Friend and I went to KHSC the other day. I bought my SD9VE and he bought his 1911 9mm SA. I was shooting factory PMC 9MM 115gr Bronze and he was shooting reloads consisting of 3.7gr Clays, 115gr Hornady HAP diameter .355, case trim length .736, OAL 1.125 crimped with Lee crimp die. Primers were MAGTECH Small pistol. While his were accurate, they sounded "funny" compared to my PMC's. there was 1 stovepipe, 1 feed failure, 1 misfire and 4 incidents of the slide failing to stay open after the last shot. Being a reloader myself for about 40 years, I took a look at some of his fired brass. While the brass showed no signs of over pressure the primers looked strange. I've provided a picture of the two if his fired brass compared with my PMC factory brass (PMC is on the bottom):

To me it appears there was some pressure problems but when I checked the Hogdon web site it was clear his loads were at the starting load (we took one of his reloads apart at my house and the powder wighted in at 3.710gr). His brass appears to be Winchester and either military or LEO machine gun brass that he checked, cleaned, resized, trimmed and checked with a cartridge gauge.
The middle example has a hole in in the primer and the one on the top exhibits a small bulge where the firing pin struck it. Tried some in the SD9VE and same results and indications. A couple had a hole where the firing pin struck, the other a small outward bulge which pretty much rules out pistol probs (his gun shot the PMC's with no trouble. Nice clean firing pin divots. A PMC fired from his gun is on the bottom).
).

Whatcha think.... I'm baffled 

Isn't Clays a really fast powder? I'm guessing that it's on the faster end of the 9mm load data.

3.7 grains might be at or above the maximum loads for 115 grain jacketed bullets.

Also, aren't the HAP usually on the larger side? I think they were intended for 38/357 bores, right?

Isn't Clays a really fast powder? I'm guessing that it's on the faster end of the 9mm load data.

3.7 grains might be at or above the maximum loads for 115 grain jacketed bullets.

Also, aren't the HAP usually on the larger side? I think they were intended for 38/357 bores, right?

Hmmmmm maybe. Hogdon load table for the 9mm, hollow point jacketed said 3.7gr start load. The HAP diameter is .355 per Hornady and my measurements BUT it does look like they were really pushing the envelope.... gonna abandon this load... might do tite group....

Hmmmmm maybe. Hogdon load table for the 9mm, hollow point jacketed said 3.7gr start load. The HAP diameter is .355 per Hornady and my measurements BUT it does look like they were really pushing the envelope.... gonna abandon this load... might do tite group....

Which clays was it?


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Isn't Clays a really fast powder? I'm guessing that it's on the faster end of the 9mm load data.

3.7 grains might be at or above the maximum loads for 115 grain jacketed bullets.

Also, aren't the HAP usually on the larger side? I think they were intended for 38/357 bores, right?

I think you are on the right track here. Clays is a really fast powder with a really narrow range in use. And it is known for pressure spikes. Not saying for sure that is what is happening. I would use Clays for shotgun and revolver loads. About the fastest powder I use in 9mm is Titegroup and VV N320.

I am not always sure about using the primer as a sign of pressure. Here is why, if you use soft primers like Federal you will see flattening sooner than with a harder primer. Also, I have never used Magtech primers so I don't know how soft or hard or consistent they are. Most punctured primers are due to the firing pin puncturing the primer. Are Magtech primers soft? Or maybe inconsistent in hardness and thickness? I don't know. But primers are not always a good sign of pressure.

Too fast a powder can cause the functioning problems you saw. And if it things are close you may be on the ragged edge of it maight function most of the time but not all the time. Upping the load to the maximum might fix the functioning issues but I wouldn't want to risk the pressure spike I have read about. Especially since powder is so available and inexpensive these days.

Let us know what you decide to do.

I think you are on the right track here. Clays is a really fast powder with a really narrow range in use. And it is known for pressure spikes. Not saying for sure that is what is happening. I would use Clays for shotgun and revolver loads. About the fastest powder I use in 9mm is Titegroup and VV N320.

I am not always sure about using the primer as a sign of pressure. Here is why, if you use soft primers like Federal you will see flattening sooner than with a harder primer. Also, I have never used Magtech primers so I don't know how soft or hard or consistent they are. Most punctured primers are due to the firing pin puncturing the primer. Are Magtech primers soft? Or maybe inconsistent in hardness and thickness? I don't know. But primers are not always a good sign of pressure.

Too fast a powder can cause the functioning problems you saw. And if it things are close you may be on the ragged edge of it maight function most of the time but not all the time. Upping the load to the maximum might fix the functioning issues but I wouldn't want to risk the pressure spike I have read about. Especially since powder is so available and inexpensive these days.

Let us know what you decide to do.

I agree with ^^this guy.

I'd also like to add that it is possible that your friend used small rifle primers or magnum pistol primers. If so, the harder cup might not flatten and show normal pressure signs

My speculation would be to check that firing pin protrusion is in spec and also check for any burrs or sharp spots on the pin.   Could it be that if the magtech primers are soft or thin and a sharp spot or long protrusion is causing primer piercing?  puka in the primer could cause enough gas escape that the cycling of the action is compromised.

I don't think it could be rifle primers by mistake, because rifle primers are much thicker and harder to withstand rifle pressure.   

Was the brass military crimped?  Was the crimp swaged out?  I've messed up primers before because the crimp wasn't sufficiently removed.  I never fired those rounds though, so I don't know what effect that would have. 

Wow really got me thinking... have read that some think the Magtech is soft, others say they're hard while others say they are in the middle, comparable to Winchester. Some like, some hate. They are made in Brazil. I've never had or heard of any problems till now. The powder he used is Clays, a shotgun powder but like I said Hogdon shows it as a load for 9mm and 115gr Hp bullets.
As for the brass I can't say but he said seating them on his Dillon 550 was pretty nice and all were slightly below flush. I looked at the brass and it looks quite nice. Checked his press and it's set up correctly.
He confirmed the primers were pistol.
As for firing pin probs I don't think it's the culprit. My pistol was getting the same "hole" as his SA 1911. Not many, about ten between us. Commercial ammo worked fine ( commercial ammo PMC 115gr, the left hand example in the attachment). All primer strikes were uniform for both guns.
Beginning to think the prob is the powder. I'm gonna see what he has and go from there. I know he has tightgroup, 231, bullseye and the new unique. Gonna load at start and go from there. What would you guys recommend? 

Wow really got me thinking... have read that some think the Magtech is soft, others say they're hard while others say they are in the middle, comparable to Winchester. Some like, some hate. They are made in Brazil. I've never had or heard of any problems till now. The powder he used is Clays, a shotgun powder but like I said Hogdon shows it as a load for 9mm and 115gr Hp bullets.
As for the brass I can't say but he said seating them on his Dillon 550 was pretty nice and all were slightly below flush. I looked at the brass and it looks quite nice. Checked his press and it's set up correctly.
He confirmed the primers were pistol.
As for firing pin probs I don't think it's the culprit. My pistol was getting the same "hole" as his SA 1911. Not many, about ten between us. Commercial ammo worked fine ( commercial ammo PMC 115gr, the left hand example in the attachment). All primer strikes were uniform for both guns.
Beginning to think the prob is the powder. I'm gonna see what he has and go from there. I know he has tightgroup, 231, bullseye and the new unique. Gonna load at start and go from there. What would you guys recommend? 

I'm using BE in my 9mm but with 147 grain coated lead. 3.2 grains is an accurate load for me.  I am only using BE because it is what I have a lot of.  Many say there are better choices, Unique I've heard recommendations for, it fills the case better. 

Maybe try a few starting loads with the other powders and the same primers and see if there is still an issue with the piercing.  Maybe a bad lot of primers?  PMC primers are good and cheap primers, I've used bricks with no issues (other than a few dudds) in rifle and pistol.    Very accurate rifle primer with small SD.

Wow really got me thinking... have read that some think the Magtech is soft, others say they're hard while others say they are in the middle, comparable to Winchester. Some like, some hate. They are made in Brazil. I've never had or heard of any problems till now. The powder he used is Clays, a shotgun powder but like I said Hogdon shows it as a load for 9mm and 115gr Hp bullets.
As for the brass I can't say but he said seating them on his Dillon 550 was pretty nice and all were slightly below flush. I looked at the brass and it looks quite nice. Checked his press and it's set up correctly.
He confirmed the primers were pistol.
As for firing pin probs I don't think it's the culprit. My pistol was getting the same "hole" as his SA 1911. Not many, about ten between us. Commercial ammo worked fine ( commercial ammo PMC 115gr, the left hand example in the attachment). All primer strikes were uniform for both guns.
Beginning to think the prob is the powder. I'm gonna see what he has and go from there. I know he has tightgroup, 231, bullseye and the new unique. Gonna load at start and go from there. What would you guys recommend? 

TG, first choice
then W231
haven't tried bullseye or new unique

Could the slide failing to lock back after the last shot be a mag issue?  I had this symptom with a Glock but was due to the factory 10 rd. mag.
 I don't know about Clays powder specs like the other guys responding, but were primers seated at the proper depth? 

Looking at the pics, can't see it too clearly though, looks like the primers are too thin.  The one that has the bubble on it looks like the firing pin struck it and the pressure from the round firing bulged the dent back the opposite way.  The one with the hole looks like the brass is blown outward around the edges.

I'm thinking bad primers.

Was the brass military crimped?  Was the crimp swaged out?  I've messed up primers before because the crimp wasn't sufficiently removed.  I never fired those rounds though, so I don't know what effect that would have.

i would suspect this as a potential problem

Ok, I think I know what is happening here. 

9mm and semi autos in general head space off the case mouth.  SAAMI specs for 9mm Luger, case length is 754" maximum, .744" minimum.  If you trimmed the case to .736" then it is way below minimum.  There is at least .008" of excessive gap between the back of the cartridge and the face of the breech.  This gap is not enough to prevent the pin from firing the round, in some of the instances,  however, when the round is fired, the case expands and sticks to the walls of the chamber(like it should) and is not supported at the rear by the breech face.  This leaves absolutely no support for the primer cup and the dented primer blows out.
 



http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

Ok, I think I know what is happening here. 

9mm and semi autos in general head space off the case mouth.  SAAMI specs for 9mm Luger, case length is 754" maximum, .744" minimum.  If you trimmed the case to .736" then it is way below minimum.  There is at least .008" of excessive gap between the back of the cartridge and the face of the breech.  This gap is not enough to prevent the pin from firing the round, in some of the instances,  however, when the round is fired, the case expands and sticks to the walls of the chamber(like it should) and is not supported at the rear by the breech face.  This leaves absolutely no support for the primer cup and the dented primer blows out.
 



http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm

sounds logical to me...

Do you stick your finished rounds in a headspace gauge to ensure that they will chamber correctly and are sized correctly? I check every single round after I complete a batch.

Do you stick your finished rounds in a headspace gauge to ensure that they will chamber correctly and are sized correctly? I check every single round after I complete a batch.

For pistol rounds I do not.  I generally spot check the specs on a few cases, load, and shoot.  I have never trimmed a straight wall pistol case they tend not to grow much, and usually shrink.  they tend to get lost before they wear out, or the neck cracks in which case I dump them.  I am more worried about the bullets ojive and ensuring it is not jammed into the lands on pistol rounds.  Some glocks have a long throat and loads that are tailored for a glock barrel may not fit into other 9mms. I ran into this once when a friend let me try some of his glock fodder.  Closed the slide on my CZ75 and it wouldn't go into battery.  Bumped it open only to have the bullet pulled out of the case and powder dumped all inside my action.  I was  is wrong with your reloads!!!?  lol!

Rifle bottle necked rounds are carefully measured sized and trimmed to spec, and spot checked for proper dimension.

For pistol rounds I do not.  I generally spot check the specs on a few cases, load, and shoot.  I have never trimmed a straight wall pistol case they tend not to grow much, and usually shrink.  they tend to get lost before they wear out, or the neck cracks in which case I dump them.  I am more worried about the bullets ojive and ensuring it is not jammed into the lands on pistol rounds.  Some glocks have a long throat and loads that are tailored for a glock barrel may not fit into other 9mms. I ran into this once when a friend let me try some of his glock fodder.  Closed the slide on my CZ75 and it wouldn't go into battery.  Bumped it open only to have the bullet pulled out of the case and powder dumped all inside my action.  I was  is wrong with your reloads!!!?  lol!

Rifle bottle necked rounds are carefully measured sized and trimmed to spec, and spot checked for proper dimension.

we check every single round in a case gauge
and we do not trim pistol cases like heavies says

we check every single round in a case gauge
and we do not trim pistol cases like heavies says

As do I. I checked about 5 of his reloads and they are ok according to the case gauge. 

Do you stick your finished rounds in a headspace gauge to ensure that they will chamber correctly and are sized correctly? I check every single round after I complete a batch.

Yes he does and they appear to be good....