Like many, I find it very hard to find time these days to do quality training, especially with pistol.   I don't have availability of a coach when I do have time to go to shoot, so I was thinking about how I can do dry fire practice at home to make my elusive and precious live fire time more valuable.  I do have a laser snap cap, and it has helped me improve a little with trigger control and flinching, however, this looks very interesting in that one can use it dry fire AND live fire to help you diagnose common shooter errors. 

I just purchased one of these new devices, and I'll do a review on it's use, and hopefully improvements that it can help me accomplish.  I also plan to try this out on my rifle to help me with shot call and standing offhand. 


What do you all think?  Did I waste $150? 

So...
You want to train mantis style?




Honestly, any training is better than no training.

Let us know how it works, and then you can answer the question about whether it was a waste of $150. 😀

seems that it uses an accelerometer connected via Bluetooth to a phone.

I found that in pistol shooting a lot depends on how you press the trigger before it breaks. With a 1911, I estimate that at least half of the shot being on call is how I press the trigger back - in my own experience. I have the Top Gun but haven't used it since I moved. I think that tool is good in essence that it measure how steady your hold is prior to shot release.
In my own opinion a training system that I seek shows what goes on before, during and after the shot - so I can troubleshoot where my errors are. But I have a different learning style. I am a tangible, hands-on learner. I like pictures and I like to visualize processes for me to learn. Thus, I'm a slow learner.
The trainer I'd like is the Scatt MX-02
http://www.scatt.com/training-systems/62/scatt-mx-02/

but you can see how expensive that is.

So...
You want to train mantis style?




Honestly, any training is better than no training.

Let us know how it works, and then you can answer the question about whether it was a waste of $150. 😀

Gonna give it a shot.... pun intended.   Seems I hit a wall with the dry fire laser snap cap and limited and far between amount of live fire. I did manage to be able to keep my shots grouped at least, mostly, inside of a 12" target at 25 yards, vice blasting the legs of my target stand. 

Still need a lot of work.

seems that it uses an accelerometer connected via Bluetooth to a phone.

I found that in pistol shooting a lot depends on how you press the trigger before it breaks. With a 1911, I estimate that at least half of the shot being on call is how I press the trigger back - in my own experience. I have the Top Gun but haven't used it since I moved. I think that tool is good in essence that it measure how steady your hold is prior to shot release.
In my own opinion a training system that I seek shows what goes on before, during and after the shot - so I can troubleshoot where my errors are. But I have a different learning style. I am a tangible, hands-on learner. I like pictures and I like to visualize processes for me to learn. Thus, I'm a slow learner.
The trainer I'd like is the Scatt MX-02
http://www.scatt.com/training-systems/62/scatt-mx-02/

but you can see how expensive that is.

Like the scatt system, but the cost....  too many other priorities to go that deep.    I would if I could.

Also, since this device can be used during live fire, I might be able to visualize what I did to make the shot go off call.  Which is very difficult to determine without someone watching what you are doing. 

I've been using the LASRAPP program which works with any laser.  I use it with my SIRT pistols and instead of a laser catridge, I use the the Laserlyte premium which should last longer.  The LASRAPP works pretty well for accuracy though it only diagnoses follow through and not the takeup.  It does help a lot with my speed and follow up shots though.

http://lasrapp.com/
http://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-pistol-pre
https://nextleveltraining.com/

I've been using the LASRAPP program which works with any laser.  I use it with my SIRT pistols and instead of a laser catridge, I use the the Laserlyte premium which should last longer.  The LASRAPP works pretty well for accuracy though it only diagnoses follow through and not the takeup.  It does help a lot with my speed and follow up shots though.

http://lasrapp.com/
http://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-pistol-pre
https://nextleveltraining.com/

I currently use the SureStrike laser snapcap.  It has helped a lot.  It can show if the trigger pull at the time of discharge is smooth and still or jerked. However, I do not have the lasrapp.  This has been a hindrance to me, as in order to see what is going immediately after the trigger pull, I need to change focus to the target, instead of focus solely on the front sight.  I think that is why I'm at the wall, and probably have even picked up some bad habits doing this.

Wanted to get a base line for were I am at currently, which is not that great. 









Looking at the target instead of the front sight.

25 yards



7 yards rapid shots.



1:03 - put the compact mag in the 75B and consequently the rounds don't feed onto the chamber.  Really milking that grip!   
2:02 - the apple on the head shot. 

Got the system in the mail the other day.  Very nice packaging and comes in a nice pelican case.

So far I got two short dry fire sessions in.  MAN, this thing is hard to please.  It really forces one to concentrate on a straight back smooth trigger pull. I have also been forced to continue to watch the front sight through follow through, and I have starting to notice movement, at the break, that is indeed registered by the device.   

