What's your opinion on CON AM (Read 16836 times)

dirtylickins

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What's your opinion on CON AM
« on: October 15, 2018, 07:32:41 AM »
Curious to see what's your understanding of the CON AM? IS IT GOOD OR A SHIT DEAL

macsak

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2018, 07:36:23 AM »
Curious to see what's your understanding of the CON AM? IS IT GOOD OR A SHIT DEAL

#focus
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=32423.0

changemyoil66

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2018, 08:45:27 AM »
#focus
https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=32423.0

He's asking about Con Am, not Con Con

Focus.

Con Am is about taxing "investment" properties and they say the money is going toward the schools, but:

1) Why put it into the state constitution, and not make it a bill?  Because once it's in the constitution, it's harder to remove or will take years to challenge.  In the mean time, they can collect on everyone.  Or to pass laws that define things, takes time.
2) Because it's in the constitution, it's vague.  This has many realtors worried.  "Investment" property is not defied.  A condo that is owner occupied, the unit itself may not be an investment.  But is the building classified "commercial/investment"?  So if the AOAO gets taxed, then maintenance fees go up.
3) DOE says the money will go toward schools, but nothing in writing, see point #1.

So vote No on ConAm.  And yes on ConCon.

macsak

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 08:52:44 AM »
He's asking about Con Am, not Con Con

Focus.

Con Am is about taxing "investment" properties and they say the money is going toward the schools, but:

1) Why put it into the state constitution, and not make it a bill?  Because once it's in the constitution, it's harder to remove or will take years to challenge.  In the mean time, they can collect on everyone.  Or to pass laws that define things, takes time.
2) Because it's in the constitution, it's vague.  This has many realtors worried.  "Investment" property is not defied.  A condo that is owner occupied, the unit itself may not be an investment.  But is the building classified "commercial/investment"?  So if the AOAO gets taxed, then maintenance fees go up.
3) DOE says the money will go toward schools, but nothing in writing, see point #1.

So vote No on ConAm.  And yes on ConCon.

#nofocus

sorry

heads

Rocky

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 09:03:22 AM »
    Language too vague.

    If you buy a second home and rent, is it an investment property ?
If you move and keep your home and rent it, is it an investment property ?
If you sell your home and make a profit, is it an investment property ?
If you are left/willed a home, is it considered an investment property ?
   There is currently no REAL definition of an investment property ? 

Besides, do you really believe the money is going toward the schools ?
It is if you consider Rail a "learning experience".
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

oldfart

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2018, 09:15:32 AM »
I'm not really informed on this kind of stuff.
But there is a new TV spot opposing the amendment, featuring 4 former governors of HI.
Ariyoshi, Waihee, Abercrombie and Cayetano.
 
The intent is to fund schools, but Ariyoshi points out that there is no guarantee that the monies collected would go directly to schools.

This is similar to the proposal to charge a range fee at KHSC. I would gladly pay a few bucks per visit to support the range maintenance.
But there is no guarantee that the fees would be directed to the range.
It would just end up in the big bucket...probably to pay for the rail or to buy a big band-aid to put on the homeless problem.
What, Me Worry?

changemyoil66

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2018, 09:38:06 AM »
    Language too vague.

    If you buy a second home and rent, is it an investment property ?
If you move and keep your home and rent it, is it an investment property ?
If you sell your home and make a profit, is it an investment property ?
If you are left/willed a home, is it considered an investment property ?
   There is currently no REAL definition of an investment property ? 

Besides, do you really believe the money is going toward the schools ?
It is if you consider Rail a "learning experience".

^^^Exactly, this is what the awoke people are asking for and many teachers do not understand.  They're just supporting the amendment because it has a nice title to it "for the schools".

Per common sense, if you're renting the property, it should be considered "investment".  But we've all seen how "common sense gun laws" work so can we expect any different if ConAm were to pass.  And it would cost money to fight in court and so on, similar to our gun rights (young vs. Hawaii)

changemyoil66

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2018, 09:39:01 AM »
I'm not really informed on this kind of stuff.
But there is a new TV spot opposing the amendment, featuring 4 former governors of HI.
Ariyoshi, Waihee, Abercrombie and Cayetano.
 
The intent is to fund schools, but Ariyoshi points out that there is no guarantee that the monies collected would go directly to schools.

This is similar to the proposal to charge a range fee at KHSC. I would gladly pay a few bucks per visit to support the range maintenance.
But there is no guarantee that the fees would be directed to the range.
It would just end up in the big bucket...probably to pay for the rail or to buy a big band-aid to put on the homeless problem.

Correct, no guarantee where in the "education system" money will go.  And many who vote at the booth, probably wont research on the spot what ConAm is and it's pros and cons.

London808

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 12:38:36 PM »
Property taxes are unconstitutional and are slavery.

The end
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

Flapp_Jackson

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 01:02:51 PM »
By targeting "commercial properties", it pretends to only affect investors, mainly from the mainland, Japan and China, so it won't affect locals.

What the average person doesn't ever seem to get is, no matter which "greedy business" they target to get this passed, the cost will always flow down to the consumer -- locals.

Same is true for $15/hour minimum wage, higher taxes on "the wealthy", and tariffs collected by other countries.  Businesses pass along increases in taxes to the people who generate revenue. They don't take it out of their profits.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 01:18:04 PM »
See how the mayors and govs went on TV to not support ConAm.  Can we do the same for CCW/Open?  Didn't Cayetano get issued a CCW?

dirtylickins

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Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 03:36:12 PM »
He's asking about Con Am, not Con Con

Focus.


yeah FOCUS basically and traverse

Good points of views fellas.

