Rather than continue this as a tangent/peripheral topic on the Keapernick/Nike thread, I'm posting this article url here as a separate thread. I hope people will read it.

https://mises.org/power-market/cop-amber-guyger-one-reason-we-need-private-gun-ownership

Cop Amber Guyger Is One Reason We Need Private Gun Ownership

When advocates of gun confiscation complain about "guns" and say "no one needs a gun for x" all they are really saying — whether they understand it or not — is "I want only cops and soldiers to have guns."

While gun control advocates often claim to be suspicious of police power, logic dictates that the gun-confiscation position is simply the position that only government employees should have guns. Similarly, more mild gun-regulation positions are designed to increase the coercive power of government over the taxpaying citizenry, and to lessen access to private sources of self-defense — thus increasing private-sector dependence on government police for "protection."  The gun-regulation position is premised on the idea that only the police can really be trusted with gun ownership.

And what a terrible position that is.

* * * * *
(Another egregious case not mentioned in the above article is this one: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/20/justine-damond-shooting-police-officer-mohamed-noor-charged

But at least in that case the Somali-born officer Mohamed Noor has been charged with second degree murder. Unknown at this point what "allowances" will be made due to his being a police officer.)

Rather than continue this as a tangent/peripheral topic on the Keapernick/Nike thread, I'm posting this article url here as a separate thread. I hope people will read it.

https://mises.org/power-market/cop-amber-guyger-one-reason-we-need-private-gun-ownership

Cop Amber Guyger Is One Reason We Need Private Gun Ownership

When advocates of gun confiscation complain about "guns" and say "no one needs a gun for x" all they are really saying — whether they understand it or not — is "I want only cops and soldiers to have guns."

While gun control advocates often claim to be suspicious of police power, logic dictates that the gun-confiscation position is simply the position that only government employees should have guns. Similarly, more mild gun-regulation positions are designed to increase the coercive power of government over the taxpaying citizenry, and to lessen access to private sources of self-defense — thus increasing private-sector dependence on government police for "protection."  The gun-regulation position is premised on the idea that only the police can really be trusted with gun ownership.

And what a terrible position that is.

* * * * *
(Another egregious case not mentioned in the above article is this one: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/20/justine-damond-shooting-police-officer-mohamed-noor-charged

But at least in that case the Somali-born officer Mohamed Noor has been charged with second degree murder. Unknown at this point what "allowances" will be made due to his being a police officer.)

Exactly.....

That brings up an interesting question... if a cop walked into your house and yelled at you "what are you doing in my apartment?!" and started pulling his/her gun, would you shoot at them? Would private gun ownership have change the outcome?

The cop was charged with manslaughter which seems appropriate from what I have learned about the case so far. It really is an unfortunate event all around. A man is dead who shouldn't have been dead and his family is grieving, and the shooters life is ruined over the dumb but honest mistake. I have been mulling over the question of what would be an appropriate sentence for her but it is a tough question.

That brings up an interesting question... if a cop walked into your house and yelled at you "what are you doing in my apartment?!" and started pulling his/her gun, would you shoot at them? Would private gun ownership have change the outcome?

The cop was charged with manslaughter which seems appropriate from what I have learned about the case so far. It really is an unfortunate event all around. A man is dead who shouldn't have been dead and his family is grieving, and the shooters life is ruined over the dumb but honest mistake. I have been mulling over the question of what would be an appropriate sentence for her but it is a tough question.

Have you not been seeing the local news this year?  Several home invasions in Hawaii were committed by crooks pretending to be law enforcement.  I'm sure that happens everywhere.  The guy who fended off 3 home invaders with an AR-15 in Oklahoma, IIRC, reported they called out "Sheriff's Office!" as they broke into the trailer.

Having said that, if someone has a gun on me, I'll comply with their commands even if they're wearing pointy ears and claiming to be Mr. Spock.  If she escalated to lethal force immediately, him having a gun or not was not a factor.

