New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports (Read 9860 times)

bingbong

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2019, 09:11:15 AM »
After some research HPD refusing AR pistols registration is not because of the definition of semiautomatic, detachable or bolt action. HRS 134-8(c) states the manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. If HPD allows bullet or mag buttons then they cannot allow 30 round AR mags. This situation is avoided with a welded 10 round mag.

Both Dark Storm Industries and JC Arms make an AR lower with a pinned mag and they do not mill a hole for the mag release. Although not welded this should satisfy HPD requirements.

It's better to have government require all AR pistols to have a fixed mag rather than banning all AR mags with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2019, 10:22:00 AM »
After some research HPD refusing AR pistols registration is not because of the definition of semiautomatic, detachable or bolt action. HRS 134-8(c) states the manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. If HPD allows bullet or mag buttons then they cannot allow 30 round AR mags. This situation is avoided with a welded 10 round mag.

Both Dark Storm Industries and JC Arms make an AR lower with a pinned mag and they do not mill a hole for the mag release. Although not welded this should satisfy HPD requirements.

It's better to have government require all AR pistols to have a fixed mag rather than banning all AR mags with a capacity of greater than 10 rounds.

That logic is faulty. 

You can register an AR pistol with the gas system omitted/disabled.  Eliminating the semi-auto action mitigates the "assault pistol" classification by definition.  In that case, the mag is still allowed to be detachable.  The mag can theoretically be replaced with a non-pistol-compliant mag.

The laws are poorly written and ambiguous, but the mag limit in the case of AR-15s and AK-47s is not enforced by the Cops.  Trying to analyze it any further results in the same conclusion no matter what:  mags for AR rifles > 10 rd capacity are already illegal to buy or own.

I am not a lawyer, but a search of the forum will turn up some who are or have consulted them.


Maybe start here.  Some posts reference what 2A lawyers, including those from the NRA, concluded.

Hint:  It's not the answer you would hope for nor expect.

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=3956.0
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

6716J

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2019, 11:44:29 AM »
Yes I have tried to get answers from HPD and the AG. Both of which ended with multiple email conversations with the refusal to answer the question of "what is a detachable magazine" and "how do you determine it". My questions were blunt and to the point, as I'm sure others who have asked the same question were. I also tried to get my State senators office to get an answer with again, no result/same result. They wouldn't answer her either.

Until we either sue the State to provide a definition of "detachable magazine" such as other states have done, HPD will make up their own rules as they go. It's no better than asking what the speed limit is. A blank sign with just SPEED LIMIT on it and no number and they'll ticket us when they think we're speeding and we have no way of knowing what that limit is?
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

bingbong

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2019, 11:19:52 PM »
That logic is faulty. 

You can register an AR pistol with the gas system omitted/disabled.  Eliminating the semi-auto action mitigates the "assault pistol" classification by definition.  In that case, the mag is still allowed to be detachable.  The mag can theoretically be replaced with a non-pistol-compliant mag.

The laws are poorly written and ambiguous, but the mag limit in the case of AR-15s and AK-47s is not enforced by the Cops.  Trying to analyze it any further results in the same conclusion no matter what:  mags for AR rifles > 10 rd capacity are already illegal to buy or own.

I am not a lawyer, but a search of the forum will turn up some who are or have consulted them.


Maybe start here.  Some posts reference what 2A lawyers, including those from the NRA, concluded.

Hint:  It's not the answer you would hope for nor expect.

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=3956.0

So are you saying an assault pistol is a semi automatic with a detachable magazine and they are illegal? If this is true why are you allowed to buy a Glock 17?  This is also a semi auto pistol with a detachable mag.

What law makes rifle mags with a capacity greater than ten rounds illegal?

Do you seriously believe HPD  out of the goodness of their heart is cutting all of us a break by not arresting us for 30 round AR mags?
Maybe they are going to get us on the red flag law for possession of illegal mag?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 11:52:00 PM by bingbong »

bingbong

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2019, 11:30:08 PM »
Yes I have tried to get answers from HPD and the AG. Both of which ended with multiple email conversations with the refusal to answer the question of "what is a detachable magazine" and "how do you determine it". My questions were blunt and to the point, as I'm sure others who have asked the same question were. I also tried to get my State senators office to get an answer with again, no result/same result. They wouldn't answer her either.

Until we either sue the State to provide a definition of "detachable magazine" such as other states have done, HPD will make up their own rules as they go. It's no better than asking what the speed limit is. A blank sign with just SPEED LIMIT on it and no number and they'll ticket us when they think we're speeding and we have no way of knowing what that limit is?

