I have a home built with cinder block, and I'm curious to know if my ammo from my 12 gauge or M4 will penetrate my bedroom walls if I'm in a situation where I need to defend my home?  Common sense tells me yes, but will my buckshot penetrate through cinder block if at an angle, not straight ahead?  I'm asking this because if somebody tries to rob me, and I need to defend my bedroom, if I shoot at my door, it leads to another adjacent bedroom.  My m4 probably has more penetrating power, I think, but I think about this situation all the time, and I don't want to hurt anybody in my family trying To defend them.  M4 and my shotty are my only 2 options now that my mp15-22 is gone.  What are your thoughts on my situation?  And what types of rounds would I need to worry about penetrating my walls outside my home?  I feel safer in this cement home, but just a little bit...

I have a home built with cinder block, and I'm curious to know if my ammo from my 12 gauge or M4 will penetrate my bedroom walls if I'm in a situation where I need to defend my home?  Common sense tells me yes, but will my buckshot penetrate through cinder block if at an angle, not straight ahead?  I'm asking this because if somebody tries to rob me, and I need to defend my bedroom, if I shoot at my door, it leads to another adjacent bedroom.  My m4 probably has more penetrating power, I think, but I think about this situation all the time, and I don't want to hurt anybody in my family trying To defend them.  M4 and my shotty are my only 2 options now that my mp15-22 is gone.  What are your thoughts on my situation?  And what types of rounds would I need to worry about penetrating my walls outside my home?  I feel safer in this cement home, but just a little bit...

Shotgun is a better option than a M4.

#4 buck or larger is ideal.

I too live in a cinder block home and have 00 buck loaded in my shotgun.

Look thru here they did some penetration test.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Thanks for the info!  Very informative website and I like it, but I couldn't find any information about penetrating cinder block.  If u find any link to that info, can u please post it in here... 

Mahalos,
Daniel

Found it.  http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2_3.htm

Blocks that have been built into a wall have a different strength than one sitting on a table, so (while informative) the test results might not be 100% applicable. Also if you're in an apartment, the blocks have rebar/concrete fill...pretty solid, but even if that's the case I wouldn't risk it. Take KK's advice, put away the M4 and use #4 buck.

Chances are your walls that are on the exterior of your house are block. But chances are the walls that are interior only walls are not block. So if you are worried about hitting a neighbor, unless the round goes out a window I would not worry too much. But if you are worried about hitting others inside your house you will need to keep that under consideration as the interior walls of your house are probably not block walls and are made of framing and drywall. Much easier to penetrate than block walls.

There is ammunition on the market designed not to penetrate walls such as the Glaser Safety Slug, etc. Also, Federal has some new interesting ammo on the market called Bulldog (I think). It might cut down on penetration through walls as well.

Blocks that have been built into a wall have a different strength than one sitting on a table, so (while informative) the test results might not be 100% applicable. Also if you're in an apartment, the blocks have rebar/concrete fill...pretty solid, but even if that's the case I wouldn't risk it. Take KK's advice, put away the M4 and use #4 buck.

I agree.  If the blocks are grout filled then they will be very solid.  I highly doubt a .223/5/56 round will penetrate a grout filled cell. Even multiple rounds. 

A hollow tile that is not filled regardless of it being in a wall or on a table is another matter entirely and I can see it being penetrated after a couple of rounds.

Contrary to popular belief, 12 gauge has more penetration then M4 (5.56).

Take a look at this:


Courtesy of docgkr.

5.56 OTM/BTHP ammo generally offers little penetration through an intermediate barrier unless you're talking about bonded barrier blind loads. (Which makes it a great home defense round).

Contrary to popular belief, 12 gauge has more penetration then M4 (5.56).

Take a look at this:


5.56 OTM/BTHP ammo generally offers little penetration through an intermediate barrier unless you're talking about bonded barrier blind loads. (Which makes it a great home defense round).

Take a look at this:

You 

Me 

Contrary to popular belief, you dont know what youre talking about.

Take a look at this:

You 

Me 

Contrary to popular belief, you dont know what youre talking about.

Good thing you posted an emoticon titled 'geekdance' to back up your argument. Without it, I'd start to think you were just making unsubstantiated claims. Oh wait, you are.

LoL..!  U guys are too much haha...  But I didn't realize that about the buckshot,
And it does kind of make sense being that there is a lot more powder behind the projectiles.  If I am correct about the powder..?  But I don't want to give to much information before I can back it up.  But thanks u guys!!  U have no idea how much this information helps me...  Hmm..  Or maybe u do know?

LoL..!  U guys are too much haha...  But I didn't realize that about the buckshot,
And it does kind of make sense being that there is a lot more powder behind the projectiles.  If I am correct about the powder..?  But I don't want to give to much information before I can back it up.  But thanks u guys!!  U have no idea how much this information helps me...  Hmm..  Or maybe u do know?

The other thing to consider is the spread of the buckshot. How far away do you think the person could possibly be inside your house? In my house most areas would be a max of 10 yards or so. I believe the spread to only be a couple inches at that distance which means you'll still have to aim (dispelling another misconception I often hear when arguing in favor of a shotgun.. being able to just point it in the direction of your threat in middle of the night.. unfortunately is not the case).

Obviously if you train with your shotgun and shoot it a lot this is besides the point.. however if you shoot your M4 a lot and just leave your shotgun beside your bed I would suggest rethinking it all especially if you have a red dot optic on your M4 and none on your shotgun.

Good thing you posted an emoticon titled 'geekdance' to back up your argument. Without it, I'd start to think you were just making unsubstantiated claims. Oh wait, you are.

Ok, ok. I'll post a cartoon graph drawn by a second grader to substantiate my allegations.

Oh wait, you already did that. 

Ok, ok. I'll post a cartoon graph drawn by a second grader to substantiate my allegations.

Oh wait, you already did that. 

Oh look, more ignorance and more emoticons from Keoni. It's good to see nothing has changed around here.

Oh look, more ignorance and more emoticons from Keoni. It's good to see nothing has changed around here.

Ignorance?

Son, 200 years of research has PROVEN that a 12 gauge shotgun is your ideal weapon for home defense.

You keep your M4 if you want, but don't spew your ignorance, under the guise of good advise to people looking for legitimate advise.

Do a little research before you post bad advise.

Ignorance?

Son, 200 years of research has PROVEN that a 12 gauge shotgun is your ideal weapon for home defense.

You keep your M4 if you want, but don't spew your ignorance, under the guise of good advise to people looking for legitimate advise.

Do a little research before you post bad advise.

Still just talk, talk, talk with nothing to back up the talk.

I'm the only one of us to have posted anything fact based so far, yours is just talk.

200 years of research? You mean the same kind of 'research' that says cocking a shotgun is the only deterrent you need?  (Look an emoticon)

The OP asked about penetration. You did what you do best, talk, and provided him with some incorrect information and then got a 10 ton sand enema when I posted some evidence which shone a light on your misinformation.

To the OP: Apologies for the derail. There's a lot of information (with studies done) speaking highly of the 5.56 round in home defense situations. There are many articles on the net by DocGKR (Dr Gary Roberts, who did the chart I posted above) detailing the terminal ballistics of the many different calibers available to you. My advice would be to take a look with an open mind and make your own decision (something Keoni could also benefit from).

I'm done with this thread as there's no point going back and forth with Keoni for the next week. If Keoni had any real fact based information, he would have posted it already.

Damm, my bad.. I didn't think anybody was gonna go at each others throats.  I actually thought u 2 were just messing around.  But I take all advice shared in with consideration, and I agree that it will be ultimately my final choice. I got the 12 gauge only for home defense, but was really worried about the power of that firearm in close quarters at home.  M4 would have better control and aim, but for some reason I thought those 5.56 rounds would put holes through my brick walls and possibly hit my family member.  I always believe advice from others will help me make the correct decision, and I love taking in input and putting everything together.  If I have enough time I'll probably grab my shotty, but if it's a split second move, I have my M4 loaded with a full mag next to my bed.  It may seem that I'm weird or paranoid, but I've had a gun pointed at me twice, and shot at once.  And I caught somebody snooping around my house when I came home and my girlfriend was the only person home.  I just want to be prepared for the worst, but I always hope for the best.  I run through different scenarios in my head daily and try to figure out what my best moves would be in different positions and the conclusions they could possibly end In.  I am deffinately not scared to get hurt and I'm very protective with family and my CAR!  I guess I'm probably Legally retarded but all these preplans in my head help me get by looking normal LoL.

I honestly appreciate all of your guys advice, and I'm fortunate I get to gather knowledge from u folks.  Even though u 2 were going at it, u both shared a lot of knowledge by debating and that's actually how me and my friends are.  Lots of arguing, but we all learned something new at the end of the night.

X2 what gzire said. I think it pretty comical that some of you think either would penetrate

Damm, my bad.. I didn't think anybody was gonna go at each others throats.  I actually thought u 2 were just messing around.  But I take all advice shared in with consideration, and I agree that it will be ultimately my final choice. I got the 12 gauge only for home defense, but was really worried about the power of that firearm in close quarters at home.  M4 would have better control and aim, but for some reason I thought those 5.56 rounds would put holes through my brick walls and possibly hit my family member.  I always believe advice from others will help me make the correct decision, and I love taking in input and putting everything together.  If I have enough time I'll probably grab my shotty, but if it's a split second move, I have my M4 loaded with a full mag next to my bed.  It may seem that I'm weird or paranoid, but I've had a gun pointed at me twice, and shot at once.  And I caught somebody snooping around my house when I came home and my girlfriend was the only person home.  I just want to be prepared for the worst, but I always hope for the best.  I run through different scenarios in my head daily and try to figure out what my best moves would be in different positions and the conclusions they could possibly end In.  I am deffinately not scared to get hurt and I'm very protective with family and my CAR!  I guess I'm probably Legally retarded but all these preplans in my head help me get by looking normal LoL.

I honestly appreciate all of your guys advice, and I'm fortunate I get to gather knowledge from u folks.  Even though u 2 were going at it, u both shared a lot of knowledge by debating and that's actually how me and my friends are.  Lots of arguing, but we all learned something new at the end of the night.

OK............we talking brick, CMU (concrete masonry unit), grouted CMU, other?  CMU only IMHO isn't that tough.  Grouted CMU as I had stated above is pretty good considering it's probably at least 2,500 psi or better concrete/grout.  Brick I dunno man.  There could be a very wide variety and strengths, but my guess is it's probably better than ungrouted CMU.

As for knowledge..........I highly doubt anyone here has actually performed any actual tests.  Box O Truth is pretty neat.  I think that guy does some pretty nice tests.  Sometimes they are applicable to us, sometimes not.  One thing to consider though is we have gyp board down here usually instead of a cement/sheetrock board.  Gyp board IMHO is not near the strength of the cement/sheetrock, so when you consider penetration I feel they will be very different.

Anyhow............I'm wondering if the HRA or HDF guys might be talked into performing such a test at one of their meetings and posting the results.  It would be nice to get an actual field test done rather than playing keyboard warrior (brick, CMU, grouted CMU, gyp board, cement/sheetrock, single wall).


One more thing to consider.  Your AR15 is going to have a much better ammo capacity than the shotgun.  As with most things firearms related, there is no one best answer that fits all situations.  You're going to have to make a decision on what best fits your situation.  It will be a compromise.