^^^Nice Old Guy, I appreciate the link.  I'll need to check when I go home.............work nanny is preventing me from going to the site.

What's HRA's or anyone's for that matter; take on Beth Fukumoto (R)? I haven't been able to get an email or contact info so I can address 2a issues.

What's HRA's or anyone's for that matter; take on Beth Fukumoto (R)? I haven't been able to get an email or contact info so I can address 2a issues.

She never completed a survey and has no past voting record to judge. So, she's a great big ?

HiCarry I respect your opinion. I do also appreciate that you folks are sharing your experiences with us. I think that insight such as that is extremely helpful and much better as it allows a more transparent view of the workings of Government.


Now that being said; I just don't happen to agree with your assessments. 


Yes I get that Caldwell was a lame duck, however are we to vote for someone who does not command enough respect that the people that work for him will do what he says?  Are we to vote for someone who is ineffective?  Or are we to consider that he really was not as interested as he led you to believe?  Has anyone ever seen Caldwell at the Shooting Sports Fair, the Gun Show, the range, a firearms store?  I personally have not heard of that happening.

How do you "command respect" from City employees that know your tenure is limited and that they are protected by a union that makes it virtually impossible to fire anyone?....As for attending the SSF, Caldwell was there; the Gun Show, there. And he was there (both events) last year when there wasn't an election going on.....

With regards to not knowing how "quickly" Government works I again disagree.  I have worked in the private sector with City, State, and Federal Governments.  I see how quickly things get done when the people in charge want things to be done. 

My question to you is how long do you think is a reasonable time to affect change if you are the Mayor and you already have a budget of several hundred thousand dollars for a park sector?  Is one year reasonable?  Are you talking two years, three years?  What is reasonable to get a toilet cleaned regularly at Kokohead?  What about put up the small housing structure that you mentioned?

I don't know....but, again, what I personally witnessed was someone who was willing to go to bat for "us" and "our" range when he knew he was going to be fighting an uphill battle and dealing with individuals he had to work with that were going to be as difficult and obstructionist as possible. I work for private industry and work with both state and county agencies, who are constantly amazed at what we get done with the handful of staff we have when they cannot manage their projects with hundreds of staff. And again, I witnessed a demeanor and tenacity, as well as a business acumen that I rarely see in government.

We as taxpayers must demand accountability.  I agree that none of the candidates are our perfect person, but I do feel that the actions are not living up to the hype.  I will again say; I certainly hope that if Caldwell wins that I am totally wrong about him and his support of 2A issues. 

I think we'll all be happy with Caldwell (in regards to pro 2A issues...) if he gets elected.....

Aloha

How do you "command respect" from City employees that know your tenure is limited and that they are protected by a union that makes it virtually impossible to fire anyone?....As for attending the SSF, Caldwell was there; the Gun Show, there. And he was there (both events) last year when there wasn't an election going on.....

I don't know....but, again, what I personally witnessed was someone who was willing to go to bat for "us" and "our" range when he knew he was going to be fighting an uphill battle and dealing with individuals he had to work with that were going to be as difficult and obstructionist as possible. I work for private industry and work with both state and county agencies, who are constantly amazed at what we get done with the handful of staff we have when they cannot manage their projects with hundreds of staff. And again, I witnessed a demeanor and tenacity, as well as a business acumen that I rarely see in government.
I think we'll all be happy with Caldwell (in regards to pro 2A issues...) if he gets elected.....

Aloha

HiCarry we all know what lame ducks are here, however you have to still command the respect, or at the very least have the people who work for you do what you say.  To say that because someone's term is limited, or that the workers are protected by unions and thus cannot get things done is a cop out.  We elect people to get things done and if they are not able to get things done, then why are we sending them to try?  This is the challenge with those who we elect.

I'm no fan of Abercrombie, but I respect that he has taken a stance with regards to the HSTA.  Unpopular by many, but he's making an attempt.



We all want someone who is pro 2A, but if we follow your logic, then KPD/HPD/MPD/etc who are all public workers run the Govt and that is far from the truth.

We, or at least I, want to send people who can get things done.

She never completed a survey and has no past voting record to judge. So, she's a great big ?

