I have mixed feelings about having a training requirement.

I think more people than not aren't prepared training wise to carry safely and effectively. I attended a class that I wouldn't stay with half of the class if they were legally carrying. I have friends that acquired out of state permits with no training at all. Many that get theirs when visiting Vegas have minimal training. A family member shot 20 rounds live fire during their class.

On the other hand, I feel even if you can't afford proper training, I feel you should have the right to defend yourself and your love ones. 

I have mixed feelings about having a training requirement.

I think more people than not aren't prepared training wise to carry safely and effectively. I attended a class that I wouldn't stay with half of the class if they were legally carrying. I have friends that acquired out of state permits with no training at all. Many that get theirs when visiting Vegas have minimal training. A family member shot 20 rounds live fire during their class.

On the other hand, I feel even if you can't afford proper training, I feel you should have the right to defend yourself and your love ones.

"A well regulated militia ..." means well trained.  I think if we as a society are happy to exercise our rights, we should be just as happy to abide by our responsibilities regarding those rights.

If we ever do need to fight tyranny, I want a bunch of citizen soldiers who can hit what they shoot at and not accidentally shoot themselves or other citizen soldiers, just because they were too lazy or cheap to take training courses.

Very sad the mentality that law enforcement has here, and I'm not used to it. 

In Texas, I view cops as my friends.  We are on the same side.  I hang out with many of them, and they believe in the 2nd amendment with ZERO exceptions, even thinking the current federal level laws are bull shit.  I would not hesitate to help any of them in need if I happen to see something while I have a gun on me (all the time in Texas)

The more I am back here, the more I view cops not as my friends.  They aren't my enemy here at all either, but they are something kind of in the middle?  They are above me, and that is very sad, and a very unusual feeling.  I don't feel the warm feeling towards them that I have almost my entire life in Texas.  Perhaps I am wrong?  And they are actually good ol boys too?  I sure hope so.  Please, tell me I am wrong.

Bullshit like this keeps those feelings in me.

I'm glad to be back in Kauai with zero regrets, but as with living anywhere in the world, there are going to be things you don't like.  Here, this is a big one.

I think it is always better to have as much training as you can as well as knowing the self defense laws of your state

but I also do not think that training should be part of HR 38
some states do not require training for CC permits
i don't believe in more requirements or regulations on CC permits any more than what already exists, as this would make it take longer to decide:  what is sufficient training to get CC permits.  deciding could take months, years maybe if the democrats hold it up like you know they would
if we can pass it without training, then pass the HR38 without it

"the right of the people to own and bear arms shall not be infringed."

adding training and rules and regulations is a form of infringement.
the 2A doesn['t say anything about needing training.
if we have enough votes to pass HR38 as it is, then we should proceed with it as it is.

Hard to make a case for absolutely no infringement.  If that's the case, then criminals have a right to have guns.

I don't think training should be mandatory, but it should be promoted more by gun organizations and government.  Penaltys should be enforced if someone screws up.

I don't think Chins letter will make any difference, should pass.  I still prefer a SCOTUS ruling over this bill.

Very sad the mentality that law enforcement has here, and I'm not used to it. 

In Texas, I view cops as my friends.  We are on the same side.  I hang out with many of them, and they believe in the 2nd amendment with ZERO exceptions, even thinking the current federal level laws are bull shit.  I would not hesitate to help any of them in need if I happen to see something while I have a gun on me (all the time in Texas)

The more I am back here, the more I view cops not as my friends.  They aren't my enemy here at all either, but they are something kind of in the middle?  They are above me, and that is very sad, and a very unusual feeling.  I don't feel the warm feeling towards them that I have almost my entire life in Texas.  Perhaps I am wrong?  And they are actually good ol boys too?  I sure hope so.  Please, tell me I am wrong.

Bullshit like this keeps those feelings in me.

I'm glad to be back in Kauai with zero regrets, but as with living anywhere in the world, there are going to be things you don't like.  Here, this is a big one.

