Here is Trump's tax plan.

It's as detailed as it can get without being overly tedious for the average person.

In case anyone overlooked this.

I am posting it because in the other thread, it seems some folks feel Trump has given no policy details.

It's understandable that Trump's factual information is easily overlooked because of all the media noise about him.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/tax-reform

And just because this happens to be a firearms related forum (LOL) here are the details also for his gun policies:

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/second-amendment-rights

Heck, why not spoon-feed the whole burrito while I am at it.

Here is the gun plan:

PROTECTING OUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS WILL MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

Donald J. Trump on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

The Second Amendment to our Constitution is clear. The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed upon. Period.

The Second Amendment guarantees a fundamental right that belongs to all law-abiding Americans. The Constitution doesn’t create that right – it ensures that the government can’t take it away. Our Founding Fathers knew, and our Supreme Court has upheld, that the Second Amendment’s purpose is to guarantee our right to defend ourselves and our families. This is about self-defense, plain and simple.

It’s been said that the Second Amendment is America’s first freedom. That’s because the Right to Keep and Bear Arms protects all our other rights. We are the only country in the world that has a Second Amendment. Protecting that freedom is imperative. Here’s how we will do that:

Enforce The Laws On The Books

We need to get serious about prosecuting violent criminals. The Obama administration’s record on that is abysmal. Violent crime in cities like Baltimore, Chicago and many others is out of control. Drug dealers and gang members are given a slap on the wrist and turned loose on the street. This needs to stop.

Several years ago there was a tremendous program in Richmond, Virginia called Project Exile. It said that if a violent felon uses a gun to commit a crime, you will be prosecuted in federal court and go to prison for five years – no parole or early release. Obama’s former Attorney General, Eric Holder, called that a “cookie cutter” program. That’s ridiculous. I call that program a success. Murders committed with guns in Richmond decreased by over 60% when Project Exile was in place – in the first two years of the program alone, 350 armed felons were taken off the street.

Why does that matter to law-abiding gun owners? Because they’re the ones who anti-gun politicians and the media blame when criminals misuse guns. We need to bring back and expand programs like Project Exile and get gang members and drug dealers off the street. When we do, crime will go down and our cities and communities will be safer places to live.

Here’s another important way to fight crime – empower law-abiding gun owners to defend themselves. Law enforcement is great, they do a tremendous job, but they can’t be everywhere all of the time. Our personal protection is ultimately up to us. That’s why I’m a gun owner, that’s why I have a concealed carry permit, and that’s why tens of millions of Americans have concealed carry permits as well. It’s just common sense. To make America great again, we’re going to go after criminals and put the law back on the side of the law-abiding.

Fix Our Broken Mental Health System

Let’s be clear about this. Our mental health system is broken. It needs to be fixed. Too many politicians have ignored this problem for too long.

All of the tragic mass murders that occurred in the past several years have something in common – there were red flags that were ignored. We can’t allow that to continue. We need to expand treatment programs, because most people with mental health problems aren’t violent, they just need help. But for those who are violent, a danger to themselves or others, we need to get them off the street before they can terrorize our communities. This is just common sense.

And why does this matter to law-abiding gun owners? Once again, because they get blamed by anti-gun politicians, gun control groups and the media for the acts of deranged madmen. When one of these tragedies occurs, we can count on two things: one, that opponents of gun rights will immediately exploit it to push their political agenda; and two, that none of their so-called “solutions” would have prevented the tragedy in the first place. They’ve even admitted it.

We need real solutions to address real problems. Not grandstanding or political agendas.

Defend The Rights of Law-Abiding Gun Owners

GUN AND MAGAZINE BANS. Gun and magazine bans are a total failure. That’s been proven every time it’s been tried. Opponents of gun rights try to come up with scary sounding phrases like “assault weapons”, “military-style weapons” and “high capacity magazines” to confuse people. What they’re really talking about are popular semi-automatic rifles and standard magazines that are owned by tens of millions of Americans. Law-abiding people should be allowed to own the firearm of their choice. The government has no business dictating what types of firearms good, honest people are allowed to own.

