Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter (Read 357 times)

drck1000

Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« on: May 14, 2018, 09:08:40 AM »
A friend shared this with me this morning and I thought I would share here. 

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2018/05/lights-in-a-gunfight-the-truth-of-the-matter.html

I haven't done a low/no light shoot in a while, but it is something that I'm always interested in doing more of, but just not much opportunity to do so.  Closest thing I've done recently is a short course on use of lights in structures.  One of those things where it's good to experience the effects of lighting through experience, like how your eyes adjust. 

I did a quick read of the article and the author brings up many good points, but also some points that I don't agree with.  I've never taken a course with Gabe Suarez, so I don't have any personal experience of my own about him.  I know many who have taken a bunch of classes with him and have also shot with many of them.  Experience with those folks as well as other articles and videos from Gabe Suarez and his group is what I have to go on.  While I think I can always learn something for any instructor or course, I don't see myself pursuing training with Suarez group.  However, this article does bring up many points for discussion, both good and bad, at least IMO.

changemyoil66

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 09:45:03 AM »
I've brought my handheld light to the HDF shoot just to find the best shooting position.  I didn't turn it on (was day time).  But realized the best 1 handed for me was holding the light to my cheap with elbow tucked in.  I didn't do the "FBI" style or the "cross hands" you see in the movies.  My accuracy was better with the light against my cheek. 

I did try the above at home while dry firing, but needed to feel the real recoil.  Because while at home dry firing, the cross hands felt the best, but at the range for accuracy, light to cheek worked better due to recoil management.

And with 2 hands on the gun, the light between my support hand fingers (middle and ring finger) worked good.  I was able to reload with no issues.  But the down side is the beam wasn't pointed straight.  But straight enough to illuminate.

I have no official training, just what I see on youtube.  But my home is never pitch black due to outside light entering.  I actually don't even need a light.  Wasn't able to test with an entire power outage (no street light coming in).  But can imagine in a Vegas hotel and pitch black room/hallway.

ren

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2018, 10:45:59 AM »
Suarez charges quite a bit and he did a few classes here years ago with some LE agencies.
Mixed reactions from participants.
He was an SMPD officer but was let go because of workers comp fraud.
This my vehicle. You. . . . . .pedestrian!

drck1000

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 11:36:43 AM »
I've brought my handheld light to the HDF shoot just to find the best shooting position.  I didn't turn it on (was day time).  But realized the best 1 handed for me was holding the light to my cheap with elbow tucked in.  I didn't do the "FBI" style or the "cross hands" you see in the movies.  My accuracy was better with the light against my cheek. 

I did try the above at home while dry firing, but needed to feel the real recoil.  Because while at home dry firing, the cross hands felt the best, but at the range for accuracy, light to cheek worked better due to recoil management.

And with 2 hands on the gun, the light between my support hand fingers (middle and ring finger) worked good.  I was able to reload with no issues.  But the down side is the beam wasn't pointed straight.  But straight enough to illuminate.

I have no official training, just what I see on youtube.  But my home is never pitch black due to outside light entering.  I actually don't even need a light.  Wasn't able to test with an entire power outage (no street light coming in).  But can imagine in a Vegas hotel and pitch black room/hallway.
Yeah, some of those techniques with the handheld lights can be funky and awesome that you're trying when shooting. 

The article mentions use of a switch that you can use your shooting hand to activate the light on the gun.  I've tried that with the Surefire X300 and I couldn't get used to it.  I found myself activating the light inadvertantly.  I guess I could have kept trying and gotten used to it, but right now, that switch is in my parts box. 

Suarez charges quite a bit and he did a few classes here years ago with some LE agencies.
Mixed reactions from participants.
He was an SMPD officer but was let go because of workers comp fraud.
I checked their current training schedule and their prices are pretty competitive.  Seems like it depends if Gabe is slated as the instructor or others in their training cadre. 

I had heard of Gabe doing training locally years ago, but that was before I was pursuing training like that. 

changemyoil66

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 12:41:44 PM »
DCK, good thing you figured that out during practice and not a real event.  I thought about even bringing a beach chair to the range and shooting from that.  To simulate me sitting down and having to shoot while watching TV.  Just to make sure there are no surprises.

We all prepare/plan as best as we can, but Murphy is a hell of a guy.

drck1000

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 01:27:54 PM »
DCK, good thing you figured that out during practice and not a real event.  I thought about even bringing a beach chair to the range and shooting from that.  To simulate me sitting down and having to shoot while watching TV.  Just to make sure there are no surprises.

