Maj Robinson probably knows his department is screwed and trying to find a way out of the first permit fee dilemma.  His office will have to eat the $42 cost for all of the subsequent permit fees until the law is changed or the majority of subsequent permit applicants is eventually cleared out.  If there are 10,000 firearm owners applying for a subsequent permit in a year (I dunno the real number) then his office has to eat $420,000 in fees.

HPD is forced to do the rapback on all permits to acquire applicants and hence pay the $42 fee.  They can't wait to charge the fee at registration since the person would already be in rapback from their permit application.  The rapback law wording implies that they could possibly charge the fee for each firearm registration, however that would not be reasonable since the person is already in rapback and would do nothing to cover the rapback fee for the subsequent permit that was issued.

I hope MAJ Robinson gives London808 an apology and refunds people their money.  Or else this looks like a clear cut class action lawsuit that a lawyer can take up on contingency.

I think i would actually file pro se on that one. Its such a clear cut violation of the law. I dont think i would need a lawyer.

London, i think we already established that the $42 fee applies when applying for the first permit, and ALSO when the firearm is registered.  Take a look at Section 3 of SB2954.  http://capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2954&year=2016

If you're looking at the PDF <http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/SB2954_HD1_.pdf> then Section 3 starts on page 4, Line 13.  section 3 amends subsection (e) of HRS §134-3.  i'm not quite sure how you're able to argue that the $42 fee doesn't also apply at the time of registration.

The $42 fee is to cover the cost of the background check and being entered into rapback.
 Since I would have already passed the background check at the time of application for a permit. (and if you singn the form be entered into rapback)  What is the fee going to cover ? HPD does not get the fee they pay it to the HCJDC. Once you have the permit and use it to buy a gun, Unless you are in violation of HRS 134-7 they can not/have no legal basis to not register /seize your firearm.

Infact the whole premise of doing a BG check to register a firearm is uncontional. They are running a BG check to see if you can own something you already own.

London, i think we already established that the $42 fee applies when applying for the first permit, and ALSO when the firearm is registered.  Take a look at Section 3 of SB2954.  http://capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2954&year=2016

If you're looking at the PDF <http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2016/bills/SB2954_HD1_.pdf> then Section 3 starts on page 4, Line 13.  section 3 amends subsection (e) of HRS §134-3.  i'm not quite sure how you're able to argue that the $42 fee doesn't also apply at the time of registration.

Maybe I missed it but which language would cover the registrations?

Maybe I missed it but which language would cover the registrations?

Here's the excerpt from SB2954:

SECTION 3.  Section 134-3, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended as follows:
     1.  By amending subsection (a) to read:
     "(a)  Every person arriving in the State who brings or by any other manner causes to be brought into the State a firearm of any description, whether usable or unusable, serviceable or unserviceable, modern or antique, shall register the firearm within five days after arrival of the person or of the firearm, whichever arrives later, with the chief of police of the county of the person's place of business or, if there is no place of business, the person's residence or, if there is neither a place of business nor residence, the person's place of sojourn.  A nonresident alien may bring firearms not otherwise prohibited by law into the State for a continuous period not to exceed ninety days; provided that the person meets the registration requirement of this section and the person possesses:
     (1)  A valid Hawaii hunting license procured under chapter 183D, part II, or a commercial or private shooting preserve permit issued pursuant to section 183D-34;

     (2)  A written document indicating the person has been invited to the State to shoot on private land; or

     (3)  Written notification from a firing range or target shooting business indicating that the person will actually engage in target shooting.

The nonresident alien shall be limited to a nontransferable registration of not more than ten firearms for the purpose of the above activities.
     Every person registering a firearm under this subsection shall be fingerprinted and photographed by the police department of the county of registration; provided that this requirement shall be waived where fingerprints and photographs are already on file with the police department.  The police department shall perform an inquiry on the person by using the [National Instant Criminal Background Check System] International Justice and Public Safety Network, including the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement query, the National Crime Information Center, and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, pursuant to section 846-2.7 before any determination to register a firearm is made."
 
    2.  By amending subsection (b) to read:
     "(b)  Every person who acquires a firearm pursuant to section 134-2 shall register the firearm in the manner prescribed by this section within five days of acquisition.  The registration shall be on forms prescribed by the attorney general, which shall be uniform throughout the State, and shall include the following information:  name of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; serial number; and source from which receipt was obtained, including the name and address of the prior registrant.  If the firearm has no serial number, the permit number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the permit number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm prior to registration.  All registration data that would identify the individual registering the firearm by name or address shall be confidential and shall not be disclosed to anyone, except as may be required [for]:
    (1)  For processing the registration [or as may be required by];

     (2)  For database management by the Hawaii criminal justice data center;

     (3)  By a law enforcement agency for the lawful performance of its duties; or [as may be required by]

     (4)  By order of a court."

     3.  By amending subsection (e) to read:
     "(e)  No fee shall be charged for the registration of a firearm under this section, except for a fee chargeable by and payable to the registering county for persons registering a firearm under subsection (a), in an amount equal to the fee [actually] charged by the [Federal Bureau of Investigation to the registering police department for a fingerprint check in connection with the registration.] Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7.  In the case of a joint registration, the fee provided for in this section may be charged to each person."

NOTE:  i got a little lazy with the ramseyer, but you get the point.  i provided references and links to the law in the post you quoted.

Maybe I missed it but which language would cover the registrations?

Every person registering a firearm under this subsection shall be fingerprinted and photographed by the police department of the county of registration; provided that this requirement shall be waived where fingerprints and photographs are already on file with the police department.  The police department shall perform an inquiry on the applicant using the Criminal Justice Information System and the National Law Enforcement Telecommunications System, including the Immigration and Naturalization Service query therein, National Crime Information Center, National Instant Criminal Background Check System, and pursuant to section 846-2.7

No fee shall be charged for the registration of a firearm under this section, except for a fee chargeable by and payable to the registering county for persons registering a firearm under subsection (a), in an amount equal to the fee charged by the Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7. 



Hmm, But again my argument stands, There should be no background check on a firearm that i already own.

What color stickers you want ?

Im having a friend cut some virginal stickers for me to help fund raising, Those that have donated already will get some. Im thinking Black, White and red ?

I just applied for a long gun & a pistol permit on monday and only had to pay $42.

I think the reason they listed "registering firearms" on the "who must enroll" list was to get the people who had received/applied for permits prior to monday, Dec 5th and add them also to the rapback program. Once they use the permit to acquire and register a firearm.

Once you pay the "first time fee" of $42 to have yourself enrolled into rap back, your good from then on and that is what I understood coming from the guys behind the window.

I will clarify when I go to register my pistol in 2 weeks and see if I have to $42 to register it.

Renewed my long gun permit today. In and out in 45 minutes. Had 2 people in front of me. One just picking up permit and the other registering 9 firearms. I expected to be there for 2 hours. Except for the newbies just moving here the mood from the regulars was not pretty. A lot of resentment and grumbling was heard out in the outer room while I was in the room with the window.

Here's the excerpt from SB2954:

SECTION 3.  Section 134-3, Hawaii Revised Statutes, is amended as follows:
     1.  By amending subsection (a) to read:
    "(a)  Every person arriving in the State who brings or by any other manner causes to be brought into the State a firearm of any description, whether usable or unusable, serviceable or unserviceable, modern or antique, shall register the firearm within five days after arrival of the person or of the firearm, whichever arrives later, with the chief of police of the county of the person's place of business or, if there is no place of business, the person's residence or, if there is neither a place of business nor residence, the person's place of sojourn.  A nonresident alien may bring firearms not otherwise prohibited by law into the State for a continuous period not to exceed ninety days; provided that the person meets the registration requirement of this section and the person possesses:
     (1)  A valid Hawaii hunting license procured under chapter 183D, part II, or a commercial or private shooting preserve permit issued pursuant to section 183D-34;

     (2)  A written document indicating the person has been invited to the State to shoot on private land; or

     (3)  Written notification from a firing range or target shooting business indicating that the person will actually engage in target shooting.

The nonresident alien shall be limited to a nontransferable registration of not more than ten firearms for the purpose of the above activities.
     Every person registering a firearm under this subsection shall be fingerprinted and photographed by the police department of the county of registration; provided that this requirement shall be waived where fingerprints and photographs are already on file with the police department.  The police department shall perform an inquiry on the person by using the [National Instant Criminal Background Check System] International Justice and Public Safety Network, including the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement query, the National Crime Information Center, and the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, pursuant to section 846-2.7 before any determination to register a firearm is made."
 