BACKGROUND CHECKS. There has been a national background check system in place since 1998. Every time a person buys a gun from a federally licensed gun dealer – which is the overwhelming majority of all gun purchases – they go through a federal background check. Study after study has shown that very few criminals are stupid enough to try and pass a background check – they get their guns from friends/family members or by stealing them. So the overwhelming majority of people who go through background checks are law-abiding gun owners. When the system was created, gun owners were promised that it would be instant, accurate and fair. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case today. Too many states are failing to put criminal and mental health records into the system – and it should go without saying that a system’s only going to be as effective as the records that are put into it. What we need to do is fix the system we have and make it work as intended. What we don’t need to do is expand a broken system.

NATIONAL RIGHT TO CARRY. The right of self-defense doesn’t stop at the end of your driveway. That’s why I have a concealed carry permit and why tens of millions of Americans do too. That permit should be valid in all 50 states. A driver’s license works in every state, so it’s common sense that a concealed carry permit should work in every state. If we can do that for driving – which is a privilege, not a right – then surely we can do that for concealed carry, which is a right, not a privilege.

MILITARY BASES AND RECRUITING CENTERS. Banning our military from carrying firearms on bases and at recruiting centers is ridiculous. We train our military how to safely and responsibly use firearms, but our current policies leave them defenseless. To make America great again, we need a strong military. To have a strong military, we need to allow them to defend themselves.

And the tax plan (formatting is better on his website);

TAX REFORM THAT WILL MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

The Goals Of Donald J. Trump’s Tax Plan

Too few Americans are working, too many jobs have been shipped overseas, and too many middle class families cannot make ends meet. This tax plan directly meets these challenges with four simple goals:

Tax relief for middle class Americans: In order to achieve the American dream, let people keep more money in their pockets and increase after-tax wages.
Simplify the tax code to reduce the headaches Americans face in preparing their taxes and let everyone keep more of their money.
Grow the American economy by discouraging corporate inversions, adding a huge number of new jobs, and making America globally competitive again.
Doesn’t add to our debt and deficit, which are already too large.
The Trump Tax Plan Achieves These Goals

If you are single and earn less than $25,000, or married and jointly earn less than $50,000, you will not owe any income tax. That removes nearly 75 million households – over 50% – from the income tax rolls. They get a new one page form to send the IRS saying, “I win,” those who would otherwise owe income taxes will save an average of nearly $1,000 each.
All other Americans will get a simpler tax code with four brackets – 0%, 10%, 20% and 25% – instead of the current seven. This new tax code eliminates the marriage penalty and the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) while providing the lowest tax rate since before World War II.
No business of any size, from a Fortune 500 to a mom and pop shop to a freelancer living job to job, will pay more than 15% of their business income in taxes. This lower rate makes corporate inversions unnecessary by making America’s tax rate one of the best in the world.
No family will have to pay the death tax. You earned and saved that money for your family, not the government. You paid taxes on it when you earned it.
The Trump Tax Plan Is Revenue Neutral

The Trump tax cuts are fully paid for by:

Reducing or eliminating most deductions and loopholes available to the very rich.
A one-time deemed repatriation of corporate cash held overseas at a significantly discounted 10% tax rate, followed by an end to the deferral of taxes on corporate income earned abroad.
Reducing or eliminating corporate loopholes that cater to special interests, as well as deductions made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rate on corporations and business income. We will also phase in a reasonable cap on the deductibility of business interest expenses.

DETAILS OF DONALD J. TRUMP’S TAX PLAN

America needs a bold, simple and achievable plan based on conservative economic principles. This plan does that with needed tax relief for all Americans, especially the working poor and middle class, pro-growth tax reform for all sizes of businesses, and fiscally responsible steps to ensure this plan does not add to our enormous debt and deficit.

This plan simplifies the tax code by taking nearly 50% of current filers off the income tax rolls entirely and reducing the number of tax brackets from seven to four for everyone else. This plan also reduces or eliminates loopholes used by the very rich and special interests made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rates on individuals and companies.

The Trump Tax Plan: A Simpler Tax Code For All Americans

When the income tax was first introduced, just one percent of Americans had to pay it. It was never intended as a tax most Americans would pay. The Trump plan eliminates the income tax for over 73 million households. 42 million households that currently file complex forms to determine they don’t owe any income taxes will now file a one page form saving them time, stress, uncertainty and an average of $110 in preparation costs. Over 31 million households get the same simplification and keep on average nearly $1,000 of their hard-earned money.

