Here is a listing of all city representatives, if you wish to contact them.(city council)

Here is the contact info. Drop them a line. 
http://www1.honolulu.gov/council/ccl.htm

Here is a listing of all city representatives, if you wish to contact them.(city council)

Here is the contact info. Drop them a line. 
http://www1.honolulu.gov/council/ccl.htm

Thanks Heavies!!! I'll be writing them tonight.

MAJOR APOLOGY: The figure i gave was for FY 2010-2011.  My Mistake.  I need new glasses.

AFAIK, nothing has been said about the 2012  budget.

About the $15 per hour fee

Just wondering IF an established group can Pay and have "private" use of the range when it is closed to the public.

Or, what happens if some one starts a new club(organization) and asks to have the range opened on a day off and pay the attendent fees?

Comments?

The answer is: we don't know yet.   I popped the question about the night-shoots, and they informed me that they are still working on the rules.  The real question is are they charging the kids $15.00 a hour to play soccer or softball? What about people reserving a lanai type area outside, or a gym etc.?

Quote from: Old Guy on December 26, 2011, 06:07:52 PM

MAJOR APOLOGY: The figure i gave was for FY 2010-2011.  My Mistake.  I need new glasses.

AFAIK, nothing has been said about the 2012  budget.

About the $15 per hour fee

Just wondering IF an established group can Pay and have "private" use of the range when it is closed to the public.

Or, what happens if some one starts a new club(organization) and asks to have the range opened on a day off and pay the attendent fees?

Comments?

The answer is: we don't know yet.   I popped the question about the night-shoots, and they informed me that they are still working on the rules.  The real question is are they charging the kids $15.00 a hour to play soccer or softball? What about people reserving a lanai type area outside, or a gym etc.?

You do bring up a good point.  Something good enough that the legislators should bring it up.

Maybe someone should ask the News Media to look into this?

Give the news people a List of Pointed questions and have the Mayor's Office reply.

My guess is that "the Rules" are strictly  within and from Parks and Recreation.

Don't think the Council people have any clue or idea what's happening. 

State legislators have really nothing to say about how the City does things.  They can "request" stuff but not mndate in the City.

Here is a listing of all city representatives, if you wish to contact them.(city council)

Here is the contact info. Drop them a line. 
http://www1.honolulu.gov/council/ccl.htm

Thanks again Heavies! I e-mailed every one my concerns. I hope (but doubt) I'll receive much of an answer from anyone.

So I received a reply from Tom Berg within an hour of sending my message to all 9 council members. Here is his reply:

ALOHA David-

I made this youtube on the last gun show held here- and lobbied the folks there to get the reso passed that I introduced to get a public firing range on the west side.


I am against charging any fees at Kokohead.  I will get the roof fixed in-house without imposing any fees if I get my way.  The six municipal golf courses the city operates cost an additional $10 million a year to subsidize....golf is not a necessity, yet for a gun, hitting your target where one aims is a necessity and a right - golf is not a right and no one cares if the ball does not go where you hit it- for a gun, one has to be on target and that warrants the firing range/to practice. So for the taxpayers to subsidize golf at $10 million a  year- the Kokohead range costs $3-4 million a year....my position is to end the golf subsidy. The subsidy for the firing range is warranted as it is a safety issue and a educational tool for responsible handling of such weaponry. Owning a gun and honing in on one's skills to be trained with firing a gun- includes hunting, which is the ability to feed oneself - golf does not sustain us, guns do.

The 5 acre gun range I have proposed is for an indoor facility due to the housing that will come nearby (noise control) in the near future....and it will be a public-private-partnership - operated and maintained by the private sector and a nominal fee would need to be charged to get the quality facility - air conditioned etc.

I plan on scheduling the maintenance, charging a fee, and overall discussion about Kokohead operations at my next Parks Committee meeting- mid January. You should be getting my emails - enewsletters-  if not, pleas go to my website www.councilmanberg.com<http://www.councilmanberg.com> and scroll to bottom to sign up.  Also, on my website is more videos and news coverage on the effort to get a gun range in Kalaeloa.

Hope that answers your questions.
MAHALO
Tom Berg

About the range $15 hour fee.  Apparently it is an older item OK'd and passed by the City Council a while back and Never enforced(How convienent) until now.  Or so I have been  told.