There are quite a few pro2A officers but they are not that vocal about it because of the City administration's view of the 2A. That's my experience and observations.

Hard to make a case for absolutely no infringement.  If that's the case, then criminals have a right to have guns.

I don't think training should be mandatory, but it should be promoted more by gun organizations and government.  Penaltys should be enforced if someone screws up.

I don't think Chins letter will make any difference, should pass.  I still prefer a SCOTUS ruling over this bill.

My opinion on that is that "people"  means law abiding citizens.  "We the people".   It doesn't mean terrorists, criminals, illegals, drug dealers, murderers, etc

Hard to make a case for absolutely no infringement.  If that's the case, then criminals have a right to have guns.

I don't think training should be mandatory, but it should be promoted more by gun organizations and government.  Penaltys should be enforced if someone screws up.

I don't think Chins letter will make any difference, should pass.  I still prefer a SCOTUS ruling over this bill.

I've also thought about "shall not be infringed" and criminals.  I read that if someone is truly rehabilitated, then why not give them their 2a right back?  But the problem is with over crowding and budgets, majority of released criminals are not "rehabilitated" because 70% return to prison within 2 years.

But on the other hand, criminals/convicts don't just lose 1 right (2a), but many.  You can't vote while in prison/probation, search and seizure (4a) doesn't apply (shake downs), they lose their 1a (can't protest much while in prison).  And probably many more rights they lose.  So it's more fair across the board.

I've also thought about "shall not be infringed" and criminals.  I read that if someone is truly rehabilitated, then why not give them their 2a right back?  But the problem is with over crowding and budgets, majority of released criminals are not "rehabilitated" because 70% return to prison within 2 years.

But on the other hand, criminals/convicts don't just lose 1 right (2a), but many.  You can't vote while in prison/probation, search and seizure (4a) doesn't apply (shake downs), they lose their 1a (can't protest much while in prison).  And probably many more rights they lose.  So it's more fair across the board.

All good points.
I wonder how the founding fathers dealt with this. 
Surely they had these types in society

"A well regulated militia ..." means well trained.  I think if we as a society are happy to exercise our rights, we should be just as happy to abide by our responsibilities regarding those rights.

If we ever do need to fight tyranny, I want a bunch of citizen soldiers who can hit what they shoot at and not accidentally shoot themselves or other citizen soldiers, just because they were too lazy or cheap to take training courses.

I agree with this statement.  The 2nd ensures that we always have access to firearms so that we may train in the hopes of using them to stave off tyranny.

I would add that if a law requires a class/training, that classes must be minimal and the test separate from the class, meaning that you can attempt the test without taking the class if you have the skills already.  The passing grade must be attainable by the "average reasonably trained person" and if you pass, you must be granted the permit unless you are otherwise prohibited (ie: a felon etc).  None of this BS about passing the test and then "we will let you know".  As far as how good an "average person" is, I can't put that into words but I don't want the test to be "can you shoot like Jerry Miculek in his prime?, no...fail.   This whole "may issue" crap is a load of kaka. 

And we know that if the local lawmakers are left to design the system, they will make the class cost $1000, only offer it once a year on voting day (reducing our numbers at the pole), make the passing grade so difficult that nobody will pass.

Do you guys think the government is really concerned that we are well trained enough to overthrow the government?
Why do you think States are banning "military" style weapons.
Well regulated militia?
How trained were they at Lexington and Concord?
But they had each other and they had their guns and their principles.
Now that's well regulated

Shall Not Be Infringed.

Wolverines !

P.S. For CCW, I do agree with a test and passing the test as Rusty suggests. Like Hunter's Ed. But if you can pass it without a class, you pass. Then it's shall issue. Great idea Rusty.

duplicate post. (Somehow posted my same post again) Dammit. 

Thinking about it, I think Rusty's really on to something.

https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2017.10.22_ags_opposed_to_conceal_carry_reciprocity_w_sigs.pdf

 ~15 AGs (blue states of course), and Chin was part of it wrote a letter of protest against the reciprocity bill a month ago as it was seriously starting to be considered by the House.