For those Americans who will still pay the income tax, the tax rates will go from the current seven brackets to four simpler, fairer brackets that eliminate the marriage penalty and the AMT while providing the lowest tax rate since before World War II:

(see his website for better formatting)

Income Tax Rate   Long Term Cap Gains/ Dividends Rate   Single Filers   Married Filers   Heads of Household
0%   0%   $0 to $25,000   $0 to $50,000   $0 to $37,500
10%   0%   $25,001 to $50,000   $50,001 to $100,000   $37,501 to $75,000
20%   15%   $50,001 to $150,000   $100,001 to $300,000   $75,001 to $225,000
25%   20%   $150,001 and up   $300,001 and up   $225,001 and up
With this huge reduction in rates, many of the current exemptions and deductions will become unnecessary or redundant. Those within the 10% bracket will keep all or most of their current deductions. Those within the 20% bracket will keep more than half of their current deductions. Those within the 25% bracket will keep fewer deductions. Charitable giving and mortgage interest deductions will remain unchanged for all taxpayers.

Simplifying the tax code and cutting every American’s taxes will boost consumer spending, encourage savings and investment, and maximize economic growth.

Business Tax Reform To Encourage Jobs And Spur Economic Growth

Too many companies – from great American brands to innovative startups – are leaving America, either directly or through corporate inversions. The Democrats want to outlaw inversions, but that will never work. Companies leaving is not the disease, it is the symptom. Politicians in Washington have let America fall from the best corporate tax rate in the industrialized world in the 1980’s (thanks to Ronald Reagan) to the worst rate in the industrialized world. That is unacceptable. Under the Trump plan, America will compete with the world and win by cutting the corporate tax rate to 15%, taking our rate from one of the worst to one of the best.

This lower tax rate cannot be for big business alone; it needs to help the small businesses that are the true engine of our economy. Right now, freelancers, sole proprietors, unincorporated small businesses and pass-through entities are taxed at the high personal income tax rates. This treatment stifles small businesses. It also stifles tax reform because efforts to reduce loopholes and deductions available to the very rich and special interests end up hitting small businesses and job creators as well. The Trump plan addresses this challenge head on with a new business income tax rate within the personal income tax code that matches the 15% corporate tax rate to help these businesses, entrepreneurs and freelancers grow and prosper.

These lower rates will provide a tremendous stimulus for the economy – significant GDP growth, a huge number of new jobs and an increase in after-tax wages for workers.

The Trump Tax Plan Ends The Unfair Death Tax

The death tax punishes families for achieving the American dream. Therefore, the Trump plan eliminates the death tax.

The Trump Tax Plan Is Fiscally Responsible

The Trump tax cuts are fully paid for by:

Reducing or eliminating deductions and loopholes available to the very rich, starting by steepening the curve of the Personal Exemption Phaseout and the Pease Limitation on itemized deductions. The Trump plan also phases out the tax exemption on life insurance interest for high-income earners, ends the current tax treatment of carried interest for speculative partnerships that do not grow businesses or create jobs and are not risking their own capital, and reduces or eliminates other loopholes for the very rich and special interests. These reductions and eliminations will not harm the economy or hurt the middle class. Because the Trump plan introduces a new business income rate within the personal income tax code, they will not harm small businesses either.
A one-time deemed repatriation of corporate cash held overseas at a significantly discounted 10% tax rate. Since we are making America’s corporate tax rate globally competitive, it is only fair that corporations help make that move fiscally responsible. U.S.-owned corporations have as much as $2.5 trillion in cash sitting overseas. Some companies have been leaving cash overseas as a tax maneuver. Under this plan, they can bring their cash home and put it to work in America while benefitting from the newly-lowered corporate tax rate that is globally competitive and no longer requires parking cash overseas. Other companies have cash overseas for specific business units or activities. They can leave that cash overseas, but they will still have to pay the one-time repatriation fee.
An end to the deferral of taxes on corporate income earned abroad. Corporations will no longer be allowed to defer taxes on income earned abroad, but the foreign tax credit will remain in place because no company should face double taxation.
Reducing or eliminating some corporate loopholes that cater to special interests, as well as deductions made unnecessary or redundant by the new lower tax rate on corporations and business income. We will also phase in a reasonable cap on the deductibility of business interest expenses.