Remember, the good thing is, he always made it home safe at the end of his shift.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/15/border-patrol-agent-arrested-accused-killing-4-women-and-kidnapping-5th.html

Border Patrol agent arrested, accused of killing 4 women and kidnapping a 5th

The district attorney’s office intends to charge Ortiz with four counts of murder and one count of aggravated kidnapping.

They both made it home safe at the end of their shift. They weren't charged with any crime. They still have their jobs. They still get to carry, even off duty. The body cam videos "will be released at some future date". I'm sure you or I would have been treated the same way with the same results had we done what the officers did, right? No special treatment, right? Equal justice under the law, right?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/14/portland-state-cops-avoid-charges-in-death-navy-vet-trying-to-break-up-fight.html

Portland State cops avoid charges in death of Navy vet trying to break up fight

The two Portland State University campus police officers who fatally shot a U.S. Navy veteran and father of three who was trying to break up a fight outside a bar in June won’t be indicted, a grand jury ruled Thursday.

Officers Shawn McKenzie and James Dewey were cleared of criminal charges in the shooting death of Jason Washington, 45, the Multnomah County District Attorney's Office said in a news release.

Washington’s widow, Michelle, said that the family was disappointed the officers wouldn’t be charged.

"We want those responsible for the death of my husband to be held accountable,” she said in a statement obtained by the Oregonian. “We will always remember and love Jason and know he was needlessly killed while attempting to keep the peace."

Officers Shawn McKenzie and James Dewey were cleared of criminal charges in the shooting death of Jason Washington

Well, of course they were..................and contributing massively to the distrust of cops everywhere.

Well, of course they were..................and contributing massively to the distrust of cops everywhere.

Don’t trust them nor do I have much use for a lot of them.... necessary evil I guess.....

Have you not been seeing the local news this year?  Several home invasions in Hawaii were committed by crooks pretending to be law enforcement.  I'm sure that happens everywhere.  The guy who fended off 3 home invaders with an AR-15 in Oklahoma, IIRC, reported they called out "Sheriff's Office!" as they broke into the trailer.

Having said that, if someone has a gun on me, I'll comply with their commands even if they're wearing pointy ears and claiming to be Mr. Spock.  If she escalated to lethal force immediately, him having a gun or not was not a factor.

I agree.

My question was just getting at whether someone would be willing/able to shoot at a cop they believed was about to shoot at them for no known reason. Kind of a tough call, I could see people hesitating. Had he been armed and had time to shoot back, would he have?

There have been armed homeowners who were killed by police in circumstances that shouldn't have happened before. A wrong address on a search warrant, a homeowner shooting a burglar at the same time police arrived, etc.

Well, heck, he only "injured"  a few students in the classroom where his gun "accidentally discharged"... no biggie. He resigned as a cop and a teacher, but he's still mayor. I'm sure you are I would be treated the same, right?

https://www.ksbw.com/article/da-announces-outcome-of-dennis-alexander-classroom-gun-incident/21073949

DA reveals outcome of Dennis Alexander classroom gun incident

When Alexander's gun fired into a ceiling -- injuring some Seaside High students with falling ceiling debris -- he did not commit a crime, prosecutors concluded. He also didn't violate any laws when he allowed students to handle his police service weapon and take selfies with it.

In the wake of the classroom gun incident, Alexander resigned from his positions as a teacher and a police officer. He still remains as the mayor pro tem of Seaside, and he recently swore in Seaside's new police chief.

[Please note the incredible irony and stupidity of this idiot moron cop in the following description by the district attorney who found the cop violated no laws...]