Are you willing to complain to the governor? AG refusing to answer to the legislator is something the governor should be made aware.

Who was the AG when this happened? Was it DC or the guy before him?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2019, 03:39:21 PM »
So are you saying an assault pistol is a semi automatic with a detachable magazine and they are illegal? If this is true why are you allowed to buy a Glock 17?  This is also a semi auto pistol with a detachable mag.

What law makes rifle mags with a capacity greater than ten rounds illegal?

Do you seriously believe HPD  out of the goodness of their heart is cutting all of us a break by not arresting us for 30 round AR mags?
Maybe they are going to get us on the red flag law for possession of illegal mag?

I'm not "saying" anything that isn't part of HRS134.  Read the statute:



As for 30 rd mags being "unenforced," I'm not assigning any motivations to anyone.

All I said was, if you keep asking for clarification, you're more likely to bring the lack of enforcement to someone's attention who decides to "fix" it.  That would be bad for all of us, not just the one who shines the light on the inconsistency in enforcement.

You seem to want to start a fight over this issue for some reason. 

Same statute (different section) makes rifle mags with a capacity of > 10 rds illegal -- **IF** the magazine can also be used in a PISTOL.  Interchangeability between a rifle and a pistol is what's key.  Example:  Why is a 9mm carbine rifle that accepts G17 mags not able to use a > 10 rd mag?  Because the mag also fits a G17.  it's not a difficult concept.
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

bingbong

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2019, 04:45:23 PM »
I'm not "saying" anything that isn't part of HRS134.  Read the statute:



As for 30 rd mags being "unenforced," I'm not assigning any motivations to anyone.

All I said was, if you keep asking for clarification, you're more likely to bring the lack of enforcement to someone's attention who decides to "fix" it.  That would be bad for all of us, not just the one who shines the light on the inconsistency in enforcement.

You seem to want to start a fight over this issue for some reason. 

Same statute (different section) makes rifle mags with a capacity of > 10 rds illegal -- **IF** the magazine can also be used in a PISTOL.  Interchangeability between a rifle and a pistol is what's key.  Example:  Why is a 9mm carbine rifle that accepts G17 mags not able to use a > 10 rd mag?  Because the mag also fits a G17.  it's not a difficult concept.

This is why HPD requires a fixed 10 round mag in an ar pistol. They don't want ar pistols that can take 30 round mags. With a fixed mag there is no interchangeability.
This is why companies are making ar lowers with a fixed mag.

I notice in your posts you always mention the word fight or argue anytime someone disagrees with you.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2019, 05:52:04 PM »
This is why HPD requires a fixed 10 round mag in an ar pistol. They don't want ar pistols that can take 30 round mags. With a fixed mag there is no interchangeability.
This is why companies are making ar lowers with a fixed mag.

I notice in your posts you always mention the word fight or argue anytime someone disagrees with you.

Nope.  Only when someone is beating a dead horse.   

This issue has been beaten to death for years.  You seem to want to argue the details, but to what end?  What are you hoping to accomplish?  You asked questions.  Some of us pointed you to the answers. Yet, you persist in telling us what HPD is thinking when the basis of that opinion is a flawed analysis.

We know you can register an AR pistol with a removable mag if you disable the gas system.  Period.
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2019, 06:24:47 PM »
This is why HPD requires a fixed 10 round mag in an ar pistol. They don't want ar pistols that can take 30 round mags. With a fixed mag there is no interchangeability.
This is why companies are making ar lowers with a fixed mag.

I notice in your posts you always mention the word fight or argue anytime someone disagrees with you.

p.s.  Once you have an AR pistol, it really doesn't matter if the mag is fixed or the gas system is neutered.  If it's a pistol, including a revolver, it can only have a 10 rd or less ammo capacity. 

The law already makes inserting a 30 rd mag in a pistol a felony.  Therefore, HPD has no reason to require you to permanently fix your mag in the magwell to ensure you can never use a > 10 rd mag.

If your argument is that HPD is trying to prevent you from breaking the law and going to prison, thereby losing all your gun rights, then I don't think you know this state's legal system very well.  All of these laws exist so that when you are found guilty of a felony, they can legally take your guns away forever -- no matter where you live afterward.

You asked if the Cops were not enforcing the mag laws "out of the goodness of their heart."  I'd ask the same to you -- is HPD trying to save you from a felony charge "out of the goodness of their heart?"
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

Heavies

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2019, 06:50:20 PM »
We are all preaching to the choir here.  no sense in anyone getting bent out of shape.