AND just for the heck of it, his healthcare plan 

HEALTHCARE REFORM TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN

Since March of 2010, the American people have had to suffer under the incredible economic burden of the Affordable Care Act—Obamacare. This legislation, passed by totally partisan votes in the House and Senate and signed into law by the most divisive and partisan President in American history, has tragically but predictably resulted in runaway costs, websites that don’t work, greater rationing of care, higher premiums, less competition and fewer choices. Obamacare has raised the economic uncertainty of every single person residing in this country. As it appears Obamacare is certain to collapse of its own weight, the damage done by the Democrats and President Obama, and abetted by the Supreme Court, will be difficult to repair unless the next President and a Republican congress lead the effort to bring much-needed free market reforms to the healthcare industry.

But none of these positive reforms can be accomplished without Obamacare repeal. On day one of the Trump Administration, we will ask Congress to immediately deliver a full repeal of Obamacare.

However, it is not enough to simply repeal this terrible legislation. We will work with Congress to make sure we have a series of reforms ready for implementation that follow free market principles and that will restore economic freedom and certainty to everyone in this country. By following free market principles and working together to create sound public policy that will broaden healthcare access, make healthcare more affordable and improve the quality of the care available to all Americans.

Any reform effort must begin with Congress. Since Obamacare became law, conservative Republicans have been offering reforms that can be delivered individually or as part of more comprehensive reform efforts. In the remaining sections of this policy paper, several reforms will be offered that should be considered by Congress so that on the first day of the Trump Administration, we can start the process of restoring faith in government and economic liberty to the people.

Congress must act. Our elected representatives in the House and Senate must:

Completely repeal Obamacare. Our elected representatives must eliminate the individual mandate. No person should be required to buy insurance unless he or she wants to.
Modify existing law that inhibits the sale of health insurance across state lines. As long as the plan purchased complies with state requirements, any vendor ought to be able to offer insurance in any state. By allowing full competition in this market, insurance costs will go down and consumer satisfaction will go up.
Allow individuals to fully deduct health insurance premium payments from their tax returns under the current tax system. Businesses are allowed to take these deductions so why wouldn’t Congress allow individuals the same exemptions? As we allow the free market to provide insurance coverage opportunities to companies and individuals, we must also make sure that no one slips through the cracks simply because they cannot afford insurance. We must review basic options for Medicaid and work with states to ensure that those who want healthcare coverage can have it.
Allow individuals to use Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Contributions into HSAs should be tax-free and should be allowed to accumulate. These accounts would become part of the estate of the individual and could be passed on to heirs without fear of any death penalty. These plans should be particularly attractive to young people who are healthy and can afford high-deductible insurance plans. These funds can be used by any member of a family without penalty. The flexibility and security provided by HSAs will be of great benefit to all who participate.
Require price transparency from all healthcare providers, especially doctors and healthcare organizations like clinics and hospitals. Individuals should be able to shop to find the best prices for procedures, exams or any other medical-related procedure.
Block-grant Medicaid to the states. Nearly every state already offers benefits beyond what is required in the current Medicaid structure. The state governments know their people best and can manage the administration of Medicaid far better without federal overhead. States will have the incentives to seek out and eliminate fraud, waste and abuse to preserve our precious resources.
Remove barriers to entry into free markets for drug providers that offer safe, reliable and cheaper products. Congress will need the courage to step away from the special interests and do what is right for America. Though the pharmaceutical industry is in the private sector, drug companies provide a public service. Allowing consumers access to imported, safe and dependable drugs from overseas will bring more options to consumers.
The reforms outlined above will lower healthcare costs for all Americans. They are simply a place to start. There are other reforms that might be considered if they serve to lower costs, remove uncertainty and provide financial security for all Americans. And we must also take actions in other policy areas to lower healthcare costs and burdens. Enforcing immigration laws, eliminating fraud and waste and energizing our economy will relieve the economic pressures felt by every American. It is the moral responsibility of a nation’s government to do what is best for the people and what is in the interest of securing the future of the nation.