"On March 13, 2018, Dennis Alexander, a reserve Sand City police officer, was teaching a class at Seaside High School called Public Safety Fundamentals. He decided to demonstrate to his class that because a police officer’s holster has a double lock, a perpetrator cannot disarm an officer by removing an officer’s handgun from its holster. While standing in front of the class, Alexander explained to students what he was going to do, and at the same time attempted to unload his semi-automatic Glock handgun before the demonstration. To properly do so, Alexander needed to remove the magazine, then rack the slide to eject any round in the chamber. Instead, Alexander first racked the slide (which put a round in the chamber) and then removed the magazine. He inadvertently reversed the procedure. As he was talking to students (indicating a degree of divided attention) he pointed the gun toward the ceiling and pulled the trigger to ensure no round was in the chamber. Alexander was mistaken and the gun discharged," prosecutors wrote.

We don't know yet if he will receive "special treatment". We do know that he has not been fired, only "placed on leave pending the results of the investigation".

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/16/us/oregon-ice-officer-arrested/index.html

ICE officer arrested on multiple sodomy charges, Oregon state police say

A deportation officer with US Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was arrested on multiple counts of sodomy last week, according to an Oregon State Police news release.

Blake V. Northway, 55, was arrested Thursday after a joint investigation between state police and ICE's Office of Professional Responsibility. He was charged with 10 counts of sodomy and one count of incest, according to online records with the Jackson County Sheriff's Office. Northway is being held on $1 million bail at the Jackson County Jail, according to those online records.

Tanya Roman, ICE spokeswoman, was quoted in the state police news release as saying the agency holds "its officers to the highest standards of professional conduct and does not tolerate those who violate the law."

"ICE will continue to cooperate until this case has been resolved," Roman said.

Northway has been relieved of all ICE authority and placed on leave pending the results of the criminal investigation, state police said.

I agree.

My question was just getting at whether someone would be willing/able to shoot at a cop they believed was about to shoot at them for no known reason. Kind of a tough call, I could see people hesitating. Had he been armed and had time to shoot back, would he have?

There have been armed homeowners who were killed by police in circumstances that shouldn't have happened before. A wrong address on a search warrant, a homeowner shooting a burglar at the same time police arrived, etc.

^^^This.  But only if they kicked the door in.  If they knocked and ID'd themselves, then I would call 911 to verify.  And come out unarmed and willingly.  But kicking the door in and having a flashbang go off is a diff story.  All I know is I heard a the door get kicked in, followed by a loud bang.  My hearing would probably be gone so would I be able to hear "Police, search warrant" after being flashbanged?

I'll be the first to admit that the person killed was likely a punk thief thug, but... if you're 15 feet away, and walking away with your back to someone, I doubt any non-cop would still be walking free years after the video corroborating those facts was released. Then there's the other cops lying to protect their "brother". "Special treatment"? The jury will decide shortly.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/17/opening-arguments-begin-in-murder-trial-white-chicago-cop-who-shot-black-teen.html

Opening arguments begin in murder trial of white Chicago cop who shot black teen

Calling the killing “completely unnecessary,” prosecutors on Monday showed 12 jurors video of white Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke fatally shooting black teenager Laquan McDonald 16 times – as opening arguments began in a murder trial that has captivated the country and reopened deep wounds about policing in minority communities.

Prosecutors showed the 2014 dashcam video that shows Van Dyke unloading bullets into McDonald as the teen walked away from officers. There was a 3-inch small retractable knife in McDonald’s hand.

His partner and two other officers face trial this fall on conspiracy and obstruction of justice charges. Prosecutors allege they lied to protect Van Dyke, filing reports that echoed his statement that McDonald was a danger. Two are no longer on the force.

Van Dyke contends he shot McDonald 16 times as the teen swung a knife at him. The video — released 13 months later after a court order — shows McDonald holding a knife at the side of his body, about 15 feet away from Van Dyke, walking away from him and other officers who had responded to a report that McDonald was trying to break into vehicles.

“It’s a new chapter but the same theme — police racism, violence and a code of silence,” says G. Flint Taylor, a civil rights lawyer and frequent critic of the Chicago police.

In the last 10 years, 52 officers in a force of 13,000 have been fired for on-the-job misconduct, five for excessive force, according to the department.

