If anyone here supports rail for Honolulu, how did you feel about the Super Ferry?  For those that know people who are pro-rail, were they pro-Super Ferry also?  I was thinking about what happened at that town hall meeting on rail that happened a couple nights ago and didn't remember there being such vocal support for the other alternative form of transportation that we could have had - the Super Ferry.  In fact, the opposite seemed to be true and I could've sworn that the opposition to the Super Ferry had the same "dis not da mainland" undertones that the rail supporters had at that town hall meeting. 

We need the rail but it is not done right and too late.  I dont see it being built with all kinds of setbacks and whatnot.

We needed the SuperFerry.  It was just the handful that made so much noise that didnt like it.

Everyone I know has an opinion on rail, some for, some against.   However I have NEVER personally met anyone who was against the Superferry. 

Although many of the public is confused on how the rail will benefit Oahu, I think the majority of Hawaii residents clearly understood the benefits of having the interisland ferry service.

^^
Agreed.  Pro-Super ferry does not equal pro-rail.

The only way they are equal is that both ended / will end in a fiasco.

Anti-rail.......was Pro-ferry

I heard the anti ferry crowd consisted of two or three companies. Matson, Young Brothers and Pascha. They have the money it took to kill the ferry. Guess they didn't like the competition? I heard part of the deal that was supposed to make the ferry financially viable was that if it did not fill up with cars it could fill the voids with freight. I do not know if any of this is true. I read it somewhere but cannot remember where.

My wife and I were looking forward to the ferry when it was supposed to start service from the Big Island to Maui. When it was killed we were actually quite sad.

Not completely anti rail. I am anti any rail that we cannot afford. Therefore I am anti the rail that is currently proposed and being built because we cannot afford it. We do not have the money to build it even with the federal grant and we do not have the money to even operate it once it is built. If we can bring in a rail project that we can say that we can clearly afford I would be for that. BTW, the half percent increase in sales tax we are currently paying is not enough to pay for the construction of the rail even if we have no cost over runs. Nor is it enough to even operate the rail once it is built. The people of Oahu were lied to and sold a bill of goods. All of this has come out since the voters voted for rail.

The one and only time my family and I got to ride the Super Ferry to Maui, I distinctly remembered that they loaded the semis and delivery trucks first before letting the rest of the customers cars onboard.  I distinctly remember Love's bakery being one of the businesses I saw.  I didn't see if there was any freight loaded.  So there weren't any "Go Ferry Go!" groups back then because no one with money came forward to campaign for it despite most people being for it.  The state let the enviro-hippies ruin a decent alternative.  By the way, how do people in Washington state and Vancouver B.C. get around the various islands and across the Sound?  Lots and lots of FERRIES.

Rail obviously has backers other than the City.  Why do the unions back rail instead of elevated roadway construction?  Why are they even choosing one over the other when both would mean work for them?  I just heard the pro-rail radio ad on KSSK this morning.  The "ONLY" alternative transportation???  It's frustrating that the only reason they can be so blatant about things here (same reason why the Republican = Big Evil Racist Mainland Corporations still has traction) is because a lot of people can't or won't do their own research. 

I was for the super ferry, but did not get the opportunity to ride on it.  It was squashed too soon.

The rail sounds like a good idea, but it is not sustainable.  So, we (the tax payers), will be on the hook for its maintenance and upkeep.

Hawaii needs effective, affordable mass transit.  However, any push in that direction will always be met with resistance.  The SuperFerry died not because it was a bad idea, or because it was an environmental threat, but because it threatened the profit margins of other deep-pocket companies.  This rail project is ill-conceived, and not likely to accomplish any measure of success.

I propose that we raze the island and start over.  Level the whole thing, blast the mountains, fill the gulches, create a nice, even plain.  Build a comprehensive subway system before as start rebuilding and other structures.  Then reinstate a cable-car or trolley network, HOHO style.  What few roads we do build will have parallel but physically isolated bicycle and pedestrian paths (i.e. 3 roads: one for cars, one for bicycles, and one for pedestrians).  Lastly, we make the vehicle registration fee directly related to both the weight and volume of a vehicle, and multiply the base level by at LEAST a factor of 10.  Oh, and add a 300% at-the-pump tax on gasoline. 

I'm only being partly facetious.  It really hasn't been that long since owning a car was a luxury item.  Safe, affordable, effective public transit was the norm in most American cities.  Those companies were bought up and dismantled by a consortium of gas, automotive, and tire companies in order to force Americans into a car-based lifestyle.  We can reverse that, but it's going to hurt.