Well, I found an email address on her flyer. beth@bethfukumoto.com
She responded to my email asking if she thought current gun laws were adequate in Hawaii. She said that we didn't need to strengthen current laws and that she didn't believe in over regulating law abiding people.

HiCarry we all know what lame ducks are here, however you have to still command the respect, or at the very least have the people who work for you do what you say.  To say that because someone's term is limited, or that the workers are protected by unions and thus cannot get things done is a cop out.  We elect people to get things done and if they are not able to get things done, then why are we sending them to try?  This is the challenge with those who we elect.

I'm no fan of Abercrombie, but I respect that he has taken a stance with regards to the HSTA.  Unpopular by many, but he's making an attempt.



We all want someone who is pro 2A, but if we follow your logic, then KPD/HPD/MPD/etc who are all public workers run the Govt and that is far from the truth.

We, or at least I, want to send people who can get things done.

It is not a "cop out" to say that as "Acting Mayor" for 2 months Caldwell was not able to do as much as he wanted, in large part due to the attitude and unwillingness of the staff hired by Mufi....I got the distinct impression that the Parks guy and legal counsel were going to do anything they could to prevent the City moving forward on the range project....we did not elect Mr. Caldwell he was Acting Mayor  when Mufi stepped down....Caldwell was forced to work with those Mufi hired/appointed/choose and tried (at least in my personal opinion based on my observations) to do what he could in the limited time he had....to say that he was ineffective because he couldn't get anything done despite the obvious problems inherent in inheriting someone else's work team and the limited time frame he had to work with is IMHO, a little unrealistic.

I think your analogy misses the mark....I didn't say the unions ran the government, but they do heavily influence the political process and can make it very difficult to effect change due to restrictive disciplinary processes and such....had Caldwell had more time, maybe he could have replaced those who tried to stall the progress. But, I can guarantee you that the individuals knew that there was nothing Caldwell could do in terms of employment consequences in the short time he was Acting Mayor and that they used that fact to basically do whatever they wanted knowing they were essentially immune from any meaningful disciplinary actions. By your reasoning folks like Sam Slom and Ken Ito, both staunch 2A supporters who actively work with us to further our causes are ineffective and we should just throw them out of office 'cause they haven't been able to get us concealed carry, repeal the 10 round magazine limits and a whole host of other issues on our wish list....

I get it...you don't like Caldwell and prefer Ben, who has now flopped on his initial support of rail. Personally, I like a candidate who says what he means and does what he says.....not someone who makes a 180 degree change in his platform and then tries to appear as if he's the one who's been consistent in his message. You can disagree with my assessment all you like, that is indeed your prerogative. After all, I am sure all your experience dealing with the politics of Hawaii, your endless efforts to work with the current legislators, and with those candidates more favorable to our positions, along with your years of testifying at the multitude of legislative hearings, and countless hours of volunteering for Hawaii's pro-gun organizations offers you a much better perspective than mine, but, again, all I will say is that, in my opinion, Caldwell is a better choice in terms of 2A issues than Ben. You can take my assessment or leave it, but that's my opinion.

It is not a "cop out" to say that as "Acting Mayor" for 2 months Caldwell was not able to do as much as he wanted, in large part due to the attitude and unwillingness of the staff hired by Mufi....I got the distinct impression that the Parks guy and legal counsel were going to do anything they could to prevent the City moving forward on the range project....we did not elect Mr. Caldwell he was Acting Mayor  when Mufi stepped down....Caldwell was forced to work with those Mufi hired/appointed/choose and tried (at least in my personal opinion based on my observations) to do what he could in the limited time he had....to say that he was ineffective because he couldn't get anything done despite the obvious problems inherent in inheriting someone else's work team and the limited time frame he had to work with is IMHO, a little unrealistic.

I think your analogy misses the mark....I didn't say the unions ran the government, but they do heavily influence the political process and can make it very difficult to effect change due to restrictive disciplinary processes and such....had Caldwell had more time, maybe he could have replaced those who tried to stall the progress. But, I can guarantee you that the individuals knew that there was nothing Caldwell could do in terms of employment consequences in the short time he was Acting Mayor and that they used that fact to basically do whatever they wanted knowing they were essentially immune from any meaningful disciplinary actions. By your reasoning folks like Sam Slom and Ken Ito, both staunch 2A supporters who actively work with us to further our causes are ineffective and we should just throw them out of office 'cause they haven't been able to get us concealed carry, repeal the 10 round magazine limits and a whole host of other issues on our wish list....