Out of 300 dry fire rounds maybe 10 or 15 "nice shot" were registered....  An other issue is that dry fire shots are not always registered by the device. 

It is a pretty neat program that compiles the data and can give you a breakdown of what you may be doing wrong and a suggestion on how to correct the error.  The first session I didn't figure out how to save the results, but my average was about 82%.

Today's session of 100 dry fire shots came in about 86%.  So maybe improvement registered?  and to save you must share the screen shot to another program.  One improvement I would like to see is that the app saves the sessions in it's own files instead of you having to do a separate save of each screen you wish to keep.

I'll try to continue to dry fire practice until I get about 90%, then go back to live fire and see if my groups tighten up.

Interesting device.  Sorry, saw this post earlier, but I have been working on it a bit.  Thought I might give you a more detailed response if you are also putting in the effort to watch and attempt some of the stuff on the video's posted.   

I will note that you can learn huge amounts of information from video and I obviously shoot video and I use video heavily as a training and a diagnostics tool for both myself and to help students.  So keep using video, but it is also important to understand what you are looking at.  Overall you have a workable technique but there are several small details that when combined give a larger error on target.  So, I often tell people that it is good if I nit pick (fine tune) you because that means there are no huge problems to overcome.  You may know some or all of the following, but I will nit pick or offer some food for thought just in case.

You obviously have either a pre-ignition push or poor timing with a post ignition push.  More evaluation would be needed to figure out which it is, but someone who knows what they are looking at and knows methods to determine which it is, we can quickly enough determine if it is a pre or post push.  We all know what pre-ignition push is (flinching), however some shooters develop a post ignition push out of bad habit and can also be a flinch.  However more advanced shooters purposely use a post ignition push to help return the pistol a bit more quickly rather than relying on a more neutral alignment to settle the pistol.  It is used to reduce muzzle rise even more.   They can both look the same when the hammer or striker falls on an empty chamber and even use of dummy rounds and they will both look the same so correct diagnosis is critical. 

A post ignition push can be just as bad as a pre-ignition push if you are not spot on with your timing.  Some shooters whose skill develop start using a post ignition push without knowing what they are actually doing and don't have good results.  Learning and executing it correctly is not as easy.  So unless if a shooter is very skilled and competing at very high levels the post ignition push is not going to help 99.9% of shooters.  I will say that I do employ a post ignition push in some of my shooting and if I were to be using dummy rounds in a string of fire you will see it happen.  Again 99.9% of shooters won't know the difference when seeing it. 

Next is your follow through which you already hit on.  Tracking and staying on your sights is key, even if you are only firing one shot, but even more so if you are shooting strings of shots.  Always obtain a final sight picture and maintain it a bit longer to force you to keep your head down.  I call it "keeping your eye on the ball".  Just like in golf or baseball, what happens if you look up and take your eye off the ball?  You miss or shank the shot.  Same with shooting.  One round fired = 2 sight pictures, 2 rounds = 3 sight pictures, etc and over emphasize this in training drills.  We all want to see that magic hole appear in the paper or are in a rush to look up and assess our shots on paper, be mindful and try not to fall into that trap.  You also come all the way off the trigger very quickly, I mean completely off the trigger.  This causes issues with grip pressures and unwanted movement.  I will talk more about the trigger next.

Also work on a sharper or stricter front sight focus.  This also helps with sight tracking and follow through.  As a shooter progresses, they can work into alternate sight pictures where our visual focus may change, but for now, strict front sight focus. 

The elephant in the room, if not obvious is trigger control.  Trigger control IS marksmanship.  You are very hard on your trigger.  As an example, Robbie Leatham and some other great shooters will tell you to acquire your sights and jerk or slap the trigger.  Most of those guys are #1 running very fine tuned, straight draw 1911 triggers with short throws or are #2 super human in their skills developed over more rounds than most people can even imagine shooting. 

Having said that you come pretty far off the trigger way past reset and then jerk or slap the subsequent shots.  I am not talking about "riding the trigger to reset" as I don't do this either, but you are creating issues with your current technique.  This will kill you even more so on a DA/SA trigger where trigger pull weights change from DA to SA and also on trigger like the DA/SA CZ where the trigger has a lot of overall travel distance, unlike say a 1911 that has little to no pre travel, breaks crisp and very little distance back to reset.  I can slap or jerk a good 1911 trigger all day long, but need more care on Sig, CZ or even a striker fired or any pistol with a hinged trigger which is pretty much most everything.

I pretty much suggest a touch, prep and press as to where some suggest a straight pull through like a revolver.  Both techniques can work and there are pros and cons to both just like anything.  With this type of method you also need to work on or think about "resetting during recoil" to where the trigger is reset and re-prepped as the weapon is going through the recoil phase.  This is hard to accomplish if we use a slap or jerk method and on a trigger that is not a 4lb 1911 straight draw with short engagement, results are often poor, unless your name is Leatham.  You can google these terms to find our more info, or hit up pistol-forum for a lot of great pistol shooting information. 

