Rant.... (Read 13050 times)

DonRow

Rant....
« on: January 12, 2012, 09:53:35 AM »
                                              Why is the majority of people in Hawaii so frikin "Sheepish"??  ::) :o :wacko: I went to the local newspaper site ,and like an idiot, I had to look and the opinion section, God!! it's a good thing the duct tape was close.. I had to put several layers around my head to keep it from exploding...  I'm so sick of the "well my parents, and parents before them told me this is how it is so thats how it is." Crowd here in Hawaii, locals are smarter, and much more conservative  then that. Just really sick of it..... People here really need to educate them selves......

                       There done, any thoughts, comments?? And don't tell me to deal with it, I delt with it for 35 years. :( :P :crazy:

crazy cat

Re: Rant....
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 09:59:43 AM »
They'll make good serfs.

DonRow

Rant....
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 10:12:21 AM »
True, true..

Inspector

Re: Rant....
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 12:12:30 PM »
                                              Why is the majority of people in Hawaii so frikin "Sheepish"??  ::) :o :wacko: I went to the local newspaper site ,and like an idiot, I had to look and the opinion section, God!! it's a good thing the duct tape was close.. I had to put several layers around my head to keep it from exploding...  I'm so sick of the "well my parents, and parents before them told me this is how it is so thats how it is." Crowd here in Hawaii, locals are smarter, and much more conservative  then that. Just really sick of it..... People here really need to educate them selves......

                       There done, any thoughts, comments?? And don't tell me to deal with it, I delt with it for 35 years. :( :P :crazy:
I can't agree more. The thing I found here more in Hawaii than the mainland are those who talk like they are conservative but still vote for a democrat. Don't get me wrong, I believe everyone has the right to vote for who they want. But don't complain about all the bad politicians and them vote them back in! Don't complain about how bad our economy is and how bad Obama is doing in his first term and them turn around and vote for him. I find more and more of this type of thing here. I get guys from work who hate Obama for his politics and then later tell me they are going to vote for him in the next election. Some claim their unions are pressuring them. Or some say "Who else you gonna vote for, a republican?"

Why can't people think for themselves these days?
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

ren

Re: Rant....
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 12:24:04 PM »
The people have no voice...just unions. They create jobs by building things we really dont need, break and rebuild just to create work for themselves...
Deeds Not Words

DonRow

Rant....
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 01:11:25 PM »
Yep, Hawaii, besides being a welfare state is a union state, and what the unions say, go. My dad, hard working his whole life, Is a Reagan republican, this is the first time he voted Democrat for president. His reason, "cause he's from Hawaii" :/ now he regrets it big time. And had to be the one who said "I told you so"

GZire

Re: Rant....
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 03:02:36 PM »
The people have no voice...just unions. They create jobs by building things we really dont need, break and rebuild just to create work for themselves...

We elect bad peeps who cave to the pressure/$$$ and that's why things get built.

ren

Re: Rant....
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 05:22:44 PM »
Well, when you think about it what else can we support besides the military? Tourism? thats it.  Too expensive for agriculture.  We don't react fast enough to the world market so all that is left is to build more shiet.  How about retail market?
Deeds Not Words

DonRow

Rant....
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 05:54:54 PM »
Unions screwed up the ag. Market here, there the ones that drove up cost of sugar with ridicules pensions.

bass monkey

Re: Rant....
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 05:56:24 PM »
Im sure if other things were subsidized as much as some things now, it would give those things a better chance and perhaps be closer to a price range more people could afford

Jl808

Rant....
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 05:57:24 PM »
Just my opinion and no data to present but here it goes....

Hawaii needs to focus on lowering cost of living and lowered barriers to make it easier for local entrepreneurs to start new businesses.  That way, younger folks with energy and new ideas could try out their ideas and generate new businesses or create wealth in the state.