OK guys I'm going to give you my rant about this subject.  To give you a bit of background on myself; BSc in Civil Engineering, construction for 18-ish years, worked with Matson/YB/Pasha, rode the SF, have looked at both the Rail plan and the alternative, was a student of Panos way back in the day...............so I feel that I have much more insight into this than the great majority of the public.

Anti-rail.......was Pro-ferry

For the record, I agree with you...................Anti-Rail............Pro-Super Ferry

I heard the anti ferry crowd consisted of two or three companies. Matson, Young Brothers and Pascha. They have the money it took to kill the ferry. Guess they didn't like the competition? I heard part of the deal that was supposed to make the ferry financially viable was that if it did not fill up with cars it could fill the voids with freight. I do not know if any of this is true. I read it somewhere but cannot remember where................

For background...............YB runs freight interisland, Pasha and Matson do not.  Pasha however has/had applied to be allowed to ship interisland thus directly competing with YB........however Pasha was to cherry pick certain routes which would prove more profitable and not have to take freight to all the islands as YB has to.  YB protested as they are forced to carry freight.

...........anyhow...............SF would be/was a direct challenge to the interisland shipment of cargo.  As far as I know SF did not have a restriction as to only being allowed to carry freight if the hold was not filled with automobiles.  The second faction is the very vocal non-native voice about this issue.  While I do know that there were native peeps who wanted SF, there were locals who did not.  My opinion is that the great silent majority outnumbered the vocal persons who did not want the SF.

Hawaii needs effective, affordable mass transit.  However, any push in that direction will always be met with resistance.  The SuperFerry died not because it was a bad idea, or because it was an environmental threat, but because it threatened the profit margins of other deep-pocket companies.  This rail project is ill-conceived, and not likely to accomplish any measure of success.

I propose that we raze the island and start over.  Level the whole thing, blast the mountains, fill the gulches, create a nice, even plain.  Build a comprehensive subway system before as start rebuilding and other structures.  Then reinstate a cable-car or trolley network, HOHO style.  What few roads we do build will have parallel but physically isolated bicycle and pedestrian paths (i.e. 3 roads: one for cars, one for bicycles, and one for pedestrians).  Lastly, we make the vehicle registration fee directly related to both the weight and volume of a vehicle, and multiply the base level by at LEAST a factor of 10.  Oh, and add a 300% at-the-pump tax on gasoline. 

I'm only being partly facetious.  It really hasn't been that long since owning a car was a luxury item.  Safe, affordable, effective public transit was the norm in most American cities.  Those companies were bought up and dismantled by a consortium of gas, automotive, and tire companies in order to force Americans into a car-based lifestyle.  We can reverse that, but it's going to hurt.

I agree with you to a point Tom.  I do agree about the SF getting killed by the deep pockets, but also there is the non native people who move here and do not want any change.

With regards to mass transit, we already have mass transit and it's called The Bus.  What Rail is would be considered rapid transit which is mass transit with exclusive use.  If you restrict the use of the HOV lanes in the morning to The Bus only, guess what..........you now have a rapid transit system.



Will start a second post about this because it's going to be a long one............

Rail should start from the center of a city and spread out. The current design is a clear sell out to the developers of Ho'opili and the other jokers who want to cap our last viable farm land in concrete and suck the rest of the water out of the Pearl Harbor aquifer.

So here’s my take on Rail………coming from a guy with a Civil Engineering degree, long years in the construction industry, and as a taxpayer.
I started out very much Pro-Rail and am now completely Anti-Rail.

I feel that Rail is a short sighted attempted solution and it is quite frightening that no one in the City & County of Honolulu wants to look at reasonable alternatives.   The opponents to Rail have put out one fairly detailed response to what they feel would be an alternative.  This alternative would still require significant construction meaning plenty of jobs.  It would also reduce the overall cost of the project as well as keep the vast majority of the jobs here in state.  Keep in mind that Rail had started out as a guaranteed $3B project and is now expected to be well over $5B even by those proponents who guaranteed the public that it wouldn’t.  Along this process it’s been well documented that the C&C has failed to keep the public informed on matters, they’ve lied to the people in Moanalua (who voted pro-Rail) and later changed the route to exclude them, sat on knowledge of a necessary realignment near the Airport to clear the runway approach for nearly a year and at a cost of $125M(?).  Rail will send a huge amount of money to Europe for the trains, technology to run & maintain them.

