$350G still can't fix stupid (Read 2961 times)

drck1000

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2018, 07:42:50 AM »
This is why I’m against paying for others’ college tuition.

https://www.facebook.com/135665180202998/photos/a.135973656838817/548536645582514/?type=3

Sorry if the link takes you to the main page. The meme I’m talking about starts with “I picked a useless major...”.

eyeeatingfish

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 08:40:11 PM »
Maybe you should get a degree in education and do your research project on that. I guess no one in the history of higher education has ever thought of shortening a 4 year degree program to 3 or less.  If they had thought of it, they would have done it by now, because they have no interest in keeping the schools full of tuition-paying students longer than necessary.

You seem to have all the questions.  Use that degree for something besides resume padding and find some answers.

We have degree standards for a reason in the US.  Employers want a certain level of education from college graduates.  How competitive would you be against 4-year+ degree graduates with your 2 1/2 year discounted no-frills diploma?

I gave you my answer. Eliminate unnecessary general ed classes. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean my answer is going to change.

You want to be more competitive? Why not make a standard education 5 years or 6, make employers even more happy that they are getting smarter students. But if you don't want to fall below that arbitrary 4 year standard why not just eliminate unrelated general ed classes and replace them with more classes related to the persons major?

Besides, when my tax money is going to pay to subsidized educations I would prefer a money saving option.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 08:45:56 PM »
I gave you my answer. Eliminate unnecessary general ed classes. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean my answer is going to change.

You want to be more competitive? Why not make a standard education 5 years or 6, make employers even more happy that they are getting smarter students. But if you don't want to fall below that arbitrary 4 year standard why not just eliminate unrelated general ed classes and replace them with more classes related to the persons major?

Besides, when my tax money is going to pay to subsidized educations I would prefer a money saving option.

Your answer doesn't match the question.

The question (since you ignored/can't understand it) is:  WHY do 4 year degree programs require general college courses?

4 years is not arbitrary.  Like I said, do some research.  You're making statements that are not true.

"Your tax money?"  You need to thank Trump for letting you keep more of your income instead of handing it to the tax man.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

eyeeatingfish

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 09:14:21 PM »
Your answer doesn't match the question.

The question (since you ignored/can't understand it) is:  WHY do 4 year degree programs require general college courses?

4 years is not arbitrary.  Like I said, do some research.  You're making statements that are not true.

"Your tax money?"  You need to thank Trump for letting you keep more of your income instead of handing it to the tax man.

Yes, my tax money, and you completely sidestepped the issue I raised about reducing government spending.

I don't care why colleges want general education courses as part of 4 year degrees that is why I am not addressing it. My suggestion is to eliminate it, I am not trying to find out why it exists.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 01:24:38 AM »
Yes, my tax money, and you completely sidestepped the issue I raised about reducing government spending.

I don't care why colleges want general education courses as part of 4 year degrees that is why I am not addressing it. My suggestion is to eliminate it, I am not trying to find out why it exists.

You want to get rid of something, even though you have no idea why it exists in the first place?

So much for "Mr. Objectivity,"  That's one of the most uninformed opinions I've read lately -- and that's saying a whole helluva lot!!   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

changemyoil66

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2018, 08:44:17 AM »
I gave you my answer. Eliminate unnecessary general ed classes. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean my answer is going to change.



Agreed, there are many unnecessary classes at the college level.  Why the hell do I need to take history, religion, calculus, etc... when I'm going to be a business major?  We are indoctrinated from the start to think we need these classes at the college level.  It's just a way for the colleges to make more money because it keeps you there longer.

Why do I need to take 12 years of history at the high school level.  Nothing changed.  Instead they should teach "life skills".

The 3 classes I did learn from at UH was my US military history, interrogation class and by law class.  Other than that, I remember little to nothing of all the others I was forced to take.

Even my wife remembers more about the classes because she sat with me in some of them. She was my gf at the time.

drck1000

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 08:53:17 AM »
While I believe that a more well rounded college/university level curriculum better prepares individuals for their professions/careers, I do see the point that not everyone I will need it or even looking for that.  So I see the point in streamlining the process. To that end, I believe a big part of that is the accreditation process. It’s established and accepted and I don’t see it changing quickly. The individual schools are just falling in line. I bet they were part of that process for sure, but it’s the system.

