GOP Tax Bill (Read 112493 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #160 on: December 27, 2017, 10:38:26 AM »
Earning in this context was meant as via asset inflation. See my original post where I directly mention cap gains.

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So, if you say one thing, then something different, I'm only allowed to reply to the comment you say is relevant?

(Rhetorical)    :stopjack:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

s197

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #161 on: December 27, 2017, 11:38:18 AM »
So, if you say one thing, then something different, I'm only allowed to reply to the comment you say is relevant?

(Rhetorical)    :stopjack:
You're arguing semantics rather than the core argument. I've clarified I meant cap gains, do you now have an opinion or no?

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #162 on: December 27, 2017, 11:45:52 AM »
You're arguing semantics rather than the core argument. I've clarified I meant cap gains, do you now have an opinion or no?

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Capital gains should be treated the same as ordinary income.  We should encourage MORE people to invest in our economy, not punish those who make a profit.  Taxes are used too often to shape behavior rather than simply fund the government.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

s197

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2017, 01:45:14 PM »
Capital gains should be treated the same as ordinary income.  We should encourage MORE people to invest in our economy, not punish those who make a profit.  Taxes are used too often to shape behavior rather than simply fund the government.
I agree, capital gains should be treated like normal income. But it isn't, nor will it ever be because that's where the ultra rich make their money.

I'm fine with incentives, but it should be fair. You shouldn't be able to get richer by paying lower taxes, which is what's happening.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2017, 02:21:57 PM »
I agree, capital gains should be treated like normal income. But it isn't, nor will it ever be because that's where the ultra rich make their money.

I'm fine with incentives, but it should be fair. You shouldn't be able to get richer by paying lower taxes, which is what's happening.

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You lost me.  You think the rich pay fewer taxes than the poor?  Than the lower-middle class?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #165 on: December 27, 2017, 04:02:23 PM »
If you guys like podcasts I found this one to be pretty informative on a couple of the larger issues with the new tax bill.

Interestingly I didn't know that my own small business is a pass-through entity. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/12/22/572926212/episode-814-the-tax-plan-is-huge

rklapp

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #166 on: December 27, 2017, 07:23:02 PM »
Here's one benefit of the tax bill. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-22/stalled-vegas-resort-now-a-go-as-developer-feels-tax-law-fervor

"The Fontainebleau, on roughly 27 acres (11 hectares) at the north end of the Strip, was about 70 percent complete when Icahn won court approval to take it over.

Witkoff was motivated by a provision in the new law that allows full and immediate expensing of capital investments. He said the plan’s passage will usher in a period of sustained economic growth, which would benefit the hotel and travel industries.

“You can just feel it,” said Witkoff, who’s been friends with the president for more than 30 years. “You can feel the pent-up fervor that’s happening out there, and it hasn’t even seeped through the system yet. And I’m not a Republican ideologue, for God’s sake.”
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #167 on: December 28, 2017, 06:30:32 AM »
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

s197

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #168 on: December 28, 2017, 11:36:16 AM »
You lost me.  You think the rich pay fewer taxes than the poor?  Than the lower-middle class?
On a percentage basis, yes. In absolute dollars, no.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #169 on: December 28, 2017, 01:51:32 PM »
On a percentage basis, yes. In absolute dollars, no.

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Then you should educate yourself.  Your beliefs are faulty...

Based on 2015 returns:


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/a-closer-look-at-who-does-and-doesnt-pay-u-s-income-tax/ft_17-10-04_taxes_stats/

The tip-top 0.1% of filers pay 20.2% of all taxes collected.
If you add the next tier, 0.8% of all filers pay 17.9% of taxes collected, which means the top 0.9% (roughly 1%) pays 38.1% of what is collected by the IRS.

The bottom 43.8% only pay in 1.4% of the total taxes collected.

In terms of actual dollars, the 0.9% top earners pay an effective average rate of 27.5%.  The bottom 43.8% pays in at a tax rate of 4.9% of their income.

No matter how you slice it, the top 1% is paying over 1/3 of what the IRS collects in total.  How can you possibly think they pay less in "absolute dollars?"



Based on 2014 returns:

Quote
Wonder how much the rich pay in federal income tax? According to estimates by the Tax Policy Foundation,
the top 1 percent of earners (incomes in excess of $615,000) are paying nearly half — 45.7 percent — of
individual income taxes for tax year 2014.

The top 20 percent, with incomes above $134,300, contribute nearly 84 percent of all federal income taxes.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of earners, those in the bottom 80 percent, pay about 15 percent, with the bottom
60 percent contributing 2 percent to federal income taxes.

https://www.bankrate.com/financing/wealth/what-does-1-percent-pay-in-taxes/
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 02:06:27 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #170 on: December 28, 2017, 02:46:46 PM »
On a percentage basis, yes. In absolute dollars, no.

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Well you need to qualify what types of tax dollars you are talking about. Capital gains do get taxed at a lower rate so if that is what you meant then yes some rich people do pay a lower tax rate than poor and middle class, but not all rich people earn money through capital gains either. If you are talking straight income tax rates then yes the rich are taxed at a higher rate.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #171 on: December 28, 2017, 02:59:49 PM »
Well you need to qualify what types of tax dollars you are talking about. Capital gains do get taxed at a lower rate so if that is what you meant then yes some rich people do pay a lower tax rate than poor and middle class, but not all rich people earn money through capital gains either. If you are talking straight income tax rates then yes the rich are taxed at a higher rate.

There are two types of capital gains -- short term and long term.  If you sell within 2 years, you pay the short term rate.

Short term tax rate = gains are treated as ordinary income, so it's dependent on the tax bracket you're in.