However, entrenched companies do not want competition so they would rather get government to add more barriers and prevent new competition.  People also get so anti-business painting it evil, not realizing that small business entrepreneurs create job opportunities for most people that just want a job.

So instead, younger folks leave while older folks stay making the nanny burden more for the state.

[edit] Granted, the big local companies generate a lot of jobs and revenues for Hawaii so state government tries to protect them. Perhaps that's why they are all we got.  But still... how long could it stay that way if our industries do not change through innovation of smaller companies?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:05:09 PM by Jl808 »
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GZire

Re: Rant....
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2012, 09:15:15 AM »
Well, when you think about it what else can we support besides the military? Tourism? thats it.  Too expensive for agriculture.  We don't react fast enough to the world market so all that is left is to build more shiet.  How about retail market?

I think aquaculture would be great in Hawaii, however with the EPA and Native Hawaiians opposing this, it won't take off.  Just look at the BS the offshore guys have to deal with when raising fish in pens.

clshade

Re: Rant....
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2012, 11:53:32 AM »
Unions drove up the cost of sugar?

You mean by demanding wages in line with the rest of the US and trying to end the near slave labor system of the plantation days? Which was developed while Hawaii was still a kingdom and the "commoner" class of people had only recently been given the right to own land? The sugar barons said "Sure, you can have regular wages... for as long as it takes us to pack up and head to the Philippines where they don't have things like labor laws, yet." A lot of locals think of "those golden good old days" of plenty employment back in the plantation era but forget the terrible working conditions, slave-like class systems and even hangings of the community leaders in the early days. Here on the Big Island the economy flat-lined after the plantations shut down and moved out - and a lot of the "well, grampa said it was this way so its this way" folks are still looking for the next monolithic employer to make everything OK again.

These days the construction unions are a different story. They're just doing what unions do - protecting the income of their members. They don't notice or care that no one is buying new homes since the builders still get paid to build them. Maybe they're trying to build so much stuff that the price finally starts to come down.

[Anthropologist Mode = ON]

Ren nailed it, I think. Tourism is the blessing and curse of the Hawaiian economy and has been since the dawn of inexpensive air travel. Since the 60's the 2 main industries have been tourism (to get people and their money here) and construction (to provide high dollar nests for those who decide to stay.) Like in other places in the US, the prime ag land was built over and the state got high as a kite on the increased tax revenue. Waikiki used to be lo'i you know. Where do you think all that water went before they built the Ala Wai? Perfect for taro. Not so good for tourism, building, high dollar hotels and beaches full of nearly nude beauties looking for a sugar daddy.

Of course, since we have little food production infrastructure left most food needs to be shipped in so prices go up and fluctuate with the value of oil. Hawaii could ~easily~ feed itself - hell, the Big Island alone could feed the rest of the whole state - but that doesn't make money coming and going the way the current food system is set up. You can thank the missionaries for that. As those 5 families took over Hawaii from the monarchy they dismantled the lo'is, potato fields and fish ponds, took control of the fresh water and created both the shipping companies and the grocery stores. In the early days they did this with the help of the monarchy. Kamehameha I leveled the sandalwood forests that used to cover the now barren dry side of the BI and sold them to Japan. He was no fool: he quickly liquidated his assets and made a fortune in the new, international market that he had access to. Since then most of the topsoil from the dry side has eroded into the reef and killed it and that fortune has disappeared into the world banking system... but it still seemed like a good idea at the time.

The State, meanwhile, is also looking for that monolithic thing that will make everything OK again. It isn't interested in a local, diversified agricultural systems that would feed the islands and bring down prices. It wants the new sugar or pineapple cash crop that will sell for MORE than locals will pay for it so it can get the tax revenue. Since that isn't going to happen it pretty much relegates ag land concerns to making sure there are enough flowers for leis, and ti and taro for the tourist luaus. Other than tourism and construction the State is banking on GMO research. That is one of its bets on what is going to be the next Big Thing. Folks who point to the Coqui and Mongoose as reasons why this might not be such a good idea here are generally ignored.