Much like sustainability. Someone at a high level got someone in government at a high level to buy in that that’s as a good idea. Got it written into regulations and it because a requirement. Then most attention is on how to comply as to questioning why one needs to comply.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2018, 10:42:38 AM »
Agreed, there are many unnecessary classes at the college level.  Why the hell do I need to take history, religion, calculus, etc... when I'm going to be a business major?  We are indoctrinated from the start to think we need these classes at the college level.  It's just a way for the colleges to make more money because it keeps you there longer.

Why do I need to take 12 years of history at the high school level.  Nothing changed.  Instead they should teach "life skills".

The 3 classes I did learn from at UH was my US military history, interrogation class and by law class.  Other than that, I remember little to nothing of all the others I was forced to take.

Even my wife remembers more about the classes because she sat with me in some of them. She was my gf at the time.

It's very simple.  If you want just classes to get an education, then you can go for 2-year associate's degree, attend a technical school that could lead to an accreditation or license, or attend classes in a regular college or university without seeking an actual bachelor's degree.  The options are out there.

What you and EEF are suggesting is that you should be able to obtain a 4-year degree without completing the required 4 years of classwork.

2 years of the degree are general (liberal arts) courses, and 2 years are in your major/minor (roughly). 

The freshman year of college is basically a continuation of high school, to ensure you have the prerequisite knowledge to grasp the more advanced classes.  That includes English, algebra, and in some disciplines, calculus. Not all high schools prepare their graduates to the same level as others. It seems redundant to have to take algebra again if you took it in high school, but that's what placement tests are for.  If you can't demonstrate algebra skills, then you enroll in the class. Can't get any more objective than that.

Scattered throughout the freshman and sophomore years are classes to expand on your overall education.  We laugh at interviews of college students unable to answer basic questions in important areas, so why are we suggesting students not be required to take political science, history or other classes outside of their majors?  Isn't the goal to educate, not just produce workers?  Hoping these students learn about these things on their own obviously isn't based in reality, given the number of people who believe Socialism works -- just not yet, because .... we'll figure it out.

The requirements are set by national boards that accredit schools and their degree programs.  Universities & colleges develop their programs, and they are approved based on, among other things, number of credit hours required to graduate.

Once you have that degree, you then qualify to enroll in a Master's program.  Most Master's Degrees only take 2 years if you take a full 12 hour load per semester.  So, if you intend to go into law or medical school, you really have no choice -- get the BS/BA first.  Otherwise, pick your own curriculum plan.  Just don't complain that your choices don't include a diploma or the kind of diploma you wanted.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

changemyoil66

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2018, 12:54:24 PM »
What I'm referring to is not a 4 year college degree, but a degree that doesn't waste time/money by taking classes I don't need.  If I'm going to be a doctor, why do I need to take History 101 & 102?  I should be taking more doctor type classes.  Maybe even a class in "how to communicate with patients" or something can be created to replace history and art.

Graduates now fail at interviews because in college,  you're taught to memorize and not learn/think for your self.  My wife got A's in school.  But lacks the ability to figure stuff out if step 1 doesn't work.  Where as myself, I got C's, but can figure stuff out.  So book smart (memorization) vs. street smarts.  And honestly, I was just to lazy to study (memorize) for exams.  So C's get degree's was my mentality.  So what changed in 1 generation of college that students now cannot figure stuff out?

The entire college system needs to be redone, so these national boards mean nothing and are just part of the "system".  But unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I think/feel, this is the system that everyone is part of, even my future kids.  So I will make them go to college.  But the wife will be responsible for schooling, and I'll be responsible for sports.

Yes I could go to a trade school, but for an office job, many require/prefer business type degrees (marketing, accounting, management, etc...) from a university. 

