having good up front surveys of the areas under construction and having pre-determined ways to address issues as they come up.  I can guarantee you this..........it's not the artifacts and iwi that are adding the bulk of the cost to the project.  It's poor planning, Government waste, stupid reporting requirements, overall lack of accountability..............in other words it's a typical Government project.


I realize that you feel strongly about your opinions, but you should realize my background is in Civil Engineering, so I studies this in college.  I am in construction so I do this on a daily basis.  As a kid I used The Bus quite a bit to get back home from school in town.  I used to support Rail when it first came out but after I had a chance to look at the supporting (or lack thereof) documents I changed my mind.  Should say something to you that someone in my position who would benefit directly financially from this project does not support it............................

There doesn't need to be a Bus system expansion.  The Bus as-is is already a very good mass transit system.

What is need are improvements to the on grade streets so certain key intersections can become off grade (one up higher & one down lower leading to reduced wait times and gridlock).  This in and of itself will help to reduce gridlock (think the Piikoi/Beretania area & the Vineyard on-ramp..........this would pay massively and would be extremely cost effective).

Again you missed my point about the BRT system.  This changes The Bus from a mass transit to a rapid transit system.  This means that they have their own dedicated lanes.  This would help to reduce times for ridership.  As far as their being driver error...........come on man that's grasping at straws.  You don't think Rail will also have issues too (and those are completely new issues that we have no experience with since it's a brand new system)?

Regarding changing how people think.  No we don't people already use Rail.  Again it's not about changing that perspective it's about making it convenient enough so it makes sense.  Again this means density around the Rail line.  This is how and why Rail works.

As far as finding bones adding cost.  It happens but the impact can be reduced by having good up front surveys of the areas under construction and having pre-determined ways to address issues as they come up.  I can guarantee you this..........it's not the artifacts and iwi that are adding the bulk of the cost to the project.  It's poor planning, Government waste, stupid reporting requirements, overall lack of accountability..............in other words it's a typical Government project.


I realize that you feel strongly about your opinions, but you should realize my background is in Civil Engineering, so I studies this in college.  I am in construction so I do this on a daily basis.  As a kid I used The Bus quite a bit to get back home from school in town.  I used to support Rail when it first came out but after I had a chance to look at the supporting (or lack thereof) documents I changed my mind.  Should say something to you that someone in my position who would benefit directly financially from this project does not support it............................

G,

Coming from someone who also has financially benefitted from the rail and has not supported it from the beginning, I have to say you have said everything that have been saying all along but a lot more eloquently than I have. There are two things that I would like to add based on my experience in building the LA Rail system.

First thing is inadequate parking. LA Rail came up with the Park and Ride concept but then didn't provide the parking needed for this to work. What they did in essence is put more people back in their cars. Imagine driving to the Park and Ride lot and cruising the lot for 5 or 10 minutes and having to go ahead and get onto the freeway and fight traffic because you couldn't find a place to park your car. They also didn't count on people parking a second vehicle at the destination station because no bus ran near their destination. What they did in reaction to that was to close the lots at night and tow any car left in the lots. Those same people went back to driving to work everyday. Our rail stations have inadequate parking space for the predicted ridership. All this is going to do is alienate the ridership that would consider riding the rail but would not be convenient enough for them to make that leap.

The second item we did in SoCal that I feel was cost effective and worth every penny was massive widening and double decking projects. We have similar circumstances here in Hawaii as LA has. Only difference is that LA identified the areas that the rail would benefit the most. And they built rail lines to service these areas. Unfortunately, no one here planned (nor seemed to care) that the areas that rail would benefit most were worthy of having rail service those areas. And after all that money was spent building the LA Rail system they realized that the rail did not reduce congestion as predicted. And here it is 20 years later and they just finished massive widening projects in LA and OC because of the lack of ridership.

There doesn't need to be a Bus system expansion.  The Bus as-is is already a very good mass transit system.

What is need are improvements to the on grade streets so certain key intersections can become off grade (one up higher & one down lower leading to reduced wait times and gridlock).  This in and of itself will help to reduce gridlock (think the Piikoi/Beretania area & the Vineyard on-ramp..........this would pay massively and would be extremely cost effective).

Again you missed my point about the BRT system.  This changes The Bus from a mass transit to a rapid transit system.  This means that they have their own dedicated lanes.  This would help to reduce times for ridership.  As far as their being driver error...........come on man that's grasping at straws.  You don't think Rail will also have issues too (and those are completely new issues that we have no experience with since it's a brand new system)?

Regarding changing how people think.  No we don't people already use Rail.  Again it's not about changing that perspective it's about making it convenient enough so it makes sense.  Again this means density around the Rail line.  This is how and why Rail works.

As far as finding bones adding cost.  It happens but the impact can be reduced by having good up front surveys of the areas under construction and having pre-determined ways to address issues as they come up.  I can guarantee you this..........it's not the artifacts and iwi that are adding the bulk of the cost to the project.  It's poor planning, Government waste, stupid reporting requirements, overall lack of accountability..............in other words it's a typical Government project.


I realize that you feel strongly about your opinions, but you should realize my background is in Civil Engineering, so I studies this in college.  I am in construction so I do this on a daily basis.  As a kid I used The Bus quite a bit to get back home from school in town.  I used to support Rail when it first came out but after I had a chance to look at the supporting (or lack thereof) documents I changed my mind.  Should say something to you that someone in my position who would benefit directly financially from this project does not support it............................

I respect your stance and educational background supporting such stance.