Underlying the whole mess is the fact that only about 6% of the land in Hawaii is available for private ownership. Of the rest, half belongs to one governmental faction or another and half belongs to 1 of 6 land trusts. 5 from the descendants of the Missionaries and 1 "hawaiian" trust - which also has root in the missionary families. Lease agreements used to be simple but now that land value has gone through the roof those leases are, too. Land prices are simply not going to go down to anywhere near reasonable any time soon.

Nowhere and never have the systems set up in Hawaii been for the general well being of the middle class or local economy. Since the days before the kingdom Hawaii has been a starkly divided upper class that "cares for" an enormous lower class that feeds them with their labor. These days that labor is becoming less and less relevant so the "caring for" has fallen to the State. It is a very old pattern here that has little chance of changing with current economic priorities since no one (that matters) is interested in setting up a system where people can work and afford to take care of themselves - outside of the construction and tourism standbys that aren't doing so well right now.

The current business creation environment is toxic to everyone - not only because of the Nanny State problem but because the whole system has been rigged from early on to keep things the way they are and money flowing through the hands of those it already flows through. With the economy grinding to a halt those folks have more than enough cushion to ride it out. Why spoil a good thing just because a few people can't afford to live here anymore? Why encourage small businesses that will just increase competition? Let them eat cake.

Which is why there is a large subset of the locals that pine for the "good old days" when life still sucked but at least you had work and the company would take care of you. Same story as everywhere else. The L&N don't stop here any more, the coal mines are shut down and the youngin's have moved to the city. Or the steel mills have all been shuttered. Family farms are foreclosed and consolidated into big agribusiness. Walmart, Starbuck and McDonalds kill off their local forerunners. The only thing unique about this trend in Hawaii is that some of the vacuum is filled by people with more money than the ones before. Many of them are "job creators" but they are creating jobs somewhere else and coming here to relax.

Welcome to paradise.

[/Anthropologist]
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 12:09:01 PM by clshade »

DonRow

Rant....
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2012, 12:35:20 PM »
Geez "cl" didn't mean to touch a nerve. Big island my have flat lined, but kauai took a dump. When the last sugar plantation closed and I just so happen to know one of these sugar barons you talk about, hell if you seen this guy and his family (the old timers of course) you would never even have guessed that they were one of the biggest land owners on Kauai. Very humble, there dad had them working in the fields from when they were young. Before they shutdown they were losing almost $500,00.00 a month trying to keep up with paying the pensions, etc. Unions, like tourism can also be a blessing and a course I come from a union family I've seen the ups and downs. To save a company they will never negotiate something, look at the teachers union state doesn't have any money yet they still ask for a pay raise and end up getting it, with out expecting high performance from teachers, hell they go up in arms when you tell them teachers need to do a drug test. Sorry but I don't see the benefits of unions. the only thing I see them doing is running company's out of business. Sorry if that touches a nerve but that's my opinion and you don't have to agree with it. Just agree to disagree my friend.

clshade

Re: Rant....
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2012, 01:06:08 PM »
No worries, Don! I don't know everyone or every thing. My perspective comes only from the people I know who have been kind enough to share their stories. I wasn't there for any of it and live where the plantation owners came down hard on the early attempts at organizing labor (Honokaa) so I know that colors my perspective.

We certainly agree that unions have gotten out of hand, that the current environment isn't good for healthy growth of any kind and that most locals don't have the bandwidth to do much about it. Same with the unions: too myopic to understand the larger concerns of the long term.

Thesis and Antithesis. When unions were formed they were a great idea to combat corporations that prioritize profit over the health of the people. It's no surprise that the pendulum has swung to the opposite side of having unions that prioritize personal profit over the health of the company. Neither extreme works and a middle ground has yet to be established. Fun times we live in, eh?