I have a friend who's an electrical engineer and he works on nuclear subs.  I asked him what he does and he said he translates the manual and tells the Navy guys how to install stuff.  So like "put the round peg in the round hole.  Put the square peg in the square hole".  I asked if any thing he learned at EE school helped him.  He said not a damn thing, it's all OTJ training.  Not even the terms in the manuals were taught in EE school.  I thought at least the language that EE's use would have been applied and he said no.  But this is just his job, I'm sure other EE's use what they learned in EE school.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2018, 01:09:32 PM »
What I'm referring to is not a 4 year college degree, but a degree that doesn't waste time/money by taking classes I don't need.  If I'm going to be a doctor, why do I need to take History 101 & 102?  I should be taking more doctor type classes.  Maybe even a class in "how to communicate with patients" or something can be created to replace history and art.

Graduates now fail at interviews because in college,  you're taught to memorize and not learn/think for your self.  My wife got A's in school.  But lacks the ability to figure stuff out if step 1 doesn't work.  Where as myself, I got C's, but can figure stuff out.  So book smart (memorization) vs. street smarts.  And honestly, I was just to lazy to study (memorize) for exams.  So C's get degree's was my mentality.  So what changed in 1 generation of college that students now cannot figure stuff out?

The entire college system needs to be redone, so these national boards mean nothing and are just part of the "system".  But unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I think/feel, this is the system that everyone is part of, even my future kids.  So I will make them go to college.  But the wife will be responsible for schooling, and I'll be responsible for sports.

Yes I could go to a trade school, but for an office job, many require/prefer business type degrees (marketing, accounting, management, etc...) from a university. 

I have a friend who's an electrical engineer and he works on nuclear subs.  I asked him what he does and he said he translates the manual and tells the Navy guys how to install stuff.  So like "put the round peg in the round hole.  Put the square peg in the square hole".  I asked if any thing he learned at EE school helped him.  He said not a damn thing, it's all OTJ training.  Not even the terms in the manuals were taught in EE school.  I thought at least the language that EE's use would have been applied and he said no.  But this is just his job, I'm sure other EE's use what they learned in EE school.

Most large employers will substitute experience for a degree.  In government, they actually have a scale depending on the level of job. 3-5 years experience in the field can make you eligible in lieu of a BA/BS degree.  7-10 years can earn you a Master's Degree's worth of experience.  The key is to get your foot in the door.  So, if all the other applicants have a 4 year degree and no experience, and you have 2 years OJT and an associate's degree, you could be competitive depending on the job and the hiring policies.

Certain contracts (gov't mostly) require proposals from interested companies meet specific guidelines for the people working the contract.  If they specify a degree, the hiring firm has no say in it unless they are willing to negotiate on your behalf with the contracting agency.

It gets complicated in today's market.  But it used to come down to this: if you're competing for the same job others want, why would you not check all the boxes that they can?  Your resume and college degree will get you the interview.  The interview is what gets you the job.

Why do doctors need history classes?  Are you implying only history teachers and historical researchers need history classes?
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

changemyoil66

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2018, 01:34:30 PM »


Why do doctors need history classes?  Are you implying only history teachers and historical researchers need history classes?

Yes, because history is taught in grades K-12 already.  So use the slot to either graduate faster (remove it) or fill it with something toward their major.  That's my whole though on the educational system. 

My major was speech, below are the classes that I had to take that have no affect on my major or life:

1) History (2 semesters)
2) Japanese (4 semesters)
3) Religion (2 semesters)
4) Geography (1 semester)
5) Oceanography (1 semester, replaced biology credit)
6) Food Science Health Nutrition (1 semester, replaced chemistry)
7) Calculus (2 semesters)

That's all I can remember so if I didn't have to take any of the above, I could have graduated 1.5 years earlier and saved money.  That's 1.5 years of OTJ that I could have gotten.

My original major was going to be business marketing, but I couldn't get into the school of business because my GPA was to low for my undergrad classes.  But I was allowed to take 5 business classes in the school of business and got all A's.  So even though I excelled in the business specific classes, I was denied entry due to having low undergrad GPA (C).  That's why I switched to speech.  I'm luck though that my major had nothing to do with my career.  Went into the family industry.  So I could have majored in art and still been doing what I do now.