The latest news now says we will hire a chief to run this well before it’s built at a cost of $245,000/year with $36,000 year for a housing budget.  That's right we're paying someone $36,000 for housing when this guy is already going to make $245,00/year.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/17060755/grabauskas-confirmed-as-hart-executive-director

What really pisses me off is these guys are building from Kapolei into town.  In other words you won't get the benefit of the Rail until it's fully complete.  So here's what I envision happening; you wake up earlier than usual to catch a Bus or drive to the Rail station.  You park in a massive parking lot and walk to the station platform which in some areas like Ala Moana will be 90+ feet in the air.  You wait for your Rail car where you may or may not have a seat since the designers decided to reduce the seating in the cars in order to bump the standing persons which in turn bumps the passengers per car which in turn bumps the number of people who are using the system.  You then take that car and stop at each and every station to let people on or off of the car.  Now if you had caught an Express Bus or a regular Bus, no stopping along the way into town.  Since the Rail line isn't completed you get off at say Pearl City and catch another Bus into town.  WTF??!?!?!!!

So guys, lets build from town to Kapolei you say..............well guess what that would upset a lot of people and the Rail project would lose momentum.  Enough momentum I think the project would die.  By the C&C building the way it is now, it forces us the taxpayer to commit to this and not back out.  Never mind you don't get the benefit of the system until a decade from now.

This is the short of the Rail fiasco.



Now the proposed alternative would still have raised roadways and would still be built in the same manner.  What is missing is the Rail cars (which many experts say lack seating), support stations including electric generation buildings, no new major parking lots, no new security agency for the stations.  The alternative would use a reversible toll roadway with modified Bus routes, split level intersections, Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) lanes (remember the mass vs. rapid transit described above?), and construction completion time far less than that of the Rail.  The alternative would also address serving UH Manoa immediately as opposed to a spur on the Rail line which may never come.



Finally the people seem to be forgetting that the EPA has mandated changes to the existing sewer system for Oahu.  The price tag for this is $3B, but some are mentioning that magic $5B number again.  Keep in mind that the bill for that is footed by those paying C&C of Honolulu tax.  There is no bailout by the entire population of Oahu (both permanent and/or transient……..the tourists).  If these mandated upgrades do not happen the EPA will fine us and the taxpayers will have to do the upgrades and pay the fine.

Seems to me there is no leadership in the C&C.  We have a Prosecutor who is trying to make decisions in matters that he has no concept of.

Rail should start from the center of a city and spread out. The current design is a clear sell out to the developers of Ho'opili and the other jokers who want to cap our last viable farm land in concrete and suck the rest of the water out of the Pearl Harbor aquifer.

Hvy check out my post below.  I voice my opinion on why I feel the construction is from Kapolei into town.

Gzire you are absolutely right about the reason behind having the rail project start in Kapolei and not in town. So many more people in the more heavily populated urban Honolulu will be immediately affected by the construction and land condemnation. The public outrage would be significant. The prorail politicians would not want that.

As the public learns more about this project, the worse it looks. It was reported in the paper that the board has 2 members that are employed by First Hawaiian bank, the main lender for this project. First Hawaiian is owned by an Italian company that also has a stake in Ansaldo, the rail contractor. It is too bad that there is no one on the board to represent the tax payers.

\With regards to mass transit, we already have mass transit and it's called The Bus.

Note that my requirement included the word "effective."  If you;ve ever tried to do any serious amount of commuting or errand-running via TheBus, you'll know that it does not qualify.  It's a rudimentary first step, nothing more.

Well all yous rail supporters heard about the 64 seat trains?   Damn I would like to be able to sit down on my $5billion train ride! 

On a side note: I really am enjoying my doubled car registration and $4+++ gas. :p

I am pro-improvement. I hate the idiots that are against something just because they don't like change, if they're against change and don't live like the amish then it's just ignorant bullshit. That being said, I think we need some type of mass transit and alternative transportation options. Rail and superferry are good ideas but they also need to be done correctly in order for it achieve the desired effect.

Not to bring up some bad feelings here. With all due respect I think we need something other than mass transit. We actually do have The Bus and it is not bad considering. Plus we have the AM Zipper Lane and we are going to start building the PM Zipper Lane around May-June (Last I heard). You guys can throw stuff at me when you drive by.    Personally, I think the best bang for our buck is to widen the freeways where needed. The work is slow but the costs are low compared to a new mass transit system. IF WELL DESIGNED, it will work quite well and last us for many years with little maintenance costs. The thing is that we need to not only build out for the issue we have now, but for the future. It is not that hard to predict how much more we will need in say 10 years or 20 years. And then build out like what we need for a 30 year plan. The amount of money we have in the rail coffers right now could more than pay for an H1/H2 widening and re-design by local companies. The best part of all this (IMHO) is that we won't need to bring in mainland companies and labor with special experience (like we are doing with the rail) to build roads here. We have the engineers here. We have the heavy construction companies here. And we have the labor here. Not only that, we KNOW the taxpayers are going to use it. The beauty is IMHO that by the time you finish with the H1/H2 merge, you will have enough $ from the half percent tax to design and build out the next section. And while all that is going on, design work for the downtown section of the H1 can be on going. I propose we double deck the H1 through the downtown area. Once open, it will immediately double (or more) the capacity of the H1 through that area. And no homes will have to be torn down.

