In a recent post, I assigned trollish behavior to a forum member here.  Two defensive posts quickly went up, assuring me that the poster was not a troll, but was actually quite competent in the field of firearms.  This surprised me.  Not the fact that people would defend him, nor the fact that he's competent, but that those who replied inferred I was ever questioning his competency.  Which got me to wondering about how people use the word "troll."

Tom_G's definition of troll, as it applies to internet forums:
1.  A person who posts needlessly acerbic replies.
2.  A person who writes deliberately provocative or hostile posts in order to provoke emotional responses.

But maybe that's not what everyone things.  I did a little Googling, and here's what Wikipedia, everyone's most trusted source on the internet, has to say:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Pretty close to my own definition, and even some of my own wording.  But as my recent experience indicates, there seem to be other definitions out there.

So, let's hear it.  What's your definition of a troll?

1.  A person who posts needlessly acerbic replies.
2.  A person who writes deliberately provocative or hostile posts in order to provoke emotional responses.

I concur.

I think the confusion may arise from the definition of troll including the troll not actually believing anything they're saying. If someone say things that aggravate another party, but actually believes the stance they're taking, it's not trolling as much as simple provoking. When you discredit the other party as simply trolling, you're saying that they're motivated primarily by a desire to grieve you, rather than to defend any beliefs they genuinely hold.

If "troll" doesn't work, "asshole" will do.

I think the confusion may arise from the definition of troll including the troll not actually believing anything they're saying. If someone say things that aggravate another party, but actually believes the stance they're taking, it's not trolling as much as simple provoking. When you discredit the other party as simply trolling, you're saying that they're motivated primarily by a desire to grieve you, rather than to defend any beliefs they genuinely hold.

If "troll" doesn't work, "asshole" will do.

I was trying to think of how to word what I was thinking, but I'll just give this a "+1".  Although sometimes people troll about stuff they do believe.  It's a fine line between the two; am I trolling the Brady Campaign's web forum, or am I prosthletyzing to the unwashed masses?  Either way, I believe what I'm saying, but it could be considered trollish to go out of my way to argue my point on a message board devoted to an opposing viewpoint.

I was trying to think of how to word what I was thinking, but I'll just give this a "+1".  Although sometimes people troll about stuff they do believe.  It's a fine line between the two; am I trolling the Brady Campaign's web forum, or am I prosthletyzing to the unwashed masses?  Either way, I believe what I'm saying, but it could be considered trollish to go out of my way to argue my point on a message board devoted to an opposing viewpoint.

I think the difference lies in your motivation. Even if you do genuinely believe in gun rights, are you there just to start a fight,  or are you there to reach out and provide an opposing viewpoint  ? You can have mixed motivations, of course, but if you truly can't decide which side of the divide you lean toward, we'd have to invent a new word for you: "Asstroll"? "Trollhole"? "Trasshole?"   

(On a side note, I think sometimes the best way to know the truth about your own motivations is to observe your reactions to the results, rather than what you tell yourself and try to convince others. And on a further tangent, I read somewhere, if you can't make up your mind about something, flip a coin. What you hope for while the coin is in the air, is what you really want.)

...............
But maybe that's not what everyone things.  I did a little Googling, and here's what Wikipedia, everyone's most trusted source on the internet, has to say:

Quote

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

.......................

You do realize that anyone can edit a Wikipedia entry right?

You do realize that anyone can edit a Wikipedia entry right?

You never miss a chance to warn people against Wikipedia! 

Quote from: GZire on December 15, 2011, 04:57:18 PM

You do realize that anyone can edit a Wikipedia entry right?

You never miss a chance to warn people against Wikipedia! 

Some people need to be reminded/informed.  Some people take for gospel anything that is written or printed.

Some people need to be reminded/informed.  Some people take for gospel anything that is written or printed.

True, true. Good point. 

It matters not how any individual defines it.  This forum is private property and so things that some people think exsist actually do NOT.  Things like the 1st Amendment.  This is not public space and so the criteria that exists is:  Free speech is NOT free.  What is acceptable is whatever the Owner(s), Administrator(s) and/or Moderator(s) deem it to be.  Behavior definitions are also "moderated" at the descetion of the afore mentioned parties.

I would suggest that the only definition that needs to be known is that from any of those parties I mentioned.  What anyone else says on the subject and/or how anyone else defines use of language or behavior is completely irrelavant.

I'm a Troll !!!!

Quote from: Tom_G on December 15, 2011, 09:34:10 AM

...............
But maybe that's not what everyone things.  I did a little Googling, and here's what Wikipedia, everyone's most trusted source on the internet, has to say:

Quote

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

.......................