That's good that fed jobs allow XP to be counted.  But many corporate jobs, degree's out weight XP, especially the bigger companies.  I have 1 friend who has an accounting degree and the other who worked as a bookkeeper without a degree for many years. The one with no XP got the interview at a big accounting firm here.  The bookkeeper didn't even get an interview.  I know they both applied for the same company, but IDK what job they applied for and when (probably wasn't the same time).

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2018, 03:06:42 PM »
Yes, because history is taught in grades K-12 already.  So use the slot to either graduate faster (remove it) or fill it with something toward their major.  That's my whole though on the educational system. 

My major was speech, below are the classes that I had to take that have no affect on my major or life:

1) History (2 semesters)
2) Japanese (4 semesters)
3) Religion (2 semesters)
4) Geography (1 semester)
5) Oceanography (1 semester, replaced biology credit)
6) Food Science Health Nutrition (1 semester, replaced chemistry)
7) Calculus (2 semesters)

That's all I can remember so if I didn't have to take any of the above, I could have graduated 1.5 years earlier and saved money.  That's 1.5 years of OTJ that I could have gotten.

My original major was going to be business marketing, but I couldn't get into the school of business because my GPA was to low for my undergrad classes.  But I was allowed to take 5 business classes in the school of business and got all A's.  So even though I excelled in the business specific classes, I was denied entry due to having low undergrad GPA (C).  That's why I switched to speech.  I'm luck though that my major had nothing to do with my career.  Went into the family industry.  So I could have majored in art and still been doing what I do now.

That's good that fed jobs allow XP to be counted.  But many corporate jobs, degree's out weight XP, especially the bigger companies.  I have 1 friend who has an accounting degree and the other who worked as a bookkeeper without a degree for many years. The one with no XP got the interview at a big accounting firm here.  The bookkeeper didn't even get an interview.  I know they both applied for the same company, but IDK what job they applied for and when (probably wasn't the same time).

Everyone is the accumulation of his/her decisions.  You're where you are because YOU decided.  No one held a gun to your head or threatened your existence if you didn't attend college, right?

With the cost of tuition today, I'd almost say it's better to enter the job force in the area you like and get 4 years OJT.  You'll be well on your way to promotion, have had 4 years of earning a living to maybe save for education, and not have a masive student loan debt weighing you down for 20-30 years.  For some professions, that's not  an option, but for many, it is. 

And never dismiss  the military as an avenue for education and OJT.  I earned a 4-year ROTC scholarship for my undergrad degree, and paid it back with service (4 yrs active & 2 yrs reserve was required).  I got out after 9 years and became a contractor.  I did the undergrad requirements for an MBA while the Air Force helped pay, but after separating, moving and spending too much time on travel, school had to wait. 

I've never felt lacking a master's degree held me back.  My reputation and experience was my ticket anywhere I wanted to go.

I've since paid back in multiples by sending 2 girls to college at HPU.

If I'd not gotten the scholarship, which actually almost happened due to a failed physical, I would have initially joined the Air Force as enlisted.  But, after making through one semester on financial aid and part time employment, I decided to keep going to graduation.  My waiver came through 2 days before the end of the first semester, so it all worked out, and I was a commissioned officer 3 1/2 years later.

Everybody has a story.  My career and degree had to match, since I was under contract with the Air Force.  Many change majors multiple times because they have no plan for themselves.  Others pick something fun only to learn after graduation it doesn't pay the rent.  Not enough can be said for planning, seeking advice and making a mature, objective decision about school.  It's not for everyone.  Just ask Mike Rowe.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

drck1000

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2018, 03:25:37 PM »
Actually has quite a bit of truth here.

eyeeatingfish

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2018, 09:02:20 PM »
You want to get rid of something, even though you have no idea why it exists in the first place?

So much for "Mr. Objectivity,"  That's one of the most uninformed opinions I've read lately -- and that's saying a whole helluva lot!!   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

You are trying to change the issue. The origins are not relevant to my point. I am saying that it is not necessary now! Focus on the point instead of trying to troll something else.