I support A rail system though I do not necessarily support all aspects of this rail system. Like I said, I do have my criticisms of this system. For example, did you know they budgeted millions of dollars just for art for the rail stations?

I don't think considering driver error is grasping at straws, at least not any more than worrying about the point of natural disasters and people not giving up their cars, which would still be an issue with the bus system you suggest.

Dedicated bus lanes sound like a decent idea, certainly would deal with the traffic issues and be cheaper to build. Not sure if it is more efficient though, would have to run a lot of numbers for amount of fuel used and staff needed among other things to truly say which is more efficient.

Your point on density is not lost on me, I know this I an important factor. However the question I have about that is once the density reaches the amount that is ideal for a rail system, how much harder and more expensive would it be to build it? Good city planning takes into account what is expected many years into the future.

Update

Front page headline estimates 5 more years and another billion dollars needed for rail. These aren't exactly "value added benefits", just funds needed to keep the original plan going.
Even the rail supporters should have saw this coming.

I sure did.

Update

Front page headline estimates 5 more years and another billion dollars needed for rail. These aren't exactly "value added benefits", just funds needed to keep the original plan going.
Even the rail supporters should have saw this coming.

I sure did.

They also said it was estimated to cost $100M a year to operate. Did I hear that correctly? That is what I heard. Ridiculous.

They also said it was estimated to cost $100M a year to operate. Did I hear that correctly? That is what I heard. Ridiculous.

"Ridiculous", but not "surprised", right? See: most state and federal taxpayer-funded agencies and programs.

I know this is not applicable but I just was reading about the LA Transportation Authority. For bus and rail combined it costs LA $8.50/ride. They charge the rider an average of $1.20/ride. I don't know which costs more to operate per mile? They don't break it out from the sites that I saw.

I hope we don't have this much disparity in our mass transit system. Otherwise we will be getting huge tax increases and the C&C could go bankrupt.

"Ridiculous", but not "surprised", right? See: most state and federal taxpayer-funded agencies and programs.

I don't believe it is going to ONLY cost $100M per year. I think it will be much more than that. But what do I know?

average rail cost per mile/US- $251 million
cost per mile estimate@$10 billion total-$500 million

i hear the sound of rising taxes.

Update

Front page headline estimates 5 more years and another billion dollars needed for rail. These aren't exactly "value added benefits", just funds needed to keep the original plan going.
Even the rail supporters should have saw this coming.

I sure did.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. 

They also said it was estimated to cost $100M a year to operate. Did I hear that correctly? That is what I heard. Ridiculous.

This is also a BS errr I mean conservative estimate.  This has nothing but a huge scam since inception and anyone who has believed rail to be anything other than a scam has been duped by those who control power and money in Hawaii. 

i hear the sound of rising taxes.

Keep those taxes in Honolulu.  No way should other islands or even north Oahu pay for something they get no "benefit" from.

Keep those taxes in Honolulu.  No way should other islands or even north Oahu pay for something they get no "benefit" from.

Please forgive me, but I believe you've completely misunderstood the nature of taxation, as it actually exists. Just out of curiosity, what would you estimate is the percentage of taxes you pay that go to programs/agencies/people that you derive some direct (okay, even "indirect") benefit from?

Please forgive me, but I believe you've completely misunderstood the nature of taxation, as it actually exists. Just out of curiosity, what would you estimate is the percentage of taxes you pay that go to programs/agencies/people that you derive some direct (okay, even "indirect") benefit from?

ANSWER: nada and zip percent.

I was listening to the HNN news this morning in my truck on the way to work at 5:00am. They were discussing Hanabusa leaving and that they were considering changing the route the rail was going to go. Instead of going down Dillingham they were talking about it going down Nimitz instead.

The latest rail reports I have heard have all said that the latest estimates for the total cost of the rail will probably exceed $8B. But then Grace Lee said something quite different this morning. I can't remember her exact words so I have to paraphrase from memory (scary).    But she said something to the effect that the rail is going to cost much more than $8B if they decide to build it all the way out to Ala Moana. Wait, are they saying that the previous weeks reports of the total cost of $8B for building the rail didn't have it going all the way out to Ala Moana? Does that $8B only buy enough track out to the stadium? If correct then if it costs $8B for half of the rail then the total cost will probably be in the range of $16B.

I am sure she probably misspoke this morning. Or more likely I probably misunderstood what she said. Did anyone else here listen to or watch HNN news at 5:00am this morning?

I hope enough people ride the rail so I can enjoy a nice drive home before and after work...

I hope enough people ride the rail so I can enjoy a nice drive home before and after work...

Maybe after the zombie apocalypse, but not after rail.

According to the news this rail is now coasting the tax payers 10 BILLION. One of the issues is that the concrete is cracking and in some places the pillars are already sinking (settling as they call it) so they have put shims between the pillar and rail. I have on a couple of accounts spoke with some of the rail workers and what they say is "This rail is a joke" The estimated cost is going to exceed 10 BILLION and what does that mean for the people of Hawaii? Our taxes go up so we the Hawaiian people pay for the rail and our pay will remain the same. Not to mention the rebar they bought for the rail was bought way to early and is now rusting. Do you think they will clean the rust off the rebar before applying concrete to this metal? According to the workers....NO! The rust will not allow the rebar to adhere to the concrete causing no support. No support, and in a few years concrete starts to crack Hawaii is 10+Billion in the hole because of this rail, how fast do you think they are going to fix the crack? I tell you this I bet they raise our taxes again before they fix the cracks and the shifting of pillars. Rant over.