This is a financially sustainable resolution. While not perfect if we plan ahead well in advance for the traffic, we will have the time and $ coming in from the half percent sales tax (after all the widening projects are complete) to figure out if bus only lanes/roads will work for us. Or if light rail will work better. Or if the heavy rail we have now designed will finally be viable. We need to service ALL of the island and not parts.

This is a 30-40 year plan that will be well served by the taxpayers. Again, this is JMHO. 

Note that my requirement included the word "effective."  If you;ve ever tried to do any serious amount of commuting or errand-running via TheBus, you'll know that it does not qualify.  It's a rudimentary first step, nothing more.

Yes with the Bus, I rode it for years as a kid from Kailua to town. 

I must respectfully disagree that the Bus is not an effective means of transporting people.  Thousands upon thousands are served daily by the Busand have been for decades.  The Bus is effective and is much more effective than the Rail considering it can go many more places than Rail can right now and for less money.  Even when Rail is complete the Bus will still be more effective and certainly much more cost effective.  Consider that even with the ridership the Bus has now it is still subsidized.  This for something that costs far less than the Rail and serves far more people with much less technology.  When things break on the Bus it can be fixed by people coming out of HCC now with parts purchased locally for Buses produced nationally.  With the Rail the cars will require specialized training that is not yet in place, with who knows what tools purchased by parts from Europe from a country that is currently having to be bailed out.

I encourage you to read the proposed alternative.  It is far more comprehensive than the bulk of the people of Oahu realize.  Heck my bosses have no clue and they are in the construction business and bid on Rail.

Not to bring up some bad feelings here. With all due respect I think we need something other than mass transit. We actually do have The Bus and it is not bad considering. Plus we have the AM Zipper Lane and we are going to start building the PM Zipper Lane around May-June (Last I heard). You guys can throw stuff at me when you drive by.    Personally, I think the best bang for our buck is to widen the freeways where needed. The work is slow but the costs are low compared to a new mass transit system. IF WELL DESIGNED, it will work quite well and last us for many years with little maintenance costs. The thing is that we need to not only build out for the issue we have now, but for the future. It is not that hard to predict how much more we will need in say 10 years or 20 years. And then build out like what we need for a 30 year plan. The amount of money we have in the rail coffers right now could more than pay for an H1/H2 widening and re-design by local companies. The best part of all this (IMHO) is that we won't need to bring in mainland companies and labor with special experience (like we are doing with the rail) to build roads here. We have the engineers here. We have the heavy construction companies here. And we have the labor here. Not only that, we KNOW the taxpayers are going to use it. The beauty is IMHO that by the time you finish with the H1/H2 merge, you will have enough $ from the half percent tax to design and build out the next section. And while all that is going on, design work for the downtown section of the H1 can be on going. I propose we double deck the H1 through the downtown area. Once open, it will immediately double (or more) the capacity of the H1 through that area. And no homes will have to be torn down.

This is a financially sustainable resolution. While not perfect if we plan ahead well in advance for the traffic, we will have the time and $ coming in from the half percent sales tax (after all the widening projects are complete) to figure out if bus only lanes/roads will work for us. Or if light rail will work better. Or if the heavy rail we have now designed will finally be viable. We need to service ALL of the island and not parts.

This is a 30-40 year plan that will be well served by the taxpayers. Again, this is JMHO. 

While it would/could be effective in certain areas I disagree about the highway/freeway widening.

One of the huge issues with Oahu is there is insufficient holding capacity when exiting/entering the freeways this in turn leads to backups onto/off of the highways/freeways.  A good example of this is the Vineyard off/on ramp and the intersection that feeds this.  I'm sure everyone here has had to sit in that gridlock and if you drive in from the east side in the morning you may have had to deal with the increase in efficiency by blocking the on ramp in the AM and can see how those people trying the access the prior off ramp can see how a small modification such as this can hugely affect the traffic flow.

Again..........the alternate plan addresses such issues, but apparently no one from the C&C is interested in these changes.  All this can be done now, with local labor, at less cost than Rail, be completed sooner, and keep money from going to Europe.  Future maintenance would be cheaper as well as subsidizing would be less than that for Rail.