We're still in the growing pains phase of Industrialization, I think, compounded by its unforeseen offspring, Globalization. It hasn't yet settled into a sustainable rhythm that works for everyone to one degree or another. It has to level off at some point. Until then things will change from generation to generation (or faster) and the subset that perceives themselves as less well off than before will long for the good old days and the subset that is well served will progressively plow "forward" until they run out of tracks, too.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 01:13:51 PM by clshade »

DonRow

Rant....
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2012, 01:21:42 PM »
No worries, Don! I don't know everyone or every thing. My perspective comes only from the people I know who have been kind enough to share their stories. I wasn't there for any of it and live where the plantation owners came down hard on the early attempts at organizing labor (Honokaa) so I know that colors my perspective.

We certainly agree that unions have gotten out of hand, that the current environment isn't good for healthy growth of any kind and that most locals don't have the bandwidth to do much about it. Same with the unions: too myopic to understand the larger concerns of the long term.

Thesis and Antithesis. When unions were formed they were a great idea to combat corporations that prioritize profit over the health of the people. It's no surprise that the pendulum has swung to the opposite side of having unions that prioritize personal profit over the health of the company. Neither extreme works and a middle ground has yet to be established. Fun times we live in, eh?

We're still in the growing pains phase of Industrialization, I think, compounded by its unforeseen offspring, Globalization. It hasn't yet settled into a sustainable rhythm that works for everyone to one degree or another. It has to level off at some point. Until then things will change from generation to generation (or faster) and the subset that perceives themselves as less well off than before will long for the good old days and the subset that is well served will progressively plow "forward" until they run out of tracks, too.
I agree brah, I lived the plantation lifestyle myself, and I really wish I could go back to them days, it was really fun. Unions need to back off when times get hard or else the people that they represent will be unemployed. You know what's funny though, how will they get there money if company's start shouting down?

bass monkey

Re: Rant....
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2012, 02:41:40 PM »
Whose the 6 land trusts?
Bishop estate
Daimen estate

clshade

Re: Rant....
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 03:04:39 PM »
Whose the 6 land trusts?
Bishop estate
Daimen estate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_plantations_in_Hawaii#Sugar_and_the_Big_Five

Bishop
Castle & Cooke
Alexander & Baldwin
C. Brewer & Co
Amfac
Theo H. Davies & Co

Land Trusts is probably the wrong term, now that I think about it. The correct legal terms - along with the various related organizations - are beyond me. The Big 5 and Bishop (now Kamehameha Schools, I believe, so as not to be confused with a monolithic land owning force  ::)) are the 6 major land holding entities in the State.

C. Brewer and Bishop were the major holders here on the Big Island and I, unfortunately, know very little about the others. Little enough about C. Brewer and Bishop for that matter. I know Doc Brewer's widow and hang out with a buncha old Kam School grads, though, so I know some.

Ah. Found the actual land ownership stats courtesy of someone's UH Hilo notes posted online. The number have changed some since sugar moved on and the Big 5 divested themselves of some land holdings. Here a lot of that land shifted to Bishop but looks like a significant amount was sold to private owners.

State of Hawaii       28%   
Federal Government        7%
Private            64%
(percentages change constantly but not dramatically so)

Six largest landowners control 40% of private lands)
Big Five
1. Castle & Cook
2. Alexander and Baldwin 
3. C Brewer
4. Theo H. Davis
5. Hackfield (Amfac)

6.  Bishop Estate (a big land owner that is not one of the “big five”)

bass monkey

Re: Rant....
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 03:08:56 PM »
Oh ok I was like estates, like lunalilo homes type. Yeah should have realized you was talking about land owners.

robtmc

Re: Rant....
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 03:22:41 PM »
Or some say "Who else you gonna vote for, a republican?"

Why can't people think for themselves these days?
I think you have it for many right there. 

They are too stupid to understand the media constantly  beats the drum: Democrat good, Republican evil.  They believe it since there is no opposing viewpoint allowed, other than the dreaded Fox news.