Hello 2a Members!

 Cat here, doing my thing. So, as a new reloader, I have found that using the Lee Handloader kit is extremely fun...and extremely slow. Especially for a complicated round such as 303 Brit (many have commented and commended me on taking on such a task). Anyways, Today I finally Got a chance to get some data in for the rifle. And well...Its kind of weird. To sum up what I did, heres a small break down of what i had:
 
20 rounds prvi partisan 180 grn, soft point

(handholds had the same input: winchester/PPU casings, winchester magnum primer, lee dipper 2.8cc of BLC-2)
 
20 rounds Hornady 174 gr boat tail
20 rounds Speer round nose 180 gr
20 rounds Speer soft point 180 gr

Alright, so now begins the fun. The factory load was to be my control. I measured all of them and got the average OAL and diameter. I basically dissected the bullet to get a feel for what standard i was looking for. Of course, I would build up with this knowledge. Then there was the range...the factory loads went everywhere. I was using paper plates (9 inch circumference) at 100 yards, bench rested. I COULD NOT GET A SINGLE GROUPING 
Then on another plate, i started shooting handholds. To note, the boat tails felt more "predictable" in terms on shooting, and the soft points coming in close second. the round noses seemed to have a weird pattern of grouping low...more on that later.
To make this even more quirky, i also had an idea on playing with the OAL, so long as it did not exceed the max OAL. I understand SMLE have VARIOUS chamber sizes and thus, OAL is hard to gauge for them, how ever, i appears that mine is a little blown out but short. i noticed that all rounds would fit right into the breech just fine, but the length of the bullet on some would prevent the bolt from properly closing. Of course, ejected, set aside. How does this relate? The shorter rounds (75.4 i believe was my estimated average), seemed to be the best. I did not really take too much note on the round noses because i felt that id most likely be loading boat tails and soft points, but i will still retain the data for later use.
Now for the humorous part. I decided "Hey, why not go Olympic shooting with this bad girl?" So, I stood up and shot 100m with an SMLE. And what do you know, ACURRATE GROUPINGS!!!
I took groupings of 5 soft point and 10 boat tail. The soft point scored an AMAZING 1/12 grouping, while the boat tail scored 3" groupings. How i did this better than bench rested with factory ammo, I don't know, i guess it was Pit love (inside joke for any Marines reading this). i continued to send rounds benched after finding this out with the same results as standing.
Now to Questions of a newbie part, now that we got the mad science out of the way. WTH was going on with the factory loads? was i maybe the way the powder ignites or maybe the way the cases expanded? Im trying to figure out how those groupings came to be so foul. I will try to retest to see if it replicates.
 As for the handloads, I believe I know what I must do; for the 174 gr, slowly back down so its a minimum load, slow it down a little so its not spreading as much. the soft points are my scalpel rounds lol. Ultimately, I do wish to make my rifle a shooter, and see what I can do i competition shoots. I do like the BLC-2, and will probably try another powder, but i think BLC will be my standard. Im using the Win. Magnum primers, making a good combo with the BLC, but any other suggestions?  She may be old, but she isn't taking age into account.
Do want to make a shout out to Inspector and the crew at the range. With out the help of those projectiles and priceless advice, wouldn't have any clue as to what I was doing. Was great getting range time with you guys!

Here are the pics to show what's going on. I didn't save all the targets since that this point I just went plinking and stress relieving. I had already done my research for science and was time to play around.
The first pic with markings is my standing.
The other two are the prvi partisan factory Ammo,

When you say "handholds", do you mean "handloads"?

Am I reading this right? You shot groups at 100 yds that measured 1-1/2 to 3 inches from a standing position?

When you say "handholds", do you mean "handloads"?

Yeah autocorrect can sometimes be annoying, case in point. Translate handholds to handloads HAHA

Am I reading this right? You shot groups at 100 yds that measured 1-1/2 to 3 inches from a standing position?

I was just as surprised, to the point where Im just going to take it for what it is. I can account for that one flier as i rushed and jerked the trigger. I use a 3-9x40 scope to spot and when i tried spotting for myself, it wasn't happening. Even in my data book my calls were nowhere near what I thought i was hitting, although i had the right direction (high or low, left or right). The picture is there to show proof (old internet adage of "Pics or it didn't happen"); This target was what I pulled after standing.
I think I need to try again to confirm these holds with this rifle.