Counter-letter from 24 AGs writing in support of HR38.   The states signing the letter are: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming.

https://www.stl.news/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AG-Concealed-Carry-Ltr.pdf

For those saying training,  how's about the concept of training equal to law enforcement standards?
Not sure how uniform or un uniform they are across the states though but you get the concept

The State should offer that kind of training, like Hunter's Ed.
CCW Ed.
Private courses can still be offered in addition.

But I still like Rusty's idea in addition to that.
There are guys with beaucoup training.
They take the test and pass, they pass.
2 parts. Laws and live fire.

if you impose a training mandatory regulation, those states that do not require training will have to change their requirements and all their permit carriers will have to retake their permits again.  those people will not be happy campers.
and it'll take time for those states to come up with a test for their permits.  this is all extra time that we probably don't even need.
what if you are handicapped or elderly and cannot pass that required test, then they cannot have a CC permit.
so when they go to the gas station or ATM or the local pharmacy, they are now unable to protect themselves.

I'm all for training.  don't get me wrong, training can only help you and the others around you.  i get it.
but as a requirement for CC, i don't think its necessary.
those states like AZ, and others that don't require training, how often are CC permit holders screwing up and shooting bystanders or shooting themselves in the butt, or whatever.
are there even statistics on things like that? 

if we already have the votes to pass this through as it is, why make it harder on ourselves to get it passed?

when it does pass the house vote, and the senate vote, will you guys still be pushing for training to be required?

if you impose a training mandatory regulation, those states that do not require training will have to change their requirements and all their permit carriers will have to retake their permits again.  those people will not be happy campers.
and it'll take time for those states to come up with a test for their permits.  this is all extra time that we probably don't even need.
what if you are handicapped or elderly and cannot pass that required test, then they cannot have a CC permit.
so when they go to the gas station or ATM or the local pharmacy, they are now unable to protect themselves.

I'm all for training.  don't get me wrong, training can only help you and the others around you.  i get it.
but as a requirement for CC, i don't think its necessary.
those states like AZ, and others that don't require training, how often are CC permit holders screwing up and shooting bystanders or shooting themselves in the butt, or whatever.
are there even statistics on things like that? 

if we already have the votes to pass this through as it is, why make it harder on ourselves to get it passed?

when it does pass the house vote, and the senate vote, will you guys still be pushing for training to be required?

^
Agreed.  Like I said earlier, if you attempt to impose mandatory training, it'll be open to abuse by the liberals as to the requirements.  And you're going to alienate probably half of your support base for the bill.  Not everyone lives in a highly restricted state like hawaii where we're used to all sorts of mandatory requirements and rules. All the support we're getting from no permit and low requirement CC states is going to evaporate if you start throwing in new requirements and regulations.

What Stangz said ! 

So long as there is no state of residence requirement.
I was talking about getting Hawaii to be willing to issue in state permits to residents.
Otherwise we all gotta get out of state permits.

Just thought about it. Out of state permits is better.
No Rapback!

What Stangz said ! 

So long as there is no state of residence requirement.
I was talking about getting Hawaii to be willing to issue in state permits to residents.
Otherwise we all gotta get out of state permits.

Just thought about it. Out of state permits is better.
No Rapback!

Assuming this thing passes, hawaii would be smart to offer reasonable requirements for CC permits in-state.  That way, they can be assured that most hawaii residents will have decent training (like the handgun training).

If they make their requirements to arduous, costly, mandatory yearly recertification and requalification,  too many idiotic hoops to jump through, etc people are just going to get out of state ones.  BUT hawaii always does shit ass-backwards, so I anticipate having to get mine out of state, maybe when I go vegas.

"Under the legislation,  our residents would lose the protections that their legislators and law enforcement  agencies have deemed appropriate"   

   Do you currently feel "appropriately" protected ? 
I don't, and if you've seen what's happened in this state over the last 5-7 years, you know that we're turning into the mainland as far as violent crime go's.