Providing healthcare to illegal immigrants costs us some $11 billion annually. If we were to simply enforce the current immigration laws and restrict the unbridled granting of visas to this country, we could relieve healthcare cost pressures on state and local governments.

To reduce the number of individuals needing access to programs like Medicaid and Children’s Health Insurance Program we will need to install programs that grow the economy and bring capital and jobs back to America. The best social program has always been a job – and taking care of our economy will go a long way towards reducing our dependence on public health programs.

Finally, we need to reform our mental health programs and institutions in this country. Families, without the ability to get the information needed to help those who are ailing, are too often not given the tools to help their loved ones. There are promising reforms being developed in Congress that should receive bi-partisan support.

To reform healthcare in America, we need a President who has the leadership skills, will and courage to engage the American people and convince Congress to do what is best for the country. These straightforward reforms, along with many others I have proposed throughout my campaign, will ensure that together we will Make America Great Again.

Here is Trump's tax plan.

It's as detailed as it can get without being overly tedious for the average person.

In case anyone overlooked this.

I am posting it because in the other thread, it seems some folks feel Trump has given no policy details.

It's understandable that Trump's factual information is easily overlooked because of all the media noise about him.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/tax-reform

And just because this happens to be a firearms related forum (LOL) here are the details also for his gun policies:

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/second-amendment-rights

If people were really interested in Trump's policies they would have searched them out and found out he really does have some stated policies. IMHO if people say he doesn't have any policies it is because they really don't care if he has any or not. Why else would these people repeat that he doesn't have any policies when the fact is he does? JMHO

If people were really interested in Trump's policies they would have searched them out and found out he really does have some stated policies. IMHO if people say he doesn't have any policies it is because they really don't care if he has any or not. Why else would these people repeat that he doesn't have any policies when the fact is he does? JMHO

True. But on the off chance people sincerely overlooked it, why not help Trump get just one more vote.

True. But on the off chance people sincerely overlooked it, why not help Trump get just one more vote.

Your a better man than I am!   

Your a better man than I am!   

LOL we have to do our part this year to go up against Hillary! 

LOL we have to do our part this year to go up against Hillary! 

Can't argue with that!!! 

His tax plan interests me and his gun plan sounds acceptable.

The criticism I have mentioned under his gun plan is how he talks about mental illness. He suggests it is broken and that politicians are ignoring it.

I don't know that I would suggest it is broken but I certainly don't think politicians are ignoring it. Politicians talk about it all the time, especially in context of gun control.

For starters, mental illness is a very complex issue and I think everyone wants to fix the problems but the reality is that there are either no solutions to some of the problems or that no one has figured them out yet. No one seems to really know how to deal with the issue in a way that preserves rights while effectively preventing mental illness related violence. Take the Sandy Hook shooter for example, it seems he may have had autism, but autism is a disease that is not associated with violence, quite the opposite in fact. How could anyone have seen this boy and known he would become violent? How would politicians addressing mental illness have prevented what he did?

Republicans often mention that they don't want guns in the hands of crazy people but they never seem to put forth any plans with specifics on how to achieve this. Its like saying we need to cure cancer but not taking any steps to do so. Republicans are also opposed to more funding for social services (generally speaking) but a lot of social services involve mental health recognition and treatment.
Democrats on the others hand do have more of a plan. More funding for mental illness programs and more to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, but they take it too far with too much restriction of rights without enough reason.

Now maybe this should be it's own topic but I am irritated at the statements of politicians of how we need to address mental illness as if no one is willing but everyone knows how do to it. In the end, these are just hollow statements

I look at it like how do we stop mentally unstable people from driving cars and running over pedestrians or smashing into other cars?

As for the mass shooting aspect, you can turn potentially 100 victims into just 1 victim (comparable with vehicular deaths) with open carry. Any of the university mass shootings would have significantly lower casualty rates had the shooter been stopped early.

In fact the shooter probably wouldn't even have started shooting, knowing his victims are not unarmed.

So, with number of casualties for guns comparable to cars, we can look at solutions for preventing the operation of any machine by a mentally unstable person, generally.

If people were really interested in Trump's policies they would have searched them out and found out he really does have some stated policies. IMHO if people say he doesn't have any policies it is because they really don't care if he has any or not. Why else would these people repeat that he doesn't have any policies when the fact is he does? JMHO

A lot of truth here, the fact of the matter is that they don't research the policies of those they support either. Witness the interviews with the clueless Hillary and Bernie supporters on Watters World and by Mark Dice on You Tube.

These people will spend more time researching a pair of pants they want to buy on Amazon than the positions of the person they will vote to put in the office of President.

This is why they become so confounded and infuriated when confronted with facts, it forces them to think beyond the next episode of the Kardashians and the fact they want nachos.

What does this say about the intellect of the average citizen?

His tax plan interests me and his gun plan sounds acceptable.

The criticism I have mentioned under his gun plan is how he talks about mental illness. He suggests it is broken and that politicians are ignoring it.

I don't know that I would suggest it is broken but I certainly don't think politicians are ignoring it. Politicians talk about it all the time, especially in context of gun control.

For starters, mental illness is a very complex issue and I think everyone wants to fix the problems but the reality is that there are either no solutions to some of the problems or that no one has figured them out yet. No one seems to really know how to deal with the issue in a way that preserves rights while effectively preventing mental illness related violence. Take the Sandy Hook shooter for example, it seems he may have had autism, but autism is a disease that is not associated with violence, quite the opposite in fact. How could anyone have seen this boy and known he would become violent? How would politicians addressing mental illness have prevented what he did?

Republicans often mention that they don't want guns in the hands of crazy people but they never seem to put forth any plans with specifics on how to achieve this. Its like saying we need to cure cancer but not taking any steps to do so. Republicans are also opposed to more funding for social services (generally speaking) but a lot of social services involve mental health recognition and treatment.
Democrats on the others hand do have more of a plan. More funding for mental illness programs and more to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, but they take it too far with too much restriction of rights without enough reason.

Now maybe this should be it's own topic but I am irritated at the statements of politicians of how we need to address mental illness as if no one is willing but everyone knows how do to it. In the end, these are just hollow statements

I submit that the real question isn't what is to be done about mental illness. That is a foregone conclusion, they should be locked up in an institution as long as they are a danger to society. They shouldn't be allowed to breed, as the surest predictor of mental illness we have is a family history of it. I have first hand experience with this in my wife's extended family.

No, I would say the real question is: Who decides what, or who, qualifies as mentally ill?

We, as gun owners, are considered by many on the left as "Mentally unstable" simply because we choose to exercise our 2nd amendment rights.  They would gladly see us locked away forever. Many people were declared "insane" in the past and committed to institutions, subjected to mind altering medications and even lobotomized when they were only guilty of being in the way of someone more powerful than themselves.

Abuse of this power, and a lack of a viable solution to prevent it, is what has brought us to the point we're at now.

Find the solution to that, and we can start taking care of the problem.

Yup, you said it. I always figured that the focus on mental illness can easily be abused later on, to label any "malcontents" as legally nuts.

China does it I'm sure, to journalists, etc. who do not toe the party line.

Mental illness exists independent of gun control but they do cross paths.

Edster, I do share your concern that the taking away of rights could be abused under the banner of addressing mental illness.

But my post really was more just my irritation over politicians continuously saying that no one wants to talk about mental illness but insisting they will.

Now where it comes to mental illness and guns crossing paths, I think we need to be a little pro active as a community and a political party. We need to brainstorm ways in which mental illness is addressed reasonably effectively and firearm rights are protected because if we don't then the democrats will and we know they wont be as kind to gun rights. As it stands now it just seems we say crazy people shouldn't have guns but reject any form that would actually take.

So what might be the first step we as a group could take to show we want to do soemthing? Support increased government spending on mental health programs?

Mental illness exists independent of gun control but they do cross paths.

Edster, I do share your concern that the taking away of rights could be abused under the banner of addressing mental illness.

But my post really was more just my irritation over politicians continuously saying that no one wants to talk about mental illness but insisting they will.

Now where it comes to mental illness and guns crossing paths, I think we need to be a little pro active as a community and a political party. We need to brainstorm ways in which mental illness is addressed reasonably effectively and firearm rights are protected because if we don't then the democrats will and we know they wont be as kind to gun rights. As it stands now it just seems we say crazy people shouldn't have guns but reject any form that would actually take.

So what might be the first step we as a group could take to show we want to do soemthing? Support increased government spending on mental health programs?[/b

Expecting a politician to do anything that's not in their self interest is a waste of time. In short, if you need a hot air balloon filled, call a politician, other than that they're useless. { See also "Bureaucrat" }

I suppose it would depend on what can be done. It can be treated, but not cured. Unless it's caused by an outside influence like drugs, there is no preventative measure to be taken other than not allowing known mental defectives to breed and create more. It's kind of like cancer, you can remove it from the body { society } or you can kill it in place and hope it doesn't come back, but it inevitably does. I don't support increasing government spending on anything normally, but in this case I would support bringing back mental institutions. There would have to be strict controls on the people administering such facilities but it would be better than having them running loose among us. For their sake as well as ours.

I think that this approach would take care of much of the problem regarding mental illness and guns, but we also have to realize that there never will be a "perfect" solution. Occasionally a crazy person will get their hands on a gun. This is just part of the price of a free society. Sometimes there simply is no proactive solution. Anyone that insists on one is ....insane.

That being said, I think that much of the violence we see blamed on mental illness, with or without guns, is caused more by societal factors than actual mental illness. Too many boundries that kept weak minded people in check have been blurred. A lack of any real consequence allows them to think virtually any action is permissible, and that it's not really their fault. We have regressed to a society of children saying "He made me do it!" in order to avoid personal responsibility.

I think we can start by moving to change that.

Expecting a politician to do anything that's not in their self interest is a waste of time. In short, if you need a hot air balloon filled, call a politician, other than that they're useless. { See also "Bureaucrat" }

I suppose it would depend on what can be done. It can be treated, but not cured. Unless it's caused by an outside influence like drugs, there is no preventative measure to be taken other than not allowing known mental defectives to breed and create more. It's kind of like cancer, you can remove it from the body { society } or you can kill it in place and hope it doesn't come back, but it inevitably does. I don't support increasing government spending on anything normally, but in this case I would support bringing back mental institutions. There would have to be strict controls on the people administering such facilities but it would be better than having them running loose among us. For their sake as well as ours.

I think that this approach would take care of much of the problem regarding mental illness and guns, but we also have to realize that there never will be a "perfect" solution. Occasionally a crazy person will get their hands on a gun. This is just part of the price of a free society. Sometimes there simply is no proactive solution. Anyone that insists on one is ....insane.

That being said, I think that much of the violence we see blamed on mental illness, with or without guns, is caused more by societal factors than actual mental illness. Too many boundries that kept weak minded people in check have been blurred. A lack of any real consequence allows them to think virtually any action is permissible, and that it's not really their fault. We have regressed to a society of children saying "He made me do it!" in order to avoid personal responsibility.

I think we can start by moving to change that.

Certainly a realistic view if nothing else.

Though mental illness cannot often be gotten rid of, it can be created through human actions. Given this we can certainly do more to try and prevent mental illness in individuals who were not born with it.

A lot of mental illness exists on a spectrum making it difficult to decide when to treat and when to actually put them in a facility. When to let them have guns and when to prevent them from having guns in this case.

The issue with mental illness and guns usually comes up around mass shootings. Cases that are emotional and highly publicized but actually represent a small number of murders in this country. But it does get a lot of attention and this is why I think gun owners should have some sort of an answer on how to deal with the issue.

I do agree that many problems get seen as mental illness caused when in fact there may be other much more significant factors. Take for example the Columbine shooting. A lot of people see it and think mental illness, but when I see it, I think it was more of a bullying problem. Two kids who were reported to have suffered bullying lashed out. They made bombs so obviously stopping them from having guns wouldn't have worked but had someone or some people treated them differently we may never have heard about that town. Sorry, inda off topic.

Certainly a realistic view if nothing else.

Though mental illness cannot often be gotten rid of, it can be created through human actions. Given this we can certainly do more to try and prevent mental illness in individuals who were not born with it.

A lot of mental illness exists on a spectrum making it difficult to decide when to treat and when to actually put them in a facility. When to let them have guns and when to prevent them from having guns in this case.