You do realize that anyone can edit a Wikipedia entry right?

GZ, I'll be starting another thread on how to recognize sarcasm in an internet post.  Dude, I had you in mind when I picked that reference! 

It matters not how any individual defines it.  This forum is private property and so things that some people think exsist actually do NOT.  Things like the 1st Amendment.  This is not public space and so the criteria that exists is:  Free speech is NOT free.  What is acceptable is whatever the Owner(s), Administrator(s) and/or Moderator(s) deem it to be.  Behavior definitions are also "moderated" at the descetion of the afore mentioned parties.

I would suggest that the only definition that needs to be known is that from any of those parties I mentioned.  What anyone else says on the subject and/or how anyone else defines use of language or behavior is completely irrelavant.

I don't see how that's relevant, Growler.  What I'm interested in is clarity of language.  To say "It matters not how any individual defines it" implies, to me, that you subscribe to Humpty Dumpty's use of language.

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

So, by choosing not to subscribe to a shared meaning, you ensure that clear communication and understanding are impossibilities.  Whether or not that understanding, or lack thereof, is occurring in a free speech or moderated environment isn't germane to the question.  At least, I don't see how.

My point?

Ask the Mods, Admins or Owner.  They have the information on the guidelines as THEY deem them to be.  What is and isn't allowable on THEIR forum,the definitions of terms and behaviors as THEY define them.

10, 20 or 50 different peoples definitions of a term have little bearing on the matter in the context I believe you to be fishing for.  Avoid continued confusion and debate fodder.......go to the source for such answers.

My point?

Ask the Mods, Admins or Owner.  They have the information on the guidelines as THEY deem them to be.  What is and isn't allowable on THEIR forum,the definitions of terms and behaviors as THEY define them.

10, 20 or 50 different peoples definitions of a term have little bearing on the matter in the context I believe you to be fishing for.  Avoid continued confusion and debate fodder.......go to the source for such answers.

Ahh... you misunderstand my intent.  I'm not interested in "What will get me banned?"  Well, I am, but that's not what I'm asking.  I'm genuinely trying to determine how the many different individuals here use the word "troll."  And, for that, the moderators are of no particular use, simply additional individuals with additional perceptions. 

So how about you, Growler?  What is your definition of "Troll?" 

Ahh... you misunderstand my intent.  I'm not interested in "What will get me banned?"  Well, I am, but that's not what I'm asking.  I'm genuinely trying to determine how the many different individuals here use the word "troll."  And, for that, the moderators are of no particular use, simply additional individuals with additional perceptions. 

So how about you, Growler?  What is your definition of "Troll?"

In general FWIW, any of the entries from the Urban Dictionary on "troll" or "trolling" would suffice.  Again, I do not see the relavance or import to my definition.  Whether or not the chosen form of "moderation" is a ban or not, what I feel should matter is 'what does the staff here consider the definition to be'.

Sorry double post via phone

Again, I do not see the relavance or import to my definition.  Whether or not the chosen form of "moderation" is a ban or not, what I feel should matter is 'what does the staff here consider the definition to be'.

What I'm asking has nothing to do with the staff.  Consider the following question:
"What's your favorite recipe for chicken?" 
The staff, as you refer to them, probably have opinions on that matter.  The fact that they are staff doesn't give their opinion any particular weight.  Unless, of course, they decide that the question is somehow inappropriate and choose to redact the thread.

The relevance of your definition is that I asked you for it.  No other answer to the question is possible.  It is not only relevant, is is the exclusively relevant response.

Quote from: GZire on December 15, 2011, 04:57:18 PM

Quote from: Tom_G on December 15, 2011, 09:34:10 AM

...............
But maybe that's not what everyone things.  I did a little Googling, and here's what Wikipedia, everyone's most trusted source on the internet, has to say:

Quote

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

.......................

You do realize that anyone can edit a Wikipedia entry right?

GZ, I'll be starting another thread on how to recognize sarcasm in an internet post.  Dude, I had you in mind when I picked that reference! 

Ha ha ha ha ......... chee hoo baby!!!

Anyhow with regards to this troll thing.  Often times there are your version of events, mine, and the truth usually falls somewhere in between..............to expand a bit further a lot of this is "perception becoming reality."  In other words although I may be saying/thinking something what people think I'm saying/thinking becomes "truth".............................so it's kind of a definition be damned because two people experience things differently so even by the same definition one person may think this person is a troll while person 2 says no way.

I'm wondering if Growler67 is some sort of mad genius who is trolling the thread about trolls.