Council Must approve such fees.  Why it was never enforced is anyone's guess.

My guess is someone found it and brought it up to the Parks Director who thought it s a great idea to make up the slack in funds.  Apparently ALL fees are going into the General Funds

and not to the Parks Dept.   An Ooops  perhaps?

I do not think that this will be looked at too closely by this administration unless there is a major Public outcry by the general public and taken up by the news media.

Has anyone heard if the fees are being placed on soccer, baseball, football etc? If it is, can we expect an outcry from parent of kids in those sports?

About the range $15 hour fee.  Apparently it is an older item OK'd and passed by the City Council a while back and Never enforced(How convienent) until now.  Or so I have been  told.

Council Must approve such fees.  Why it was never enforced is anyone's guess.

My guess is someone found it and brought it up to the Parks Director who thought it s a great idea to make up the slack in funds.  Apparently ALL fees are going into the General Funds

and not to the Parks Dept.   An Ooops  perhaps?

I do not think that this will be looked at too closely by this administration unless there is a major Public outcry by the general public and taken up by the news media.

Has anyone heard if the fees are being placed on soccer, baseball, football etc? If it is, can we expect an outcry from parent of kids in those sports?

According to this memo that has been posted, attendant fee is required when there is a person needed to open/close a facility. If the soccer park needs someone to open and close it up, then I am thinking there should be fees levied.   You think they have been charging the youth teams?  I don't have any keiki's, someone must know.

This is an abuse and gross misinterpretation of that paragraph.  Attendant fees would be for say, closing a gym or a facility (maybe locking Kokohead or putting the chain across if you were shooting at night), closing down a pool or building.   It is for when a person is required to be there, after normal hours, to facilitate your use of the park.

We are being taxed, and I am not happy about it. As soon as I finish my school work I am going to look further into this I hope.

.......................The six municipal golf courses the city operates cost an additional $10 million a year to subsidize....golf is not a necessity, yet for a gun, hitting your target where one aims is a necessity and a right - golf is not a right and no one cares if the ball does not go where you hit it- for a gun, one has to be on target and that warrants the firing range/to practice. So for the taxpayers to subsidize golf at $10 million a  year- the Kokohead range costs $3-4 million a year....my position is to end the golf subsidy. The subsidy for the firing range is warranted as it is a safety issue and a educational tool for responsible handling of such weaponry. Owning a gun and honing in on one's skills to be trained with firing a gun- includes hunting, which is the ability to feed oneself - golf does not sustain us, guns do..............

With all due respect to Mr. Berg, he doesn't know squat about golf.  Speaking from personal experience, people do care where you hit balls.  I've personally paid $300 out of pocket to fix a guy's window on the side of a golf course when I snap hooked a drive and scared the living daylights out of his kid.  You are responsible for where your ball goes just as you are responsible for where your bullet goes.

I do not know if Mr. Berg's figures are correct about subsidizing golf.  If we are out of pocket by $10m/year, then obviously the green fees for the courses should go up.  As golfers actually pay for their use of City land/activities I am saddened to see that he would attack them before going after users who pay $0/year to use City facilities/land.

I am not sure where the attack on the golf courses came from as I never even mentioned golf at all. Obviously it is something that he is passionate about. LOL!

I have received answers from two other council persons so far. I guess 3 out of 9 is not great but it is more than I expected. The other two had no idea the roof needed repair at the range and promised to try and do whatever they could to get the repairs done. One qualified themself as saying that money is tight but they would see what they could do. I hope the next council meeting gets us some answers about the roof. Maybe the next letter can address the $15.00 per hour fee.

a golf course is a waste of a range

a golf course is a waste of a range

I golf and I shoot.  There are a crap load more golfers than shooters.  Golfers actually pay a fee to use the service unlike other park users who only use the park.  In other words golfers generate funds.  Add to this that they also buy food and you're employing more people with a golf course than with a range.  Sure you have the RSO's and gardeners, but not to the numbers you see on an average course.

The bad problem with courses is they suck up a crap load of water and they use a ton of pesticides.

If you look at the proposed West Oahu model it's much in line with the way a range is set up.  Here's the knock though.  If it actually is a $3M/year fee for lead and other hazardous materials abatement for a range, then there is no way that can be reasonably spread to the shooters with a reasonable fee.  The use fee would be astronomical.  That being said that $3M/year budget the C&C has that was posted is a bunch of BS.  I cannot see it being that large for a yearly fee unless you are talking about the environmental guys cleaning the mountain at Kokohead.

in case of a OMFG zombie apocalypse golfers cant do jack to help stop teh zombies
I see what Gzire is saying...it makes sense.