We all prepare/plan as best as we can, but Murphy is a hell of a guy.
Not many opportunities to do so here, but try drawing when sitting in a car.  With a seatbelt on... 

changemyoil66

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 07:38:56 PM »
Not many opportunities to do so here, but try drawing when sitting in a car.  With a seatbelt on...
I live in an open garage apt. But i did try getting in my car with plate carrier and owb drop leg. Had to squeeze in. I was at bay side at kkhsc and had to drive the mrs to the restroom. Didnt want to walk to the restrooms.

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Surf

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 08:41:16 PM »
I don't see myself pursuing training with Suarez group. 
As you know, I encourage people to seek as much training as possible from as many credible organizations/trainers as possible.  However, I would suggest going with your gut instinct in this instance.

zippz

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 09:26:06 PM »
I was hoping for an interesting read, but author lost a lot of credibility in their first point and I lost interest from that point.  You don't just shoot anyone in your dark home even if you live alone.  You will probably be justified in shooting a drunk neighbor that stumbles into the wrong house, but do you really want to take their life?  I guess it's up to each person.  You really need to ID your target and determine if they're a threat.  You need to see who they are and what they have in their hands.  It'll take you longer to do that in dim light, faster in brighter light.

I've always used a separate handheld light, usually held in the Harries...sometimes FBI depending on the situation.

For cheap low-light training, you can try Front Sight in Nevada.  I've taken their night courses which go over flashlight use and going through the shoothouse.
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drck1000

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2018, 06:47:37 AM »
I was hoping for an interesting read, but author lost a lot of credibility in their first point and I lost interest from that point.  You don't just shoot anyone in your dark home even if you live alone.  You will probably be justified in shooting a drunk neighbor that stumbles into the wrong house, but do you really want to take their life?  I guess it's up to each person.  You really need to ID your target and determine if they're a threat.  You need to see who they are and what they have in their hands.  It'll take you longer to do that in dim light, faster in brighter light.

I've always used a separate handheld light, usually held in the Harries...sometimes FBI depending on the situation.

For cheap low-light training, you can try Front Sight in Nevada.  I've taken their night courses which go over flashlight use and going through the shoothouse.
As with many things in life, one can learn from good points shared, but some of the most valuable lessons can often be from how NOT to do things.  I mainly shared this article to spur discussion on a topic that I think many either don't think about use of light in a gunfight or think "eh, I'm good.  I get 'em".  Yes, point #1 is one that I don't fully agree with, particularly shooting a unidentified person.  However, I do feel the people often have misconceptions of light use in structures and most of that comes from TV and movies, like many misconceptions with firearms. 

Points #2 and #3 are excellent points for discussion, at least IMO.  I don't have any kids at home, but the ability to have one hand free to guide or carry a loved one is an important consideration.  Something I was taught to at least consider in a home defense course.  That's where I was encouraged and tried the use of the switch on the fire control hand and found that I didn't like it.  #3 gets brought up often, especially with gun mounted lights.  However, you can illuminate quite a bit without directly pointing the gun at a person.  I'm not saying that's the best way or even advisable, but something that many don't realize until they at least try. 

changemyoil66

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2018, 09:07:38 AM »
What I've learned about articles is you will get 2 things from them.  Either what to do or what not to do.  Because everyone's situations are different.  Like in my home, only my wife and I live there. So trying to gather children is not a requirement yet.   And our home only has 1 entrance (including all windows), so needing to scan sectors are also out for now.

And in Hawaii, use of deadly force requirements apply (death, serious injury, etc...).  Compared to other states that have a "make my day" law or where you can use deadly force to protect property.  So here, we have to ID our target to see if the above requirement is met, or we might end up in jail.

Heavies

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 09:40:09 AM »
I have a WML on my HD pistol.  Don't like having to fumble around with two hand held items in a time of stress.  Indirect intermittent illumination is, hopefully, good to identify a target.  I have a Surefire xc-1 right now.  It's pretty good for me, but I don't like the slide constant on switch.  I've been tempted to try the new Olight PL-mini with the better switch, but not completely confident in china made light....  I've heard good things about Olights. Anyone have any experience with them?

drck1000

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2018, 10:04:25 AM »
I have a WML on my HD pistol.  Don't like having to fumble around with two hand held items in a time of stress.  Indirect intermittent illumination is, hopefully, good to identify a target.  I have a Surefire xc-1 right now.  It's pretty good for me, but I don't like the slide constant on switch.  I've been tempted to try the new Olight PL-mini with the better switch, but not completely confident in china made light....  I've heard good things about Olights. Anyone have any experience with them?
I have X300s on my Glock 17s.  I've been wanting to try the XC-1, but haven't been able to justify buying one when I have the X300s.  How's the throw on that small lens?  I assume it would be good for inside a home, but never had the chance to handle one.  If I got a Glock 19, I think I'd partner with the XC-1.