On the plus side, your grip looks solid but I would be interested in your grip pressures throughout the trigger pull and follow through phase, but from what I see in the short clip, it looks pretty good.  Hard to tell from the angle of video, but I might like to see your head a bit more erect with less engagement of the traps and other neck muscles.  There is good tension and bad tension.  Most people might grasp the concept but don't understand how this really works, or how to make it work.

Overall the things I mention are small but important details.  Add up a bunch of small issues really add up quickly when you are pushing fundamentals.  On the plus side, you can be fixed fairly easily provided that you get a chance to work with the right person who knows how to correctly diagnose and then knows how to fix the issues because all shooters are a bit different in how they learn or perform.  The downside is that these are pretty advanced things to ask from an average or even above average instructor and finding someone that can do it well can be problematic.   

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps.

Interesting device.  Sorry, saw this post earlier, but I have been working on it a bit.  Thought I might give you a more detailed response if you are also putting in the effort to watch and attempt some of the stuff on the video's posted.   

I will note that you can learn huge amounts of information from video and I obviously shoot video and I use video heavily as a training and a diagnostics tool for both myself and to help students.  So keep using video, but it is also important to understand what you are looking at.  Overall you have a workable technique but there are several small details that when combined give a larger error on target.  So, I often tell people that it is good if I nit pick (fine tune) you because that means there are no huge problems to overcome.  You may know some or all of the following, but I will nit pick or offer some food for thought just in case.

You obviously have either a pre-ignition push or poor timing with a post ignition push.  More evaluation would be needed to figure out which it is, but someone who knows what they are looking at and knows methods to determine which it is, we can quickly enough determine if it is a pre or post push.  We all know what pre-ignition push is (flinching), however some shooters develop a post ignition push out of bad habit and can also be a flinch.  However more advanced shooters purposely use a post ignition push to help return the pistol a bit more quickly rather than relying on a more neutral alignment to settle the pistol.  It is used to reduce muzzle rise even more.   They can both look the same when the hammer or striker falls on an empty chamber and even use of dummy rounds and they will both look the same so correct diagnosis is critical. 

A post ignition push can be just as bad as a pre-ignition push if you are not spot on with your timing.  Some shooters whose skill develop start using a post ignition push without knowing what they are actually doing and don't have good results.  Learning and executing it correctly is not as easy.  So unless if a shooter is very skilled and competing at very high levels the post ignition push is not going to help 99.9% of shooters.  I will say that I do employ a post ignition push in some of my shooting and if I were to be using dummy rounds in a string of fire you will see it happen.  Again 99.9% of shooters won't know the difference when seeing it. 

Next is your follow through which you already hit on.  Tracking and staying on your sights is key, even if you are only firing one shot, but even more so if you are shooting strings of shots.  Always obtain a final sight picture and maintain it a bit longer to force you to keep your head down.  I call it "keeping your eye on the ball".  Just like in golf or baseball, what happens if you look up and take your eye off the ball?  You miss or shank the shot.  Same with shooting.  One round fired = 2 sight pictures, 2 rounds = 3 sight pictures, etc and over emphasize this in training drills.  We all want to see that magic hole appear in the paper or are in a rush to look up and assess our shots on paper, be mindful and try not to fall into that trap.  You also come all the way off the trigger very quickly, I mean completely off the trigger.  This causes issues with grip pressures and unwanted movement.  I will talk more about the trigger next.

Also work on a sharper or stricter front sight focus.  This also helps with sight tracking and follow through.  As a shooter progresses, they can work into alternate sight pictures where our visual focus may change, but for now, strict front sight focus. 

The elephant in the room, if not obvious is trigger control.  Trigger control IS marksmanship.  You are very hard on your trigger.  As an example, Robbie Leatham and some other great shooters will tell you to acquire your sights and jerk or slap the trigger.  Most of those guys are #1 running very fine tuned, straight draw 1911 triggers with short throws or are #2 super human in their skills developed over more rounds than most people can even imagine shooting. 

Having said that you come pretty far off the trigger way past reset and then jerk or slap the subsequent shots.  I am not talking about "riding the trigger to reset" as I don't do this either, but you are creating issues with your current technique.  This will kill you even more so on a DA/SA trigger where trigger pull weights change from DA to SA and also on trigger like the DA/SA CZ where the trigger has a lot of overall travel distance, unlike say a 1911 that has little to no pre travel, breaks crisp and very little distance back to reset.  I can slap or jerk a good 1911 trigger all day long, but need more care on Sig, CZ or even a striker fired or any pistol with a hinged trigger which is pretty much most everything.

I pretty much suggest a touch, prep and press as to where some suggest a straight pull through like a revolver.  Both techniques can work and there are pros and cons to both just like anything.  With this type of method you also need to work on or think about "resetting during recoil" to where the trigger is reset and re-prepped as the weapon is going through the recoil phase.  This is hard to accomplish if we use a slap or jerk method and on a trigger that is not a 4lb 1911 straight draw with short engagement, results are often poor, unless your name is Leatham.  You can google these terms to find our more info, or hit up pistol-forum for a lot of great pistol shooting information. 

On the plus side, your grip looks solid but I would be interested in your grip pressures throughout the trigger pull and follow through phase, but from what I see in the short clip, it looks pretty good.  Hard to tell from the angle of video, but I might like to see your head a bit more erect with less engagement of the traps and other neck muscles.  There is good tension and bad tension.  Most people might grasp the concept but don't understand how this really works, or how to make it work.

Overall the things I mention are small but important details.  Add up a bunch of small issues really add up quickly when you are pushing fundamentals.  On the plus side, you can be fixed fairly easily provided that you get a chance to work with the right person who knows how to correctly diagnose and then knows how to fix the issues because all shooters are a bit different in how they learn or perform.  The downside is that these are pretty advanced things to ask from an average or even above average instructor and finding someone that can do it well can be problematic.   

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps.

Thank you Surf for the long and detailed reply.  I wish there were more videos to watch! They are very interesting and informative and easy to understand.  Thank you for the great tips and I will try to work on everything you suggested. 

The flinch is real.  I have had to work on this a lot, I have improved a lot, but I do need more work.

Honestly, I had no idea that I slapped the trigger like that until I watched the vid, and I was very surprised.  Lol.. As Kokohead doesn't allow this rate of fire, I am very new to shooting at a more rapid pace.  I will work on the trigger control and reset.

Asking about grip pressure, I have a bad habit of over gripping or not gripping enough alternately.  Inconsistent grip is one of my big issues.

For the grip, can you elaborate more on less trap and neck muscles and good and bad tension?  I can't picture it. 

Thank you again for sharing your insight and experience with me and the forum!

I received my MantisX today and tried dry firing it.  First I installed it on my SIRT Glock laser pistol, however it would not register any shots.  The MantisX website does say it does not work on SIRT pistols.  I think the trigger is either too soft or not loud enough to activate the MantisX.  I then tried it on a SIRT M&P laser pistol which has a sharper and louder trigger.  It does register about 50% of the shots.  I then tried it on a real Springfield XD pistol (my only pistol with a rail) which registers 95% of the shots.

My first few shot groups registered with a high 80's score.  The green squiggly line is the pre-trigger break, the yellow is during the break, and red is after the break.  The goal is to get the squiggly lines into a tight cluster for a higher score.  It only detects movement, so it does not detect an actual target for improving sight picture/alignment.  I focused on my trigger squeeze and grip more and I got my score into the mid 90's.  The gyroscopes do their job at detecting just the slightest movement, probably in the tenths of a millimeter.  The phone app does provide a picture and text suggestions on how to correct mistakes which is good for a beginning shooter.  It gives them a starting point to try and fix their mistakes on their own.  However I think it would be better if there was an integrated video instead, and it doesn't replace an actual coach.

The main benefit for me is that it encourages me to get better.  I want to keep using it to improve my score.  It also stores the data so I can see my improvement over time.  I also want to use it to improve my one handed shooting.  I'm going to try using it for live fire tomorrow and see how it works, and if it helps me improve my technique.  I think this makes a good supplement to my SIRT/Laserapp trainer setup, but I'm a bit disappointed it doesn't work with the SIRT Glocks.

The MantisX is flexible as it can also be used with airsoft pistols along with rifles which I'll test later.

Another good thing about the MantisX is it force shooters to focus on follow through.  I see a lot of shooters don't do follow through or are too impatient to do it.  This really emphasizes it.

I've not had much time to continue playing with this as of late.  Low on funds for live fire to test any improvement on the close in range.  Live fire does work too.    I did try it on my AR for some standing dryfire and seems to work and gives good feedback, but the "coaching" of the app wouldn't necessarily jibe with rifle.  I need to download updates to the software.  My version doesn't have the trace function, that would give great feedback on standing unsupported.

I wish it had a QD.  unscrewing it is a PITA

Here is our experience with MantisX:


All around I'm very impressed with the system. Especially for newer shooters.

You can get it here: https://www.concealedcarry.com/product/mantisx-training-rail-attachment-and-phone-app/

Another review of the MantisX system which I use and sell at the gun show.  I've been using it for static dry fire practice where I just have the gun out and press.  I'll have to try it like they did in the video coming out from the compressed ready.

Thought about this too as I was about to get the SCATT Basic USB.