I was just as surprised, to the point where Im just going to take it for what it is. I can account for that one flier as i rushed and jerked the trigger. I use a 3-9x40 scope to spot and when i tried spotting for myself, it wasn't happening. Even in my data book my calls were nowhere near what I thought i was hitting, although i had the right direction (high or low, left or right). The picture is there to show proof (old internet adage of "Pics or it didn't happen"); This target was what I pulled after standing.
I think I need to try again to confirm these holds with this rifle.

...

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around your messages.

I see the target. You shot that from an unsupported standing position?
...
You said the ammo looked "blown out". Does that mean the fired shell casings look bigger and bloated than factory ammo?
....
What are "scalpel" rounds?
.....
You shooting an old Lee Enfield bolt rifle? how about a pic?
.....
Were you reloading the fired shells at the range immediately using the Lee loading kit?
Some precision rifle shooters do something like that.
...
Wow

Unsupported, standing. I'm pretty surprised I did this as well. As a side note, I'm hoping this doesn't come off as me bragging 
-
I apologize for my newbie terms. I try to describe things as I see them or use terms I note down for myself (part of my mad scientist methodology  ). As you said, the casing do seem swollen compared to the factory casing and other casings that seemed okay. I only neck size them, but as I learned today from Inspector, I may have to full length resize. I tried inserting the swollen cases into the chamber and they didn't fit well; the bolt wouldn't close all the way or the extractor wouldn't catch.
-
In my data book, i title different loads with different names in reference to their purpose. "Scalpel" rounds is what denotes for match grade rounds. They should be giving me more precise groups in comparison to factory rounds. Again, excuse my madness and newness.
-
I loaded these prior to the range, not at the range. I did use reused brass. I did use some remoil to clean them of any gunk and them use case lube before reloading casings. It seems to work but I do intend to clean them in some acetone and put them through a tumbler. Maybe I stumbled onto something...
-
its a new purchase but I just love the SMLE rifles. It's a BSA Sht LE manufactured in 1917. Barrel has definate muzzle wear but the lands and grooves are in good shape.
-
On a side note, I think I may turn this into a living post and start a blog/YouTube channel to help people getting into shooting and reloading

Neck sizing them for a bolt gun like yours should work fine.
I'm not familiar with that particular load.
I don;t know what your are trying to accomplish but like any problem in life - break it down and work one variable at a time or you can manage.
Charge weight. Bullet seating depth. Components. etc.
It's rare to see soft points as "scalpel" or match rounds. Consistent bullet jackets are formed from the base to the tip with a small hollow cavity or point. This is to produce the best concentricity on the outside diameter of the bullet.

The load seems to work quite well.
I was surprised that the soft points did so well. I figured the boat tails would be closer but I guess I hit the sweet spot with the SP and have to tailor the BTs. I'll keep the same data for the SP and load three sets of BTs; one a lighter load, one previous established load, and one load that's built up.
definately going to post the results. Hopefully I'll get there this sunday
I really appreciate the hints and tips guys. I'm hoping today's data was a weird fluke and got some good info. Research has to be done...FOR SCIENCE!

Interesting thread.
Obviously you have a bit of experience shooting rifles.
Feel free to tell us where you learned how to shoot.
...
RE. Factory ammo, bloated shells, accuracy.....
Usually shells fired from YOUR bolt action rifle will readily fit back into the same gun.
If your cases look bloated when compared to factory ammo, then maybe the chamber is loosey-goosey.
That might explain poor accuracy with factory ammo.
If you reload the cases from your own rifle, they would be much more accurate, simply because the shells have fire formed themselves to the chamber.

Interesting thread.
Obviously you have a bit of experience shooting rifles.
Feel free to tell us where you learned how to shoot.
...
RE. Factory ammo, bloated shells, accuracy.....
Usually shells fired from YOUR bolt action rifle will readily fit back into the same gun.
If your cases look bloated when compared to factory ammo, then maybe the chamber is loosey-goosey.
That might explain poor accuracy with factory ammo.
If you reload the cases from your own rifle, they would be much more accurate, simply because the shells have fire formed themselves to the chamber.