I get it...you don't like Caldwell and prefer Ben, who has now flopped on his initial support of rail. Personally, I like a candidate who says what he means and does what he says.....not someone who makes a 180 degree change in his platform and then tries to appear as if he's the one who's been consistent in his message. You can disagree with my assessment all you like, that is indeed your prerogative. After all, I am sure all your experience dealing with the politics of Hawaii, your endless efforts to work with the current legislators, and with those candidates more favorable to our positions, along with your years of testifying at the multitude of legislative hearings, and countless hours of volunteering for Hawaii's pro-gun organizations offers you a much better perspective than mine, but, again, all I will say is that, in my opinion, Caldwell is a better choice in terms of 2A issues than Ben. You can take my assessment or leave it, but that's my opinion.

HiCarry - Is it wrong to ask that our elected representatives make efforts that we as voters feel are important?  Is it wrong to ask that they be effective?  The persons you mentioned have actively made efforts and have made changes in the local political scene.  Are you saying that Slom and Ito never got anything accomplished?...............because that's what it sounds like you are saying. 

There are always people working for you that you don't hire.  This is true in private as well as the public sector.  I do greatly disagree with what you are saying about being an effective leader however.  If you are the boss and you ask your workers to do something and they don't do it, then you write them up.  I'm sure you, in whatever your capacity, have somewhat the same system and again this is true for public or private sectors.  When people are ineffective, then you keep increasing the pressure according to whatever collective bargaining/master agreement is in place.  The problem is the public sector seems to draw people who are unable/unwilling to grasp this concept.  I point to the Regents at UH and how they've consistently dealt with Chancellors, Presidents, etc. in the past...........it's pretty shameful.  I feel that if you want to be the Man, then you need to act like it.  If you can't lead, then you need to get out of the way.



With regards to your pointing to your activities in the political arena I acknoweldge that you far outweigh anything I have attempted or accomplished.  However I find it distressing that you denigrate what I do on a daily basis with City, State, Federal, and private organizations.  You seem to feel that I have no idea how things work in the political arena when building things.  I will put my experience up against yours any day of the week.  You seem to feel that the process can and always will take forever, yet there are things in the news right now such as the Karsten Thot Bridge that prove otherwise.  From inpsection, to shut down to emergency repairs it shows how quickly things can and do get done when the political pressure is applied correctly.

When the State & County want to make things happen they can, unfortunately it only happens if they feel that there will be a lawsuit or someone (child or senior citizen) gets hurt and it's in the news (think back to the mid intersection lights that get put up seemingly over night).

I have always been consistent whom I do or do not support and have stated so openly as well as stating the reasons why.  So when you do things such as now mention that amongst other things you don't like Ben (which is fine) because you say he's changing his stance on Rail............why not come out and list that in the beginning?  I will say this though, I first was a complete pro-Rail supporter until I actually read the EIS and other C&C documentation regarding the project.  Based on that and the alternates proposed I now fully feel that the Rail system will not work and will be a huge drain on the C&C's resources for the next 5, 6, 7+ decades.  Has it occured to you that maybe, just maybe the same thing happened with Ben?  Maybe all the benefits that the pro-Rail people have been touting maybe just aren't true?  That the stated 10,000 jobs that these guys promised is an outright lie (hint according to my sources Kiewit laid off about 30 people with the shutdown...................30 vs. 10,000 hmmmmmm...................and the people pushing this forward are who again?).

In my mind there is nothing wrong with changing you mind based on new or valid information (you may remember that I said I hope I am wrong about Caldwell if he gets elected), however when people out and out lie to you and thing you are too stupid to figure it out, that really gets my goat.

^^^Your experience with Caldwell laying down the law with his subordinates I think is great.  However I just hope he was able to follow up (and yes again I do realize that as a lame duck his time was limited, but hopefully he was able to make an impact with regards to that).

Here's a novel idea.

Vote for whoever the hell you want and quit arguing about it.

whew! +1 on that!

Here's a novel idea.

Vote for whoever the hell you want and quit arguing about it.

Here's a novel idea - STFU if you don't have anything to contribute to the thread discussing political candidates to support......or maybe you suggest folks vote without entertaining the various pros and cons of the candidates? I may not agree with GZ, nor he with me, but the free exchange of information and opinions about the candidates can only serve to allow a more informed decision when voting. Or do think that's a bad thing? 

 

HiCarry - Is it wrong to ask that our elected representatives make efforts that we as voters feel are important?  Is it wrong to ask that they be effective?  The persons you mentioned have actively made efforts and have made changes in the local political scene.  Are you saying that Slom and Ito never got anything accomplished?...............because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

No, it isn't wrong to ask that we hold our elected officials accountable. But you seem to have it out for Caldwell. By that I mean that you initially questioned his true 2A support. I suggested that he was genuine in his support based on my observations. Then, you again called into question his 2A support because he didn't get anything done while he was either Managing director (for which I suggested he was not really in a position to advance his own agenda but rather that of the then Mayor, Mufi Hanneman) or Acting Mayor (for which I suggested that circumstances, including short time in office and generally obstructionist employees, remnants of the past administration, conspired to prevent him from accomplishing all that he wanted). I did not say Slom or Ito never accomplished anything, but rather using your logic, that since they didn't accomplish everything they wanted that their 2A support should be as questionable as you tried to infer Caldwell's was.

There are always people working for you that you don't hire.  This is true in private as well as the public sector.  I do greatly disagree with what you are saying about being an effective leader however.  If you are the boss and you ask your workers to do something and they don't do it, then you write them up.  I'm sure you, in whatever your capacity, have somewhat the same system and again this is true for public or private sectors.  When people are ineffective, then you keep increasing the pressure according to whatever collective bargaining/master agreement is in place.  The problem is the public sector seems to draw people who are unable/unwilling to grasp this concept.  I point to the Regents at UH and how they've consistently dealt with Chancellors, Presidents, etc. in the past...........it's pretty shameful.  I feel that if you want to be the Man, then you need to act like it.  If you can't lead, then you need to get out of the way.

While I agree that given enough time it is possible to go thru the disciplinary process of even the more restrictive CBA. But that was not the case with Caldwell. What was he going to do, write up the Parks Director and legal counsel, submit it, wait for the disciplinary hearing...oh wait, by then his two months is up. In order to "...keep increasing the pressure...." you must have the necessary time frame to as proscribed in the CBA....often those things take months, if not years to arbitrate and/or litigate. Caldwell didn't have that luxury of time and should not, IMHO, be judged negatively because of that.

With regards to your pointing to your activities in the political arena I acknowledge that you far outweigh anything I have attempted or accomplished.  However I find it distressing that you denigrate what I do on a daily basis with City, State, Federal, and private organizations.  You seem to feel that I have no idea how things work in the political arena when building things.  I will put my experience up against yours any day of the week.  You seem to feel that the process can and always will take forever, yet there are things in the news right now such as the Karsten Thot Bridge that prove otherwise.  From inpsection, to shut down to emergency repairs it shows how quickly things can and do get done when the political pressure is applied correctly.

When the State & County want to make things happen they can, unfortunately it only happens if they feel that there will be a lawsuit or someone (child or senior citizen) gets hurt and it's in the news (think back to the mid intersection lights that get put up seemingly over night).

I do not think that it always takes forever to get things done. I realize and accept that sometimes the City can move with amazing speed when properly motivated. By the same token, you must realize that such speedy responses to problems are generally the exception and not the rule. And I did not mean to denigrate you or your experience. I have been doing this a long time now, and think I have a better insight than many others. From my perspective it was you denigrating my experiences and opinions by constantly using changing measures for which to find some way to fault or call into question Caldwell's true 2A support.

I have always been consistent whom I do or do not support and have stated so openly as well as stating the reasons why.  So when you do things such as now mention that amongst other things you don't like Ben (which is fine) because you say he's changing his stance on Rail............why not come out and list that in the beginning?  I will say this though, I first was a complete pro-Rail supporter until I actually read the EIS and other C&C documentation regarding the project.  Based on that and the alternates proposed I now fully feel that the Rail system will not work and will be a huge drain on the C&C's resources for the next 5, 6, 7+ decades.  Has it occured to you that maybe, just maybe the same thing happened with Ben?  Maybe all the benefits that the pro-Rail people have been touting maybe just aren't true?  That the stated 10,000 jobs that these guys promised is an outright lie (hint according to my sources Kiewit laid off about 30 people with the shutdown...................30 vs. 10,000 hmmmmmm...................and the people pushing this forward are who again?).

In my mind there is nothing wrong with changing you mind based on new or valid information (you may remember that I said I hope I am wrong about Caldwell if he gets elected), however when people out and out lie to you and thing you are too stupid to figure it out, that really gets my goat.

I point out Ben's flip flopping to illustrate that your preferred candidate has his own issues, which many feel indicate a dishonest, self-serving politician. I purposefully tried to keep my issues and opinions focused on the 2A issues and admitted early on that rail was a complicated and controversial issue with experts espousing opinions on both sides. I too don't necessarily have a problem with changing your mind in light of new evidence or information....I don't personally think that Ben had a change of heart based on evidence not available to him early on, but that is conjecture on my part and is not related to his 2A stance, so it will be the last time I mention it. My disfavor of him is based on his 2A support, or lack thereof. Was Ben at the SSF? The gun show in March? No. Was he quoted in the paper a few years ago as supporting yearly reregistration and restricting ammo sales? Did he say he wasn't really in support of more gun control laws (except, apparently, those just mentioned) but that he wasn't going to jump in front of a bus if someone else tried to get them passed? Yes to both.

The bottom line, again, for me is that based on my experience and personal observations, Caldwell's 2A support is genuine and not a ploy to garner votes and then disregard after he gets elected. Do I believe that his inability to get the changes he wanted for the range indicate he's trying to pull a fast one on "us?" No.

I respect your opinions and your right to voice them. I disagree with your conclusions that his failure to get the range improvements somehow discredit his actions to date in support of 2A issues, or that it somehow indicates he's a poor leader or incapable of getting things done. I know your position, you know mine...it may be time to agree to disagree.

I appreciate the spirited conversation and the attempt to educate others on what you think are important attributes of our elected officials. I think such debate is good and provides the electorate with more information, which is necessary in order to make a more informed decision. Thank you. 

Here's a novel idea.

Vote for whoever the hell you want and quit arguing about it.

I think this is a healthy debate for voters like myself to see the underlying issues. From ads and media all I ever see is that Cayetano is anti rail and Caldwell is for rail. There must be more to a candidate than that.

Here's a novel idea - STFU if you don't have anything to contribute to the thread discussing political candidates to support......or maybe you suggest folks vote without entertaining the various pros and cons of the candidates? I may not agree with GZ, nor he with me, but the free exchange of information and opinions about the candidates can only serve to allow a more informed decision when voting. Or do think that's a bad thing?

You're welcome to try and make me stfu, you punk.

Damn, running out of 

 

No, it isn't wrong to ask that we hold our elected officials accountable. But you seem to have it out for Caldwell. By that I mean that you initially questioned his true 2A support. I suggested that he was genuine in his support based on my observations. Then, you again called into question his 2A support because he didn't get anything done while he was either Managing director (for which I suggested he was not really in a position to advance his own agenda but rather that of the then Mayor, Mufi Hanneman) or Acting Mayor (for which I suggested that circumstances, including short time in office and generally obstructionist employees, remnants of the past administration, conspired to prevent him from accomplishing all that he wanted). I did not say Slom or Ito never accomplished anything, but rather using your logic, that since they didn't accomplish everything they wanted that their 2A support should be as questionable as you tried to infer Caldwell's was.

Again point taken about Kirk being #2 and being a person who ethically should be following the lead of the Mayor.  As for the logic with Slom/Ito I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that my logic says Slom/Ito not accomplishing everything they want means they are questionable.  I am saying that as #2, as acting Mayor when Mufi was away, and finally as interim Mayor, Kirk is the person who is to lead and later set policy. 