I'm pretty sure the golf courses are highly subsidized. And, honestly, there are over 250+ thousand registered firearms in the State of Hawaii, you can probably divide that by 4 or 5 to get the # of gun owners as a estimate.  I know far more gun owners than I do golfers (and I know quite a few golfers... especially military ones).  You really can't consider just the 'range' fee though.  There are GE taxes from all the tourist purchases, fuel, rental cars, etc. etc. that need to be factored in.  Just like we may "lose" money directly on the pro-bowl, but then make it up on all the other tourism, sales, and other stuff for a actual net gain and profit.

The lead / haz material is bullcrap.  We can logically assume because we have never seen the bulldozers and other stuff coming in that it is a BS figure.  Additionally, they have like two huts, and two crappy bathrooms.  I am willing to be that a majority of those figures for electricity and others are to power the district park side - not the range. My computer costs more to run per day then all the electronics at Kokohead (I don't think I am kidding either... 1000w power supply).

If we had a full facility and it was as well taken care of as a golf course I guarantee we would still fill that place to capacity.  Too many people are wholly discouraged from going to the range because they 1.) can't get a table, 2.) they can't really shoot what they want or at a distance that is really feasible, and 3.) they can't make the hours.  Also don't forget, this is 'our' land, not the city and county.  There are gun groups that would be more than happy to run the range for the city. I can guarantee we would do a better job - for less money.

.................If we had a full facility and it was as well taken care of as a golf course I guarantee we would still fill that place to capacity.  Too many people are wholly discouraged from going to the range because they 1.) can't get a table, 2.) they can't really shoot what they want or at a distance that is really feasible, and 3.) they can't make the hours.  Also don't forget, this is 'our' land, not the city and county.  There are gun groups that would be more than happy to run the range for the city. I can guarantee we would do a better job - for less money.

We don't need a full facility to fill the place.  We already fill Kokohead and need more capacity.  I have to rethink Kokohead (rfile side) though.  I typically just table my stuff, I should really just prone out and be guaranteed a spot.

Anyhow, I do agree that a private venture would most certainly run the complex better, be more efficient, and be more attentive to the needs and desires of the patrons.  My fear with this though is what happened to the Raceway.  There are a lot of different factions and getting all to agree will be difficult to do.  Ultimately the concern is it could end up in the death of the facility.

My fear with this though is what happened to the Raceway.  There are a lot of different factions and getting all to agree will be difficult to do.  Ultimately the concern is it could end up in the death of the facility.

This is a legitimate concern.

There is already so much infighting between the different shooting clubs and the absolute worst thing that could happen is for one club that might be bigger or have more members to take control of the range and ruin it for everyone who isn't a member of theirs.

With shooting as with anything else, when certain people have a little authority, it gets to their head and they think they can do whatever they want.

I have had to wait for an opening on the pistol range only once. Most of the time I go there is a spot open. Most of the time there are several spots open. I have had to wait on the metal target side once as well. Neither wait was very long. Most of the time there are spots open. On the rifle range though I have been getting there ~7am just to make sure I have a spot. And a few weeks ago I got there right at 7am and it was full already and I was the 4th person on the waiting list. What made it more frustrating was that it was the Saturday after the roof blew off and there were 4 or 5 benches under the opening that they had taped off and were not letting anyone use. I didn't get a spot until 11am that morning after waiting 4 hours. Considering I drive in from Kapolei it is pretty annoying to have to leave so early in the morning and then not be able to secure a bench and have 4-5 benches unused that day. For me to be able to shoot at the rifle range it is worth the effort I put in as annoying as it is. I would like to see the place re-organized so we can fit in an additional 5-10 people at least.

Other than the bogus $3M for lead clean-up every year that disappears into the black hole, the employees wages are probably the most expensive part of running the range. If a club or a company were to take over running the range I would suspect that things would change drastically and some for the better and some for the worse. If a club took over I wouldn't mind volunteering once a month as a range officer.

As an update I have heard now from only 4 of the 9 council members on the letter I sent them. That is quite sad.