Detachable mags, outside of the grip, defines (in Hawaii law) an "assault pistol"

>10 round magazines inserted into a pistol is a felony

>10 round pistol mags, not inserted into a pistol is a misdemeanor

>10 round rifle mags is nothing,  BUT since many rifle mags can also be used in pistols then they wishywashed into a grey area.

dogman

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2019, 07:30:55 PM »
Do you seriously believe HPD  out of the goodness of their heart is cutting all of us a break by not arresting us for 30 round AR mags?
I do.

Heavies

Heavies

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2019, 07:49:48 PM »
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol03_Ch0121-0200D/HRS0134/

§134-1

"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following characteristics:

     (1)  An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

     (3)  A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or

     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;

but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section, or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code section 921(a)(13) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations section 478.11.

Heavies

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2019, 08:06:34 PM »
p.s.  Once you have an AR pistol, it really doesn't matter if the mag is fixed or the gas system is neutered.  If it's a pistol, including a revolver, it can only have a 10 rd or less ammo capacity. 

The law already makes inserting a 30 rd mag in a pistol a felony.  Therefore, HPD has no reason to require you to permanently fix your mag in the magwell to ensure you can never use a > 10 rd mag.

If your argument is that HPD is trying to prevent you from breaking the law and going to prison, thereby losing all your gun rights, then I don't think you know this state's legal system very well.  All of these laws exist so that when you are found guilty of a felony, they can legally take your guns away forever -- no matter where you live afterward.

You asked if the Cops were not enforcing the mag laws "out of the goodness of their heart."  I'd ask the same to you -- is HPD trying to save you from a felony charge "out of the goodness of their heart?"

I believe if the magazine is not detachable, the capacity limit is null.

Quote
§134-8  Ownership, etc., of automatic firearms, silencers, etc., prohibited; penalties.  (a)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of any of the following is prohibited:  assault pistols, except as provided by section 134-4(e); automatic firearms; rifles with barrel lengths less than sixteen inches; shotguns with barrel lengths less than eighteen inches; cannons; mufflers, silencers, or devices for deadening or muffling the sound of discharged firearms; hand grenades, dynamite, blasting caps, bombs, or bombshells, or other explosives; or any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof coated with teflon or any other similar coating designed primarily to enhance its capability to penetrate metal or pierce protective armor; and any type of ammunition or any projectile component thereof designed or intended to explode or segment upon impact with its target.

     (b)  Any person who installs, removes, or alters a firearm part with the intent to convert the firearm to an automatic firearm shall be deemed to have manufactured an automatic firearm in violation of subsection (a).

     (c)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited.  This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.

     (d)  Any person violating subsection (a) or (b) shall be guilty of a class C felony and shall be imprisoned for a term of five years without probation.  Any person violating subsection (c) shall be guilty of a misdemeanor except when a detachable magazine prohibited under this section is possessed while inserted into a pistol in which case the person shall be guilty of a class C felony. [L 1988, c 275, pt of §2; am L 1989, c 261, §6 and c 263, §4; am L 1992, c 286, §§3, 4]

 

Revolver capacity limits are not mentioned


But what do I know, I am not a lawyer

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2019, 08:31:04 PM »
I believe if the magazine is not detachable, the capacity limit is null.

Revolver capacity limits are not mentioned


But what do I know, I am not a lawyer

You're correct.  It's been so long that I've looked at that rule, I misremembered the detachable part.

 :thumbsup:

However, if that's correct, then the Cops would have to allow a 30-rd mag fixed into the mag well of an AR pistol as legal, since it's not detachable in spite of it being a pistol.

One more argument against the reasoning that HPD is making rules to ensure you only use 10 rd mags in an AR pistol.
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

dogman

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2019, 09:15:45 PM »
Registered with HPD by a 2aHawaii member, 30 round magazine is fully welded in magwell, no comments, move along.

macsak

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2019, 09:26:46 PM »
Registered with HPD by a 2aHawaii member, 30 round magazine is fully welded in magwell, no comments, move along.

more amps...

drck1000

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2019, 09:31:33 PM »
more amps...
He said NO comments and move on

#nofocus






















 ;D

macsak

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2019, 09:35:23 PM »
heads

He said NO comments and move on

#nofocus






















 ;D

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2019, 10:13:38 PM »
Registered with HPD by a 2aHawaii member, 30 round magazine is fully welded in magwell, no comments, move along.

Good info.

Corroborates what I said.

Moving along now ......   :stopjack:
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.