    2.  By amending subsection (b) to read:
     "(b)  Every person who acquires a firearm pursuant to section 134-2 shall register the firearm in the manner prescribed by this section within five days of acquisition.  The registration shall be on forms prescribed by the attorney general, which shall be uniform throughout the State, and shall include the following information:  name of the manufacturer and importer; model; type of action; caliber or gauge; serial number; and source from which receipt was obtained, including the name and address of the prior registrant.  If the firearm has no serial number, the permit number shall be entered in the space provided for the serial number, and the permit number shall be engraved upon the receiver portion of the firearm prior to registration.  All registration data that would identify the individual registering the firearm by name or address shall be confidential and shall not be disclosed to anyone, except as may be required [for]:
    (1)  For processing the registration [or as may be required by];

     (2)  For database management by the Hawaii criminal justice data center;

     (3)  By a law enforcement agency for the lawful performance of its duties; or [as may be required by]

     (4)  By order of a court."

     3.  By amending subsection (e) to read:
    "(e)  No fee shall be charged for the registration of a firearm under this section, except for a fee chargeable by and payable to the registering county for persons registering a firearm under subsection (a), in an amount equal to the fee [actually] charged by the [Federal Bureau of Investigation to the registering police department for a fingerprint check in connection with the registration.] Hawaii criminal justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7.  In the case of a joint registration, the fee provided for in this section may be charged to each person."

NOTE:  i got a little lazy with the ramseyer, but you get the point.  i provided references and links to the law in the post you quoted.

Just so I am clear about what you are saying.
According to the highlighted areas, you are saying all "registrants" need to pay a fee for RAPBACK background checks and maintenance, per subsection (e)?

However,
I read this as; persons bringing unregistered firearms INTO the state WITHOUT local background checks are the ones being required to pay the "RapBack" fee upon the required registration of the arms per state law.  subsection (a)

This is not applicable to those who ALREADY have a valid permit to acquire.   The checks are already DONE and the person is legal and cleared by Hawaii's laws to purchase and own a long gun or handgun (done prior) to implementation.  There is no authorization here to charge people AFTER THE FACT for a registration of a legally acquired firearm purchased within the state. 

I could be wrong...  Still trying to understand.  maybe you are seeing something different?

Does anyone have a cheap, meaning $75 or less, piece of crap long gun they can sell me?
(Even a lower receiver would work but I wouldn't want to donate a receiver to HPD if they yank it from me)

So I can go down to register it and tell them I don't have the $42 for Rapback.
I have a valid permit.
Could they actually refuse to register it ?
And could I get a note from them stating as much?
And if they confiscate it get a receipt stating the reason why and citing the applicable HRS that gives them the power to do so?

What do you think London?

Does anyone have a cheap, meaning $75 or less, piece of crap long gun they can sell me?
(Even a lower receiver would work)

So I can go down to register it and tell them I don't have the $42 for Rapback.
I have a valid permit.
Could they actually refuse to register it ?
And could I get a note from them stating as much?
And if they confiscate it get a receipt stating the reason why and citing the applicable HRS that gives them the power to do so?

What do you think London?

I would hold off for now, I will shoot you a PM

Does anyone have a cheap, meaning $75 or less, piece of crap long gun they can sell me?

So I can go down to register it and tell them I don't have the $42 for Rapback.
I have a valid permit.
Could they actually refuse to register it ?
And could I get a note from them stating as much?
And if they confiscate it get a receipt stating the reason why and citing the applicable HRS that gives them the power to do so?

What do you think London?

That's what I'm saying.  What grounds would they have to confiscate it?  They could "revoke" your permit via §134-13, but refusing to pay and sign into rapback, when the law clearly doesn't require it for registration, constitute "good cause"   WTF is "good cause" anyway?


§134-13  Revocation of permits.  All permits and licenses provided for under this part may be revoked, for good cause, by the issuing authority or by the judge of any court. [L 1988, c 275, pt of §2]

Roger that London.

And Heavies, I wouldn't be refusing to pay, I just won't have the cash or my credit card.
So I couldn't pay.

This is the letter of complaint i am filling,

---

On December 5th 2016 I visited the Honolulu Police department to renew my long gun permit which had expired. Whilst waiting in line an officer came out and stated informing every one that they would be charged a $42 fee for the background check. I informed the officer that the fee was only for new, first time applicants. I was told that the fee was for everyone.

A short while after Major Robinson came down to the lobby, I informed him that I had an issue and he asked me what im going to do. I told him im going to the window and im not going to pay the $42, I tried to explain to him why and he told me he wont argue with me and he just wanted to know what im going to do, I told him thats what im going to do (not pay the $42) He told me I was not going to get a permit or registration. I asked him why. He told me the law passed says he can charge that fee, I tried to explained to him that the law does not allow them to charge a Fee for renewals but only first time applicants, he cut me of and again repeated hes not going to argue with me. I told him thats not what the HRS says and he is ignoring the law. He again affirmed that the law says he can charge any applicant for a permit a $42 fee. I tried to show him the copy of the bill I had he acknowledged that I had the bill and but again affirmed that if I dont pay I do not get my permit.

HRS 134-2 as signed into law by the Governor (via SB2954) reads :

‘(i) No fee shall be charged for permits, or applications  for permits, under this section except for a single fee chargeable by and payable to the issuing county,  for individuals applying for their first permit, in an amount equal to the fee charged by the  Hawaii criminal  justice data center pursuant to section 846-2.7. In the case of  a joint application, the fee provided for in this section may be  charged to each person to whom no previous permit has been  issued.”

As you can clearly see the Law reads “for individuals  applying for their first permit” Meaning any person who has previously got a permit is not required to pay.

The Honolulu Police department under the instruction of Major Robinson is illegally collecting funds in violation of HRS 134-2, Not only this they are denying applicants who dont hand over the payment there constitutionally protected rights.

I hereby request the following actions be taken,

1 : HPD cease the illegal action of collecting fuds from those who are not applying for the first time.

2 : HPD Refund all funds to those who were illegally charged.

3: An apology letter be issued by the department in News print and via the Honolulu police departments official website.

3 : Major Robinson attends classes on state firearms laws and constitutional law (he shows a flagrant disregard for both).

Your Immediate attention to this matter is greatly appreciated

Andrew Namiki Roberts
Second Amendment Fanatic

Roger that London.

And Heavies, I wouldn't be refusing to pay, I just won't have the cash or my credit card.
So I couldn't pay.

Then they might just tell you that you have to go home and come back with the money within the 5 day period.

Then they might just tell you that you have to go home and come back with the money within the 5 day period.

I would be more worried about them saying you cant register then, Waiting till day 6, Kicking in your front door at 2am to arrest you and seize all your firearms for having an unregistered gun. You then lose all your 2a rights. Thats why i was advising holding off.

Just so I am clear about what you are saying.
According to the highlighted areas, you are saying all "registrants" need to pay a fee for RAPBACK background checks and maintenance, per subsection (e)?

However,
I read this as; persons bringing unregistered firearms INTO the state WITHOUT local background checks are the ones being required to pay the "RapBack" fee upon the required registration of the arms per state law.  subsection (a)

This is not applicable to those who ALREADY have a valid permit to acquire.   The checks are already DONE and the person is legal and cleared by Hawaii's laws to purchase and own a long gun or handgun (done prior) to implementation.  There is no authorization here to charge people AFTER THE FACT for a registration of a legally acquired firearm purchased within the state. 

Thats how I read it as well. Basically since the permit to purchase does not cover people who bring in guns , this amending covers them when they register their guns.

I would be more worried about them saying you cant register then, Waiting till day 6, Kicking in your front door at 2am to arrest you and seize all your firearms for having an unregistered gun. You then lose all your 2a rights. Thats why i was advising holding off.

Agreed. I don't think they would go get a search warrant and kick down your door but they might make a criminal case and refer it to the prosecutor.

Agreed. I don't think they would go get a search warrant and kick down your door but they might make a criminal case and refer it to the prosecutor.

If DC would do it over Ammo why wouldent HPD do it over a gun, We have a Swat Team they might as well use it.

"DC Police Raid Businessman’s House Searching For Unregistered Ammo"
A Washington, DC gun raid which involved more than 30 officers was not conducted at a known drug den or gang bangers’ hideout but at a respected businessman’s home – all to enforce a controversial city ammo law.
The shocking incident even included the man’s teenage son being pulled naked from the shower after the door was broken down with a battering ram.
In a nation where Americans supposedly possess the same Second Amendment rights, Mark Witaschek, a man without a criminal record, faces prison time for possession of unregistered ammo.

Seems to me there  are two issues here. Being entered into the rap back program and the other being the $42.00. I can see the rap back being a bother to some. But the $42.00 dollars? I'm sure you've spent that plus a lot more on your sport in a single day. Going down with coins? Childish.... If i'm behind you in line and you whip out the fee in coins, I'll be very disappointed. You're punishing the people behind you. Better you give the money to London808. The only thing HPD understands is litigation. By the way, for those of you that think HPD didn't have anything to do with the rap back program think again. The legislators are not smart enough to think up of this on their own. This most likely was suggested to them by HPD. Every day the legislature is in session there are two HPD officers there looking out for HPD's interests, not yours.  Now go out a solicit donations, after you donate.

Yup was pretty pissed off. Guess I was just venting and I apologize. Already donated a few days ago to the gofundme site and encouraged a few of my friends to do so as well.