I started a thing!
-
I give credit to Uncle Sam's Misguided Children LOL.
-
Ahhh okay. Got it. Based on this, if I were to full length resize the casing, it would change how the casing expands in the chamber, correct? If so, that would lead me to create another batch with plinking in mind to form those casings to the rifle. I mean, I'm not complaining that I have to shoot more and do more reloading 

I can verify he was standing while shooting. He knows his way around a rifle for sure. Though his backpack is a little worse for wear. 

I sold him 100 rounds of brand new brass and bullets. He told me he did not full length resize the brass before he loaded and shot them. My feeling is one should always FL resize brand new brass before the first use. SMLE's are well known for having large/loose chambers and if you FL size your brass after every use it won't last very long. Neck sizing is recommended after the first fire forming. Case head failures are common with reloads in this cartridge/rifle combination.

I can also verify his results as I watched him bring back his targets and viewed them for myself.

The SMLE is inherently an accurate rifle if you use the correct components with your reloads. Assuming wear on the rifle is within tolerances. Why the commercial ammo is not performing very well is a mystery. But to see his reloads (and his skill) work so well first time off is amazing to me!!! 

I got a pretty good grouping on my pack too :rofl

That was my one fear with loading these rounds; I really did not want a case head separation. I'll try full sizing the bloated casing and see what happens. This is a new aspect of shooting I'm finding (more like stumbling into) that's entertaining...it's also starting to entertain my wallet lol

I got a pretty good grouping on my pack too :rofl

That was my one fear with loading these rounds; I really did not want a case head separation. I'll try full sizing the bloated casing and see what happens. This is a new aspect of shooting I'm finding (more like stumbling into) that's entertaining...it's also starting to entertain my wallet lol

The case head separation typically happens after full length sizing "bloated" cases several times. The FL die works the brass really hard. That is why I recommended just FL sizing the first time and neck sizing each subsequent time. There may come a time where you have to FL size your brass again. I found that after a while the brass starts fitting tightly into the chamber. I have successfully reloaded some of my 303 British brass 8 or 9 times so far. Of course I am shooting light reloads. So the brass isn't stretching as much per shot. Just watch for signs of case head separation on your brass.

To answer your other question regarding powder and light loads....

The Hodgdon's website recommends only using H4895 in a whitepaper they have on their site: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

If you really want to try a really reduced load you can try using Trailboss: http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-Reduced-Loads%20R_P.pdf

If you decide to go to the lead (dark) side, then you open up another world of powder choices. I typically use H4895 and IMR 4198 but mostly the 4198.

With all that said, there is a world of load data out there from people who are doing reduced loads using IMR 4895, IMR 4064, IMR 3031, IMR 4227 and many more. Then there are those who use pistol/shotgun powders in very small quantities to light off a medium to large rifle round. I don't like to recommend recipes as I don't want responsibility for anything happening to your particular gun. I use a 200gr lead round nose boolit with gas check that is sized properly for my rifle to .313.

I recommend you slug your barrel. You might be surprised as some of these old war horses can have barrels up to the .315 range. My rifle slugs out to .311 so I can use a proper .311 jacketed or .313 lead boolit.

Cast Bullets is a whole dimension of reloading that's waiting for me. For right now, I'm going to start slow haha.
I do need to slug the rifle now that I know its quirks, and go from there. Seeing as how I'm working my way into collecting Milsurps, this will be a good starting point.
I'm already in the process of sorting casings for various purposes. I did notice on the bloated cases that the expansion chamber (right terminology?) above the head do have definitive stress marks, where you can see the "ring". Have to keep an eye on that.
As far as powders go, again, going to stick with BLC2 and once I get all the data established, then experiment with other powders. I did however see what others were doing with powder formulas and combinations with projectiles. Interesting to note that the enfields favor the higher weight Bullets.

I'm already in the process of sorting casings for various purposes. I did notice on the bloated cases that the expansion chamber (right terminology?) above the head do have definitive stress marks, where you can see the "ring". Have to keep an eye on that.

Those "stress marks" as you called them are pretty normal for that cartridge. Just keep a close eye on them. The brass will get thin there if it is getting close to failing. Just neck sizing will help the longevity of your brass.

I can verify he was standing while shooting. He knows his way around a rifle for sure. Though his backpack is a little worse for wear. 

I sold him 100 rounds of brand new brass and bullets. He told me he did not full length resize the brass before he loaded and shot them. My feeling is one should always FL resize brand new brass before the first use. SMLE's are well known for having large/loose chambers and if you FL size your brass after every use it won't last very long. Neck sizing is recommended after the first fire forming. Case head failures are common with reloads in this cartridge/rifle combination.