I'm sorry, but again as #2 and later #1 in the City, we need people to lead and we need to quite making excuses.

While I agree that given enough time it is possible to go thru the disciplinary process of even the more restrictive CBA. But that was not the case with Caldwell. What was he going to do, write up the Parks Director and legal counsel, submit it, wait for the disciplinary hearing...oh wait, by then his two months is up. In order to "...keep increasing the pressure...." you must have the necessary time frame to as proscribed in the CBA....often those things take months, if not years to arbitrate and/or litigate. Caldwell didn't have that luxury of time and should not, IMHO, be judged negatively because of that.

I do not think that it always takes forever to get things done. I realize and accept that sometimes the City can move with amazing speed when properly motivated. By the same token, you must realize that such speedy responses to problems are generally the exception and not the rule. And I did not mean to denigrate you or your experience. I have been doing this a long time now, and think I have a better insight than many others. From my perspective it was you denigrating my experiences and opinions by constantly using changing measures for which to find some way to fault or call into question Caldwell's true 2A support.

If Kirk fails to follow policy, then IMHO yes he should be judged negatively.  All people are to be held accountable to the Voters.  If the #2 and later #1 in the City does not follow the CBA or pursue action against persons who do not follow his direction, then what does that say to the rest of the City?  It says you can get away with anything.  If it takes years to arbitrate or litigate, then that means no one ever gets held accountable for their actions or lack of action.............and that is a sad sad thing.

Now you say that I was denigrating your experience and now that I look back, maybe I was.  However I will say this...............if you don't put out your experiences, then how are you to expect us, the uniformed, to support your point of view?  I think we can agree that I have constantly put out my experience as reasons why I chose to look at things.............may not be right , but I do try to let people know why I'm coming from that point of view.  (BTW I do appreciate that you are getting out some stuff that I hadn't heard before such as your folks' meeting with the politicals.)

Speedy responses not the norm.............definitely.  I wish Govt could work with that speed...............a lot of times I wish my company could react faster too.

I point out Ben's flip flopping to illustrate that your preferred candidate has his own issues, which many feel indicate a dishonest, self-serving politician. I purposefully tried to keep my issues and opinions focused on the 2A issues and admitted early on that rail was a complicated and controversial issue with experts espousing opinions on both sides. I too don't necessarily have a problem with changing your mind in light of new evidence or information....I don't personally think that Ben had a change of heart based on evidence not available to him early on, but that is conjecture on my part and is not related to his 2A stance, so it will be the last time I mention it. My disfavor of him is based on his 2A support, or lack thereof. Was Ben at the SSF? The gun show in March? No. Was he quoted in the paper a few years ago as supporting yearly reregistration and restricting ammo sales? Did he say he wasn't really in support of more gun control laws (except, apparently, those just mentioned) but that he wasn't going to jump in front of a bus if someone else tried to get them passed? Yes to both.

The bottom line, again, for me is that based on my experience and personal observations, Caldwell's 2A support is genuine and not a ploy to garner votes and then disregard after he gets elected. Do I believe that his inability to get the changes he wanted for the range indicate he's trying to pull a fast one on "us?" No.

I understand you have reservations with Ben based on your past experiences and acknowledge that your points on this forum are more directed towards 2A.  Again my support of Ben isn't due to 2A issues and feel that although it's not great that he would be Mayor with regards to 2A issues, at the same time he was the Gov and it wasn't the end of the world (wasn't great, but wasn't the end).

I respect your opinions and your right to voice them. I disagree with your conclusions that his failure to get the range improvements somehow discredit his actions to date in support of 2A issues, or that it somehow indicates he's a poor leader or incapable of getting things done. I know your position, you know mine...it may be time to agree to disagree.

I appreciate the spirited conversation and the attempt to educate others on what you think are important attributes of our elected officials. I think such debate is good and provides the electorate with more information, which is necessary in order to make a more informed decision. Thank you.

Again I respect and agree to disagree.  Election time is getting near folks!!!

Here's a novel idea.

Vote for whoever the hell you want and quit arguing about it.

...........hey man did anyone ever tell you your breath stinks....................

Damn, running out of 

 

Popcorn now causes cancer...............as does air, but only it taken in small quantities over an extended period of time.