Our tax dollars at work... because, you know, a shotgun HAS to be whatever arbitrary and capricious length they say it has to be (Because? Oh, right, "public safety"), and if you don't obey... they'll kill your family...

(P.S. These murders/government authorized executions took place under the direct orders of Bill Gore, currently sheriff of San Diego county, the government agent who denied Ed Peruta his CCW license due to lack of "good cause" and thus the 8 year long lawsuit we just saw finally lost with denial of cert at SCOTUS...).

I am not really going to second guess what the FBI did in Ruby Ridge because I don't know all the details and circumstances but I would say that I think the FBI lacks a certain level of people skills.

I am not really going to second guess what the FBI did in Ruby Ridge because I don't know all the details and circumstances but I would say that I think the FBI lacks a certain level of people skills.

I am not really going to second guess what the Manson Family did to Sharon Tate and her in utero child because I don't know all the details and circumstances but I would say that I think the Manson Family lacked a certain level of people skills.

Don't forget executing people who won't play ball.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/04/death_of_ibragim_todashev_why_did_the_fbi_kill_tamerlan_tsarnaev_s_friend.html

Lon Horiuchi

Lon Horiuchi

That's the sniper who shot and killed the unarmed Vicki Weaver while she stood at the front door of her home holding her 10 month old baby. Having performed so superlatively at Ruby Rdige, he then went on to do more of his "work" at the Branch Dividian compound in Waco, Texas. He is now the spokesperson for H-S Precision, so be sure to go to their website to buy their products so you can give some of your money to Horiuchi in memory of all those he "served" while acting as an agent of the government by, for, and of the people. Oh, yeah, and before I forget, fuck Janet Reno and Bill Clinton too.

I don't know anything about this but from Wikipedia, it reads that Vicki Weaver was behind a door that Kevin Harris was trying to enter when Horuichi shot at him.   Horuichi's shot hit Harris, went through the door and killer Vicki Weaver.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

Unsure if this account is accurate or if there's a different version to the story.

I don't know anything about this but from Wikipedia, it reads that Vicki Weaver was behind a door that Kevin Harris was trying to enter when Horuichi shot at him.   Horuichi's shot hit Harris, went through the door and killer Vicki Weaver.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

Unsure if this account is accurate or if there's a different version to the story.

These people (government agents who shoot and kill people) aren't known for telling the unvarnished truth when under investigation. Besides, "know what is behind your target". I know, I know, the "rules" don't apply to "them" ("the only ones").

Even Wikipedia's (Ruby Ridge) account reads thus: "The Boundary County, Idaho, prosecutor indicted FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi for manslaughter in 1997 before the statute of limitations for this charge could expire; the Idaho v Horiuchi case was moved to federal court which has jurisdiction over federal agents, where it underwent a sovereign immunity dismissal, an en banc reversal on appeal of the dismissal, and ultimately, the dropping of charges after a change in the local prosecutor."

There's that "qualified/sovereign immunity" rearing it's ugly head again (See my post of two days ago in the Legal and Activism thread re the arrest of someone for exercising her right to remain silent...https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=28828.msg255348#msg255348).

Weaver was awarded $3.1 MILLION for something that must be near "wrongdoing", if not outright criminal acts.

[Edited to add] Further quotes (sources at original):

Constitutionality of the second shot

The RRTF report to the DOJ's Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) of June 1994 stated unequivocally in its conclusion (in its executive summary) that the rules that allowed the second shot to have taken place did not satisfy constitutional standards for legal use of deadly force.[105] The 1996 report of the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information, Arlen Specter [R-PA], Chair), concurred, with Senator Dianne Feinstein [D-CA] dissenting.[106] The RRTF report also found the lack of a request to surrender "inexcusable",[107] since Harris and the two Weavers were not an imminent threat (reported as running for cover without returning fire).[108]

The task force also specifically blamed Horiuchi for firing through the door, not knowing whether someone was on the other side of it.[107] While controversy exists as to who is responsible for approving the ROE that were being followed by the FBI sniper, the task force also condemned the rules of engagement that allowed shots to be fired without request for surrender.[107][99]

I don't know anything about this but from Wikipedia, it reads that Vicki Weaver was behind a door that Kevin Harris was trying to enter when Horuichi shot at him.   Horuichi's shot hit Harris, went through the door and killer Vicki Weaver.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

Unsure if this account is accurate or if there's a different version to the story.

I gather Wiki  is only a slight step up from Snopes with regard to accuracy on political topics.  Do not think I would use them as an authority.

Yes, I agree with Wikipedia as an unreliable source.  But there seems to be more to it than just Horuichi shooting Vicki in cold blood. Is there?

Yes, I agree with Wikipedia as an unreliable source.  But there seems to be more to it than just Horuichi shooting Vicki in cold blood. Is there?

Undercover befriended the guy and somehow worked out a deal to cut down his shotgun barrel.  It was cut 1/8 below legal limit or something of that sort.
Awarrant was issued for his arrest.  A team went to the property to scout,  made contact with the 2 sons and their dog, killed the dog  and I believe 1 agent died. 
They pulled out and asked for help from the FBI or another agency.
11 day siege began.  No offer to surrender was offered.
Guys wife ends up being killed by a sniper while holding their kid. 
Eventually it ends and no chargers were presented. 
Guy gets compensated for his wife's death and everything else.
Government continues on too Waco Texas.
The state eventually brings charges against the officers involved. Government steps in and says they have qualified immunity and the state cannot prosecute federal officers doing their duties.
Horuichi now supposedly works for troy firearms

There's a good documentary on it on Netflix.
They even interview Bo Gritz, who had to be called in to talk Randy Weaver out of the cabin.

Whole thing was an enormous and tragic clusterfuck on the part of the Government.
They set up Weaver to try to get him to roll over on some White Supremacists setting up shop in the secluded area.

There's a good documentary on it on Netflix.
They even interview Bo Gritz, who had to be called in to talk Randy Weaver out of the cabin.

Whole thing was an enormous and tragic clusterfuck on the part of the Government.
They set up Weaver to try to get him to roll over on some White Supremacists setting up shop in the secluded area.

Our government spending literally millions of taxpayer dollars using hundreds of government agents and military to go after a guy for shortening the barrels on a couple of shotguns (you know, like the ones with the same specs that are legal almost everywhere except Hawaii), then after killing half his family had to pay out another $3.1 million because they may have overstepped the bounds of legality.

It still outrages me 25 years later.   

 Sounds pretty screwed up. Thanks for the cliff notes summary. I'll go look up the film on Netflix.