I can also verify his results as I watched him bring back his targets and viewed them for myself.

The SMLE is inherently an accurate rifle if you use the correct components with your reloads. Assuming wear on the rifle is within tolerances. Why the commercial ammo is not performing very well is a mystery. But to see his reloads (and his skill) work so well first time off is amazing to me!!! 

He's got a good guy guiding him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very nice shooting!    You should have brought that out to the vintage rifle match at puuloa!   

On the OAL and length of the bullet question.  Different bullets have different profiles.  The portion of the bullet where it transitions from "pointy" to "straight" will vary with the different bullet types.  Boat tail bullets usually have a longer "pointy" portion with the "straight" shank occurring further down the aspect of the projectile.  Of course, conversely, round nose type projectile have the straight part way up at the tip of the bullet.  This is called "ogive".  You where right not to fire the rounds that would not chamber.  The ogive could have been jamming into the lands and grooves of the barrel.  Depending on your load that could have caused excessive pressure.







In bolt action rifles, usually one may get away with only neck sizing for two or three reloading cycles before the case expands too much to allow easy-ish bolt closure.  In military rifles, chambers may be a little more generous, to allow for fouling and dirt in combat conditions.  I think I have read somewhere that Enfield's are notorious for fairly large chambers.   This maybe the situation here and the cases may not last very many reloadings.  Brass is a funny metal and as it works, by sizing, it actually gets harder and more brittle.  If the chamber is on the really large size, the brass might not last too many cycles.    Watch carefully for case head separation and look for the signs of that and cracked necks.   Advanced reloaders may opt to "anneal" the necks, only the neck,  of cases to have them last more reloading before cracking.  However, if your rifle's chamber is on the large size, that probably wouldn't help much, as the case body will not last too many cycles.  Keep an eye on it.

No real experience with Lee Enfields so I am not too sure about the quirks of reloading them.  The case headspaces off of the rim. so may be you really do need to full size the cases for them to fit back into the chamber.  You could experiment with setting the die up proud, then slowly lowering it into the press, so that it sizes the case minimally; testing as you go to see at what point the case fits into the chamber.  (Don't forget to trim the necks down to correct Case Overall Length)

Check out this article:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/case-head-separation-cause-diagnosis/



For case lube.  It is a good thing to remove all the lube from the cases before firing the rounds.  You want the case to be clean and oil free, so that when the round is fired the case expands, seals the chamber, and the brass "grabs" onto the interior walls of the chamber.  This will greatly reduce the recoil force on the bolt.  In some instances oiled cases can be dangerous and cause excessive force on the bolt lugs. 

Lastly,  Be sure to trim all cases, after sizing, to the correct case lengths.  If your rifle has a real generous chamber, the brass will grow a lot.  You definitely do not want the neck of the case jammed into the lands and grooves of the barrel.   That would be a bad day for sure.

Bushido, you are absolutely correct on that. So, I have been a sponge soaking up knowledge that Inspector has dropped on me, and I'm forever grateful for it. Again, cant express the gratitude he and everyone here deserve.
-
Thanks for the heads up on that Heavies and the support. I figured that that's how OAL played out in the chamber but never thought about the projectile itself. More research and notes to be done. On this next trip, I'll take more detailed notes and post them with results. I'm really liking Hornady's stuff.
As far as trimming cases, Since these are the first series of casings fired through the rifle, I'm going to verify their case length and see what's going on. I'll dissect a casing too, especially a stressed one so I can really learn a thing or two. To also keep my "quasi scientific research" constant, going to use new brass and not the previously fired cases, just to confirm what I have now. What I usually say in such matters, "seems legit". Just to clarify, what did you mean by "anneal" the neck? Is that the method of using a full length die to size just the neck?
-
On a side note, I hope this helps others too, especially someone on the fence about reloading and shooting. Need to start recording and getting that vlog up and running.

He's got a good guy guiding him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

   

Howdy Cat welcome and thanks for sharing. You have the right crew of folks here providing guidance I know them all and they are all class acts knowledgeable in reloading.

Annealing is a form of heat treatment. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)
There is a vast amount of info on web about the process as it relates to cartridge cases.

I hope to start reloading myself in the future and to add a Lee Enfield rifle to my collection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk