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Ewa Beach Shooting (Read 32187 times)

dafrtknocker

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2018, 02:53:54 PM »
Harvey Gerwig, president of the Hawaii Rifle Association, said when it comes to using deadly force for self-defense, “there is virtually no protection of property (allowed) in the state of Hawaii.”

http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/04/19/hawaii-news/legality-uncertain-in-navy-officers-shooting/?HSA=49db591941214b3312fd2ae33b6e52766b309e1d
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Drakiir84

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2018, 09:09:36 PM »
Quote from: dafrtknocker on April 19, 2018, 02:53:54 PM
Harvey Gerwig, president of the Hawaii Rifle Association, said when it comes to using deadly force for self-defense, “there is virtually no protection of property (allowed) in the state of Hawaii.”

http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/04/19/hawaii-news/legality-uncertain-in-navy-officers-shooting/?HSA=49db591941214b3312fd2ae33b6e52766b309e1d
That is correct.

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"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."
-Jeff Cooper

6716J

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2018, 07:29:13 PM »
Quote from: zippz on April 18, 2018, 01:10:53 PM
There's two sides to it.  With training, you're less likely to get into a bad situation.  However if you do something wrong, then you shouldve known better.

Training is needed, along with periodic refresher training.
Training... Get as much as you possibly can

Document none of it.

That's conversation I've had with LEO from the mainland. The more training you have, the better for any prosecuting attorney to show you had training not to shoot and it wasn't just panic and luck for 2 in the chest and face get the rest (to quote the Dali Lama).

Also never ever use handloads as a self defense round. A good prosecutor can say you had (malicious) intent to kill not defend yourself.

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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Bushido

Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2018, 07:58:41 PM »
Quote from: 6716J on April 21, 2018, 07:29:13 PM
Also never ever use handloads as a self defense round. A good prosecutor can say you had (malicious) intent to kill not defend yourself.

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[/quote

Had this ever been proven? I hear it a lot but many have also said it has never affected an outcome.



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Bushido

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2018, 08:03:42 PM »
Can you provide links that prove that reloads can affect a SD shoot outcome? I have heard it tons of time online. I have also heard it had never come into play.


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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2018, 11:12:56 PM »
Quote from: Bushido on April 21, 2018, 08:03:42 PM
Can you provide links that prove that reloads can affect a SD shoot outcome? I have heard it tons of time online. I have also heard it had never come into play.


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There was a case in AZ against a hiker who shot & killed an unarmed man who was threatening bodily harm after the hiker fired a shot into the ground to scare off the attacker's two dogs running at him. 

While the ammo wasn't the nail in the prosecution's case, the prosecutor used both the 10MM caliber and hollow point ammo as factors against him.  The 10MM was characterized as "more powerful than what local Cops carry for self defense," and the hand loads as "created to cause more trauma and to kill compared to factory SD loads."

If the prosecutor can get the jury to see you as someone just aching to use his gun on someone, it works against you.  The defense attorney can easily defuse those arguments (same gun the Cops carry, same type ammo, etc.), but it's up to the lawyer doing their job.  Just more smoke the prosecutor can blow in the faces of the jury to use emotion versus facts.

That hiker was initially found guilty, but the conviction was overturned on appeal.  Nothing to do with the gun or ammo, but the trial judge prohibited testimony that the attacker had a violent past.


It comes down to choice and preference.  If you trust hand loads more than factory, use them.  Just be prepared to be accused of exceeding factory ammo "lethality" standards.  Aya says there is also a case where the attacker testified he was too far from the defender to be a threat.  GSR is one test they use to determine distance at which a shot was fired.  Even if the Cops have more rounds in your gun or at your home they can test, they will use factory ammo that they think closely matches yours.  That could be the difference between a forensic witness saying you fired at 6-8 feet versus 16 feet away.  An attacker approaching without a firearm might be considered a non-threat at 16 feet.

Here are some good points to consider -- not to base self defense choices on as much as what to expect if you ever have to defend your actions in court.