Kuleana

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 09:29:19 PM »
By targeting "commercial properties", it pretends to only affect investors, mainly from the mainland, Japan and China, so it won't affect locals.

What the average person doesn't ever seem to get is, no matter which "greedy business" they target to get this passed, the cost will always flow down to the consumer -- locals.

Same is true for $15/hour minimum wage, higher taxes on "the wealthy", and tariffs collected by other countries.  Businesses pass along increases in taxes to the people who generate revenue. They don't take it out of their profits.

Not entirely true.

Businesses will definitely protect their profits in the passage of any type of government sponsored tax or tariffs, but only increase prices that their respective market can bear.  For example, in the short-run, a $2,000 monthly rental unit may increase to $2,100 a month, which would result in not much renters leaving the market and, thus, absorbing the tax or tariff increase.  However, unless many renters are able to earn more money or curb their discretionary expenditures, a number or renters will eventually leave the rental market completely, forcing landlords to eventually lower their rental prices and profit margins back into a new market equilibrium in the long-run.


Kuleana

new guy

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 10:26:57 PM »
Amazingly (or perhaps not so), Abercrombie, Waihee, Cayetano, and Ariyoshi, all did the television spot in opposition to the proposed measure.

I'm personally voting, "FUCK NO."
Your mindset is your primary weapon. - Jeff Cooper

dirtylickins

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Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2018, 10:16:31 PM »
Amazingly (or perhaps not so), Abercrombie, Waihee, Cayetano, and Ariyoshi, all did the television spot in opposition to the proposed measure.

I'm personally voting, "FUCK NO."
is that a choice on the ballot? If so I'm checking that one too!

2ahavvaii

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2018, 08:35:05 AM »
No.  It is a horrible idea

.  Understand this, once you give the government the right to tax in a certain way, it opens the doors to expanding the tax.  The original social security tax was 1%.  Now it is 6.2 times higher.  The state may start taxing investment properties over $1 mil at a lower rate, but who's to say they won't adjust the cap, rates, and who is covered under the tax?  Once you give them the right to tax, they are free to manipulate the tax as they see fit.

property taxes is the primary means of revenue generation for the counties.  If the state starts taxing property, it limits the county ability to tax effectively.  Perhaps if there's a budget crunch, the counties would have considered increasing taxes on investment properties to avoid impacting "normal people".  But now they cannot, because the state is already taxing.  So then the counties are forced to tax regular residential properties.

Getting the (largely) ignorant public to vote for the tax for a "good cause" is a devious way of being able to increase taxes without the politicians being the bad guys by enacting the taxes themselves. 

changemyoil66

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2018, 09:25:23 AM »


. 

Getting the (largely) ignorant public to vote for the tax for a "good cause" is a devious way of being able to increase taxes without the politicians being the bad guys by enacting the taxes themselves.

^^^This, people who don't research will hear "for education" and automatically vote yes because it's for the kids.  What worries me is the amount of support that teachers are giving.  And these are the ones that are guiding our future. But they can't even read what the amednment is or think outside the box of how it can affect everyone.

2ahavvaii

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2018, 09:45:24 AM »
^^^This, people who don't research will hear "for education" and automatically vote yes because it's for the kids.  What worries me is the amount of support that teachers are giving.  And these are the ones that are guiding our future. But they can't even read what the amednment is or think outside the box of how it can affect everyone.

Basically what will happen is that a special fund is setup and taxes will go into the fund.  For example $10 mil per year, which is on top of the $100 mil per year they normally fund education with.  When the state does the budget, and they're facing shortfalls in other areas (which is the underlying reason for the new tax), they will chop $10 mil from the $100 mil funding source to spend elsewhere, leaving education with roughly the same place it was without the tax.  They could raid the special fund instead, but that is likely to get more attention, so easier to raid the normal funding source.  The state does stuff like this all the time.

zippz

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2018, 10:43:21 AM »
For the question on why an amendment and not a law, the constitution only allows counties to tax property so any law passed would be unconstitutional.

What will happen if passed is the state will lower the amount given to education and use the saved money for their own projects.  Teachers and administrative pay may go up with no improvement for the students.  So overall more taxes, government bloat, and students not any better.

The teachers union represents the teachers interests, not the students.  Sometimes they hurt the students over the teachers.  To improve education fire bad teachers, run schools more efficient, revise special ed, create school vouchers, and get parents more involved.

2ahavvaii

Re: What's your opinion on CON AM
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2018, 11:47:38 AM »
^

On that note, old article, but applicable.  And you're right.  The DOE (not including the university of hawaii) spends 2 BILLION dollars a year. 

Did UH enrollment increase by 33% in 7 years?  If the answer is no, then why is the amount of administrators and back-end support staff skyrocketing?   "Those are questions that have come up in Hawaii, too, for which the federal data show that the number of central-system office staff rose 33 percent between 2007 and 2014."

http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-administrative-bloat-in-us-public-schools/
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/10/ballooning-bureaucracies-shrinking-checkbooks/503066/

-------------------------------------------

I hate to be an ass, but if parents and lawmakers are so intent on creating a special tax for public school education, the additional cost should be picked up by parents of children in the K-12 system.  Creation of a special tax on a group of people that see zero benefit from having your child educated is pretty unfair.  Additionally, all taxpaying residents already pay for the children's education, which they see no direct benefit unless they have children in the system.  Therefore, if the intent of the tax is to raise the quality of education above that minimum level, the additional cost should be borne by the parents, as they see the direct benefit of the tax.  If the parents come back and say it's not worth it to pay a supplemental amount for the children's education, then WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE TAX???

Such a tax could be easily administered, as hawaii tax form already has fields for you to enter your dependent information in.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:57:16 AM by 2ahavvaii »