How about this, if you want to keep it around then you prove why it is necessary.

eyeeatingfish

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2018, 09:04:31 PM »
Agreed, there are many unnecessary classes at the college level.  Why the hell do I need to take history, religion, calculus, etc... when I'm going to be a business major?  We are indoctrinated from the start to think we need these classes at the college level.  It's just a way for the colleges to make more money because it keeps you there longer.

Why do I need to take 12 years of history at the high school level.  Nothing changed.  Instead they should teach "life skills".

The 3 classes I did learn from at UH was my US military history, interrogation class and by law class.  Other than that, I remember little to nothing of all the others I was forced to take.

Even my wife remembers more about the classes because she sat with me in some of them. She was my gf at the time.

Exactly. Plus they throw in all this general ed stuff  that might be great if you go on Jeopardy but how many college students know how to change their car oil or even a tire? If the goal is to be well rounded then there is a whole lot college is missing!

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2018, 12:10:20 AM »
You are trying to change the issue. The origins are not relevant to my point. I am saying that it is not necessary now! Focus on the point instead of trying to troll something else.

How about this, if you want to keep it around then you prove why it is necessary.

You made the claim the courses are not necessary.  Where are your supporting Google links?

You made the claim, it's on you to back them up. That's according to your rules.    :popcorn:
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2018, 12:13:06 AM »
Exactly. Plus they throw in all this general ed stuff  that might be great if you go on Jeopardy but how many college students know how to change their car oil or even a tire? If the goal is to be well rounded then there is a whole lot college is missing!

LOL!!!  Are you serious?

The whole reason for going to college is to make enough so you don't have to change your own oil or flat tire!

If you want to learn auto mechanics, go down the street to the automotive trade school.  15 months, and you'll have your apprentice certificate, ready to start at Lex Brodies.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

changemyoil66

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2018, 09:21:59 AM »
You made the claim the courses are not necessary.  Where are your supporting Google links?

You made the claim, it's on you to back them up. That's according to your rules.    :popcorn:

I don't think there is any research done that the undergrad stuff is or is not a waste of time (might be buried if it turns out it is).  Just thinking about it logically.  If someone is going to school to be a doctor, why is History needed?  Maybe a course in medical history, but learning about Ghangis Khan and such has no bearing on the persons major. 

I think eye's whole point is eliminate the unnecessary classes with a class geared toward your major or eliminate all together to graduate faster.  So if the system still wants that 4 year title, then replace the classes with something useful.

And yes, no one forced me to go to UH, but my parents would have been disappointed if I didn't go.  So was it really an option not to go?  I'm the first in my family to graduate from college (includes uncles, cousins, and aunties).  My dad even highly suggested that I don't be a bartender or waiter because I will love having buku cash in my pocket at all times and eventually drop out.  Which is what he did in the 80's.  I really wanted to go into the service industry because I saw my other friends with a wad.

I'm not trying to be argumentative either.  So I apologize if anything I typed is offensive. :shaka:

changemyoil66

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2018, 09:23:40 AM »
LOL!!!  Are you serious?

The whole reason for going to college is to make enough so you don't have to change your own oil or flat tire!

If you want to learn auto mechanics, go down the street to the automotive trade school.  15 months, and you'll have your apprentice certificate, ready to start at Lex Brodies.

They should teach "life skills" at the high school level.  Tire change, taxes, resume, interviews, cooking, etc...1 could argue that it's the parents job to teach these, but yet many don't.  And parents could also teach history if they wanted to.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: $350G still can't fix stupid
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2018, 10:13:15 AM »
They should teach "life skills" at the high school level.  Tire change, taxes, resume, interviews, cooking, etc...1 could argue that it's the parents job to teach these, but yet many don't.  And parents could also teach history if they wanted to.

My point is, EEF wants to pretend if a college wants to create "well rounded" students, they need to teach students everything which should have been learned somewhere/sometime else in life.  Otherwise, the definition of "well rounded" doesn't meet his personal meaning.

It's a fallacy: Strawman.  He's full of those.

It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.