9 ways your firearm can be attacked in court

http://www.secondcalldefense.org/firearm-attacked-court
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

oldfart

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2018, 08:31:45 AM »
Quote from: Bushido on April 21, 2018, 08:03:42 PM
Can you provide links that prove that reloads can affect a SD shoot outcome? I have heard it tons of time online. I have also heard it had never come into play.
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==============

from my post about 1 year ago on another forum-

Someone will always ask, “show me a case where someone went to jail”.

Well, I do not have a case like that, but I will relate this personal cautionary tale.

Back in 19xx there was an infamous double-murder case here. At that time I had a modest ammunition manufacturing operation running and my customers were mostly LEO and competition shooters.

I was contacted by a prominent defense attorney who was representing the defendant.
He asked me to be an expert witness by examining the projectile recovered from the scene to see if I could identify what caliber it was.

He was trying to dispute the claim by the prosecutor that the weapon used in the shooting was a 357 magnum, thereby discrediting a key piece of evidence. He was assuming that I could testify that the projectile was the same as a 38 special projectile thus discrediting the 357 magnum theory. The 357 pistol was never recovered but the defendant had registered a sw 357 under his name.

Upon examining the projectile it was a 158 gr Jacketed soft point.
Now 20 something years ago, there was nobody around town selling 38-158 JSP.
In fact I could not find any factory 38-158 JSP from any source. (there is cheap foreign stuff being imported nowadays though)
There was however plenty of 357-158 JSP being sold pretty cheap at all the local shops.

When I presented my observations and conclusion to the defense team, they hurriedly thanked me and dismissed me. I did not fit their narrative.

I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that attorneys are not dummies. They will poke around at any angle you can dream of to prove their case, be it criminal or civil. This is why I load my pistol with the same factory ammo that the local police are issued. If something unfortunate happens, I do NOT want to be painted as being a mad scientist concocting evil killer bullets in my reloading laboratory.

addendum-
I would also like to add that while it is unlikely that you will be charged with a crime for a righteous shooting, suppose the perp survives and is left with a crippling injury?
Sure he may serve some time after he gets out of the hospital, but think about how much free time he has to contemplate getting even via a civil lawsuit.
In a civil case, all it takes is a preponderance of evidence to prevail. Don't think for a second that a sharp attorney is going to overlook every aspect of the case, including the ammunition used.

Monetary awards can be divided due to the degree of blame. The total judgement could be millions if the perp is crippled for life.
The judge may split the blame between you and the perp which could still leave you liable for millions.

All it takes is a little bit of evidence to tip the balance in civil suits.
I am not an attorney.
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What, Me Worry?

RSN172

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2018, 08:34:08 PM »
Quote from: oldfart on April 22, 2018, 08:31:45 AM
==============

addendum-
I would also like to add that while it is unlikely that you will be charged with a crime for a righteous shooting, suppose the perp survives and is left with a crippling injury?
Sure he may serve some time after he gets out of the hospital, but think about how much free time he has to contemplate getting even via a civil lawsuit.
In a civil case, all it takes is a preponderance of evidence to prevail. Don't think for a second that a sharp attorney is going to overlook every aspect of the case, including the ammunition used.

Monetary awards can be divided due to the degree of blame. The total judgement could be millions if the perp is crippled for life.
The judge may split the blame between you and the perp which could still leave you liable for millions.

All it takes is a little bit of evidence to tip the balance in civil suits.
I am not an attorney.

I suppose that is why 2 retired LEOs I know, one Federal and one HPD, told me if I have to shoot someone in self defense, make sure I kill them.  From experience, they told me officers who shot someone who survived the shooting had far more problems than those who shot and killed the perp.  One advantage I know is there will likely be only one side to tell the story in a home invasion or home defense situation.
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Happily living in Puna

RSN172

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2018, 08:54:05 PM »
Another thing is, posted signs like “I don’t call 911” or “Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again” etc., are far worse than having any kind of “killer” handloads.  Yet I see a lot of signs like these round where I live.  If those people ever had to shoot someone, the prosecuting attorney will have a field day using that against them.  The same thing applies to “Beware of Dog” signs if your dog bites someone.  Attorneys have used that to say the owner knew the dog was dangerous by posting that sign.