I like the momentary on feature of the X300's lever, where you can push it forward for momentary on, then you can turn/flip the lever for constant on.  A buddy has a TLR-1 on his gun and the lever on that one can be used in a similar fashion. 

Haven't even heard of the Olight.  Seems like a nice compact light.  One drawback would be availability of holsters. 

Heavies

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 11:18:29 AM »
I have X300s on my Glock 17s.  I've been wanting to try the XC-1, but haven't been able to justify buying one when I have the X300s.  How's the throw on that small lens?  I assume it would be good for inside a home, but never had the chance to handle one.  If I got a Glock 19, I think I'd partner with the XC-1.

I like the momentary on feature of the X300's lever, where you can push it forward for momentary on, then you can turn/flip the lever for constant on.  A buddy has a TLR-1 on his gun and the lever on that one can be used in a similar fashion. 

Haven't even heard of the Olight.  Seems like a nice compact light.  One drawback would be availability of holsters. 

For throw, my current home has an approximate 12 yard  hallway, that would be the longest shot possible inside the house.  The XC-1 is more than adequate for that task, even with indirect beam.   I have it installed on a CZ P-01 Compact (CZ Customs PROTEK).  It sits flush with the barrel, very nice fit, and operable with either the firing finger or support thumb(in intermittent mode)  The push switch only allows intermittent, a slide switch must be pushed from left to right to activate constant on, which is why I am looking at the Olight, who's switch operation is the same as the Inforce lights, push down for intermittent, quick tap for constant on.  The Olight looks to be the same size as the XC-1.

Didn't see the need for a more powerful light since Hawaii prohibits self defense outside the home, even on your own property :crazy: ,  I would choose a different tool for something like that anyway, which is equipped as such...

Having a CZ I had to have a semi-custom holster made for the light and pistol combo.  Naturally a glock will have more options readily available.  The Olight is becoming very popular, I am sure the holster makers will have many choices for a glock Olight combo soon.

drck1000

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2018, 11:58:57 AM »
For throw, my current home has an approximate 12 yard  hallway, that would be the longest shot possible inside the house.  The XC-1 is more than adequate for that task, even with indirect beam.   I have it installed on a CZ P-01 Compact (CZ Customs PROTEK).  It sits flush with the barrel, very nice fit, and operable with either the firing finger or support thumb(in intermittent mode)  The push switch only allows intermittent, a slide switch must be pushed from left to right to activate constant on, which is why I am looking at the Olight, who's switch operation is the same as the Inforce lights, push down for intermittent, quick tap for constant on.  The Olight looks to be the same size as the XC-1.

Didn't see the need for a more powerful light since Hawaii prohibits self defense outside the home, even on your own property :crazy: ,  I would choose a different tool for something like that anyway, which is equipped as such...

Having a CZ I had to have a semi-custom holster made for the light and pistol combo.  Naturally a glock will have more options readily available.  The Olight is becoming very popular, I am sure the holster makers will have many choices for a glock Olight combo soon.
My place isn't very big either.  Maybe about the same max distance as your place.  And yeah, the X300 (original and not the ultra) is plenty bright for my place.  I have older Surefires where they are in the 180 lumen range and they are plenty bright too.  I also have some in the 320 to 700 + range as well, but "needing" that kind of lumen level wasn't a big consideration.  I still remember when the old school Maglites were considered awesome.  They are probably what, 50-80 lumens.

I have a bunch of Streamlights hand held lights in various sizes.  I had a Protac 1L (pretty small) on me when I was in a pretty rural area last weekend and at 350 lumens, that allowed me to see most, if not all the way across the property.  I would guess well over 200 yards in some areas.  That Protac 1L is what I would consider a smaller, pocket sized light.

I have a buddy that does custom kydex holsters and would be willing to make one for me in whatever combination I get.  I just haven't taken him up on that offer yet.  However, the availability of holster and other stuff for Glocks is definitely a plus.  That said, I've been noticing a lot more for CZ these days. 

changemyoil66

Re: Lights in a Gunfight - The Truth of the Matter
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 09:10:21 AM »
KM Concepts can make custom kydex for any pistol and mod.