Long term tax rate = 0% to 20%, depending on your tax bracket.  For 0% and 15% brackets, long tern capital gains is 0%.  Anyone paying up to and including the 35% pays 15% on Capital gains.  39.6% tax bracket pays 20% on capital gains.

So, unless the wealthy individuals earn all their money from long term investments, they are paying a pretty hefty income tax already.  If they are living off of long term investments, they are paying a smaller percentage on that money in taxes, but they are still paying more than similar investors in lower brackets and those who only earn regular income from wages.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 07:46:16 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

rklapp

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2017, 09:35:44 AM »
The tax rate is progressive (richer people pay a higher percentage) but higher income people have more access to greater deductions. Isn't that why people voted for Trump because he's a tax genius and pays no taxes?

When I do my taxes, the software compares me to the average taxpayer in my Middle Class income range and I see all sorts of deductions that I'm not even remotely qualified for. Makes me wonder what I'm missing out on or if the data is fake.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2017, 09:58:53 AM »
The tax rate is progressive (richer people pay a higher percentage) but higher income people have more access to greater deductions. Isn't that why people voted for Trump because he's a tax genius and pays no taxes?

When I do my taxes, the software compares me to the average taxpayer in my Middle Class income range and I see all sorts of deductions that I'm not even remotely qualified for. Makes me wonder what I'm missing out on or if the data is fake.
I'm not a tax expert, I do my own taxes using Turbotax software. I see all those deductions as well. A lot of those are for carryovers and losses for some very high risk investments. I believe a lot of those are not very common as well.

I believe there was an investment thread started here some years ago that you might want to search for. It doesn't take much to get involved in investing even small amounts of money. And with ETF's you can invest in almost anything imaginable fromreal estate to oil to gold to indexes to pakalolo. All with very little seed money. You can even invest against the market or risk even more and invest in funds that go up 2x to 3x as fast as the market. I have an account with a couple of hundred in it I was going to close out but decided to buy 2 or 3 shares of the S&P 500 index and I have made over 20% this year on it.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2017, 10:00:31 AM »
The tax rate is progressive (richer people pay a higher percentage) but higher income people have more access to greater deductions. Isn't that why people voted for Trump because he's a tax genius and pays no taxes?

When I do my taxes, the software compares me to the average taxpayer in my Middle Class income range and I see all sorts of deductions that I'm not even remotely qualified for. Makes me wonder what I'm missing out on or if the data is fake.

Most people with those deductions are either in businesses where those deductions apply, or they have professional estate planners/accountants who know how to maximize their deductions.  I would wager Trump doesn't memorize the tax code and all changes year after year.  He has an accounting firm advising him, and he decides based on the options offered.

I don't begrudge anyone who is able to take advantage of legal tax deductions.  If they are playing by the rules, any amount they can wrestle away from Uncle Sam is a win for freedom from tyranny.  Remember, the Revolution started over taxes.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

zippz

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2017, 11:46:39 PM »
One reason the capital gains rate is lower is the risk involved.  You put money upfront and can lose it.  With a regular job you don't lose money at work unless you majorly screw something up.

It's also used to encourage investment into companies, especially startups or those that need money to expand. 

Inspector

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #176 on: December 30, 2017, 07:34:32 AM »
Companies usually buy back their own stock for a couple of reasons. One is to lower or eliminate the debt incurred when they sold shares in the company. This makes their balance sheet look better and will eventually give them a better bottom line and more cash. They use this cash to reinvest to expand, invest in new technologies and buy other companies. Another reason they buy back shares is that lowering the number of outstanding shares usually raises the price of the shares still outstanding. For those who own stock in the company, including employees, that raises their stock's value and also the company's value. It is a positive sign when a company starts buying back it's own shares of stock.

All of this is a positive and the lower corporate rate along with the lower tax rates will encourage more and more companies to do things like this. The more companies do this sort of thing the bettter and stronger the economy gets and the better the salaries/bonuses for the workers. It is not an instantaneous thing but something that occurs over time.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Kuleana

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #177 on: December 30, 2017, 09:16:30 AM »
All of this is a positive and the lower corporate rate along with the lower tax rates will encourage more and more companies to do things like this. The more companies do this sort of thing the bettter and stronger the economy gets and the better the salaries/bonuses for the workers. It is not an instantaneous thing but something that occurs over time.

This is what those who believe in these contentions hope happens.

However, empirically, what we have seen, especially in the case of the ultra-rich larger corporations, is the transfer of their profits to offshore banks to escape federal and state corporate taxation or investment in non-business expansionary related things like real estate, with both actions not contributing to the increase of workers wage or salaries and, in the case of real estate, contributing to the creation of unsustainable real estate bubbles.

ren

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #178 on: December 30, 2017, 09:42:24 AM »
This is what those who believe in these contentions hope happens.

However, empirically, what we have seen, especially in the case of the ultra-rich larger corporations, is the transfer of their profits to offshore banks to escape federal and state corporate taxation or investment in non-business expansionary related things like real estate, with both actions not contributing to the increase of workers wage or salaries and, in the case of real estate, contributing to the creation of unsustainable real estate bubbles.


Empirical data?
Do you own stocks?
Deeds Not Words

Inspector

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #179 on: December 30, 2017, 12:04:15 PM »
This is what those who believe in these contentions hope happens.

However, empirically, what we have seen, especially in the case of the ultra-rich larger corporations, is the transfer of their profits to offshore banks to escape federal and state corporate taxation or investment in non-business expansionary related things like real estate, with both actions not contributing to the increase of workers wage or salaries and, in the case of real estate, contributing to the creation of unsustainable real estate bubbles.

History shows that in times of high corporate tax rates you are somewhat to mostly correct. However, history also shows that in times of low corporate tax rates you are somewhat to mostly incorrect.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!