This is the sign I have on my gate.

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Happily living in Puna

oldfart

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2018, 09:16:38 PM »
Quote from: RSN172 on April 22, 2018, 08:34:08 PM
I suppose that is why 2 retired LEOs I know, one Federal and one HPD, told me if I have to shoot someone in self defense, make sure I kill them.  From experience, they told me officers who shot someone who survived the shooting had far more problems than those who shot and killed the perp.  One advantage I know is there will likely be only one side to tell the story in a home invasion or home defense situation.
...
I don't think that strategy should be discussed on a public forum.
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What, Me Worry?

eyeeatingfish

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2018, 09:24:30 PM »
Quote from: oldfart on April 22, 2018, 09:16:38 PM
...
I don't think that strategy should be discussed on a public forum.

I also don't think it is accurate advice either. I mean it makes sense on a certain level but I would not say it is wise advice at all because you cannot justify the extra round because you were afraid of getting sued.

I think the best advice is what they teach cops. You shoot to stop the threat.
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RSN172

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2018, 09:35:41 PM »
Stopping the threat is what you tell the cops.  Sometimes it may take a head shot to do it.  I have been to Front Sight four times for training.  They teach you to put a minimum of two shots center mass.  Every once in awhile the instructors call for a follow up head shot because the two shots center mass did not stop the threat.
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Happily living in Puna

dogman

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2018, 10:31:56 PM »
Quote from: RSN172 on April 22, 2018, 08:54:05 PM
The same thing applies to “Beware of Dog” signs if your dog bites someone.  Attorneys have used that to say the owner knew the dog was dangerous by posting that sign.
My attorney, who I trust, told me to put up a "Beware of Dog" sign and it would be beneficial to me if my dogs did injure someone trespassing on my property. That was fourteen years ago.
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RSN172

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 06:20:23 AM »
I don't want to steer this off topic, but dog signs can go both ways.  It is recommended to put a No Tresspassing or Do Not Enter sign instead.  Your property should be fenced.
https://iheartdogs.com/beware-of-dog-signs-precaution-or-liability/

The sign on my gate says Go Away and Do Not Enter written in Japanese, more as a joke for my friends, as none of them on the Big Island can read Japanese. 
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Happily living in Puna

drck1000

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 08:27:03 AM »
Quote from: dogman on April 22, 2018, 10:31:56 PM
My attorney, who I trust, told me to put up a "Beware of Dog" sign and it would be beneficial to me if my dogs did injure someone trespassing on my property. That was fourteen years ago.
I've met your dogs and they are super sweet.  Maybe death by face licking?   ;D
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drck1000

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2018, 08:32:04 AM »
Sorry, back on topic.

I haven't seen any further information.  Last I read/heard was that the homeowner shot through a closed door.  I of course wasn't there, but given the information so far, but first thought was warning shot.  Could be any number of things, but that was my first impression.  If there's more to the story, so be it, but I suspect we'll never find out what truly happened. 

Sad situation overall. 
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oldfart

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2018, 08:43:22 AM »
On khon tv news there was a picture of a patched up hole in the door...not a good thing.
...
Re. Dog?
Aieahound met my dog and said the dog would lick any intruder to death.
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What, Me Worry?

zippz

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2018, 09:00:02 AM »
Quote from: oldfart on April 23, 2018, 08:43:22 AM
On khon tv news there was a picture of a patched up hole in the door...not a good thing

Looked high up on the door.  Probably got hit in the head.
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drck1000

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2018, 09:11:14 AM »
Yeah, I saw the pic of the patched hole.  I also don't recall seeing a section of glass viewing window in the door either (but there very well may have been). 
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Heavies

Re: Ewa Beach Shooting
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2018, 09:52:51 AM »
Any number of things could have happened.  Some how I don't think the guy was quietly trying to get through the door...     Tragic, but I cannot blame the homeowner at all, with the limited current evidence that was given.
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