What lawyers say connects many other egregious misconduct cases is a code of silence that allowed abuses to continue for years, even decades.

Craig Futterman, a University of Chicago law professor, says these problems aren’t unique among big city police forces, but they are extreme. He calls it an “institutional commitment to denial” that kicks in each time an officer does something wrong.

“It’s not just simply staying silent in the face of abuse, but it’s lying,” he said. “It’s crafting an official narrative that denies this happened ... that will be backed up and down (within the department).”

^^^This.  But only if they kicked the door in.  If they knocked and ID'd themselves, then I would call 911 to verify.  And come out unarmed and willingly.  But kicking the door in and having a flashbang go off is a diff story.  All I know is I heard a the door get kicked in, followed by a loud bang.  My hearing would probably be gone so would I be able to hear "Police, search warrant" after being flashbanged?

And when they enter they have flashlights in your face so you can't even tell who they are. I understand why they have to do it that way but in the right unfortunate circumstances it can mean a dead innocent person and maybe a dead cop as well.

Just the idea scares me when I run through scenarios in my head of hearing a bump in the night outside.

And when they enter they have flashlights in your face so you can't even tell who they are. I understand why they have to do it that way but in the right unfortunate circumstances it can mean a dead innocent person and maybe a dead cop as well.

Just the idea scares me when I run through scenarios in my head of hearing a bump in the night outside.

Please list the cases where a police raid on a mistaken address or person resulted in the death of a cop. You should know that's never happened. The thing we don't know is the actual total number of innocent people killed by cops in those "circumstances", aka "tragic circumstances of mistaken identity/address".

"Charged". Now (eventually) we get to see what will happen. And compare that result to what would happen to "an ordinary citizen" who acted the same way. No "special treatment"?

Justine Damond shooting: police officer Mohamed Noor charged with murder

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/20/justine-damond-shooting-police-officer-mohamed-noor-charged

[The victim killed by police had called them to report a possible sexual assault outside her apartment and was approaching their vehicle to tell them about what she had heard.]

“In the short time between when Ms Damond Ruszczyk approached the squad car and the time that Noor fired the fatal shot, there is no evidence that officer Noor encountered a threat, appreciated a threat, investigated a threat or confirmed a threat that justified his decision to use deadly force,” Freeman said in prepared remarks. “Instead, officer Noor recklessly and intentionally fired his handgun from the passenger seat, in disregard for human life.”

The officers did not turn on their body cameras until after the shooting and there was no squad camera video.

"Charged". Now (eventually) we get to see what will happen. And compare that result to what would happen to "an ordinary citizen" who acted the same way. No "special treatment"?

Justine Damond shooting: police officer Mohamed Noor charged with murder

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/20/justine-damond-shooting-police-officer-mohamed-noor-charged

[The victim killed by police had called them to report a possible sexual assault outside her apartment and was approaching their vehicle to tell them about what she had heard.]

“In the short time between when Ms Damond Ruszczyk approached the squad car and the time that Noor fired the fatal shot, there is no evidence that officer Noor encountered a threat, appreciated a threat, investigated a threat or confirmed a threat that justified his decision to use deadly force,” Freeman said in prepared remarks. “Instead, officer Noor recklessly and intentionally fired his handgun from the passenger seat, in disregard for human life.”
The officers did not turn on their body cameras until after the shooting and there was no squad camera video.

This is why you never talk to cops, without a lawyer present.  It is too dangerous these days.

Calling the police for help can easily get you killed.

Calling the police for help can easily get you killed.

AND, once they arrive, they have no legal obligation to do anything at all to protect or help you, no matter what your circumstances.

It seems almost obvious, that these are facts that warrant developing the ability and skills to protect yourself, everywhere, with the best self-defense tools available.

quod erat demonstrandum

Calling the police for help can easily get you killed.

No, no it can't. Honolulu Police get something like 800,000 calls for service a year and the people who get shot are rarely the ones who called the police.