The issue with mental illness and guns usually comes up around mass shootings. Cases that are emotional and highly publicized but actually represent a small number of murders in this country. But it does get a lot of attention and this is why I think gun owners should have some sort of an answer on how to deal with the issue.

I do agree that many problems get seen as mental illness caused when in fact there may be other much more significant factors. Take for example the Columbine shooting. A lot of people see it and think mental illness, but when I see it, I think it was more of a bullying problem. Two kids who were reported to have suffered bullying lashed out. They made bombs so obviously stopping them from having guns wouldn't have worked but had someone or some people treated them differently we may never have heard about that town. Sorry, inda off topic.

I agree, we have gotten far off topic here, apologies to the OP.

One final comment and I'll leave it alone.

Your example of Columbine is perfect. It represents the difference between emotional instability and lack of self control versus true mental illness and the societal changes that have allowed it to become commonplace.

In the not too distant past we were all taught, trained if you will, to conduct ourselves within the confines of logic and reason. This had the effect of stifling emotional displays and outbursts. We were taught to control our emotions, to think before acting.

Of course, some people had difficulty with this. I'm not saying it's bad or good, but we have to admit that it exists and caused some people difficulty. I don't think I need to go into the myriad problems this caused for those affected.

I believe it was in the 60's that the psychiatric community began pushing the notion that allowing people to "freely express" their emotions would solve the problems these few individuals faced. To an extent they were right, those people "felt" better. As so often happens, they sought to apply this theory to everyone. What gearheads like me refer to as the Stroker McGurk Theory, which states that: "If some is good, and more is better, then too much should be just right!". A recipe for certain failure.

This has had the unfortunate effect of creating a generation that values emotion over logic, compassion over reason, feelings over reality. It allows them to put selfish desire before societal obligation, and feel righteous about it. Thus, they feel that if they are "wronged" in some fashion it's OK to lash out at those around them, since "someone else" is to blame for all their problems. They always seem to fail to take into account that their own decision to live or act outside of societal "norms" may be part of the problem. This isn't meant to excuse bullying, but I think we can agree that if you act oddly you make yourself a target.

This is exactly what I meant about societal boundries being blurred. Those that are truly mentally ill cannot help themselves and require help. Most of the violence we see is created by people that refuse to exercise self control.

I agree, we have gotten far off topic here, apologies to the OP.

One final comment and I'll leave it alone.

Your example of Columbine is perfect. It represents the difference between emotional instability and lack of self control versus true mental illness and the societal changes that have allowed it to become commonplace.

In the not too distant past we were all taught, trained if you will, to conduct ourselves within the confines of logic and reason. This had the effect of stifling emotional displays and outbursts. We were taught to control our emotions, to think before acting.

Of course, some people had difficulty with this. I'm not saying it's bad or good, but we have to admit that it exists and caused some people difficulty. I don't think I need to go into the myriad problems this caused for those affected.

I believe it was in the 60's that the psychiatric community began pushing the notion that allowing people to "freely express" their emotions would solve the problems these few individuals faced. To an extent they were right, those people "felt" better. As so often happens, they sought to apply this theory to everyone. What gearheads like me refer to as the Stroker McGurk Theory, which states that: "If some is good, and more is better, then too much should be just right!". A recipe for certain failure.

This has had the unfortunate effect of creating a generation that values emotion over logic, compassion over reason, feelings over reality. It allows them to put selfish desire before societal obligation, and feel righteous about it. Thus, they feel that if they are "wronged" in some fashion it's OK to lash out at those around them, since "someone else" is to blame for all their problems. They always seem to fail to take into account that their own decision to live or act outside of societal "norms" may be part of the problem. This isn't meant to excuse bullying, but I think we can agree that if you act oddly you make yourself a target.

This is exactly what I meant about societal boundries being blurred. Those that are truly mentally ill cannot help themselves and require help. Most of the violence we see is created by people that refuse to exercise self control.

your ideas violate my "safe space"
please cease immediately

your ideas violate my "safe space"
please cease immediately

Your not responsible for your feelings Mac. You should blame EEF or Edster for making you feel this way. If you feel the need to freely express your emotions, go ahead. I am sure as a Moderator you will censor yourself after you let it all out.