Aside from general accuracy in terms of  target practice, how many of you train for defensive shooting?  And if you do train for defensive shooting, at what distances do you train at to maximize your skill in terms of speed and accuracy?  I have been told that the average handgun confrontation will occur at distances no more than 10 yards, and taking into consideration the interior layout of my home, this is the extent of the conditions for what I train.  I am confident, with an extent of stress factors given, that i can perform to this level.  However, the question was asked, how well can you perform at 25 yrds. 

In Magpul's video, they stress to train to the point in which you fail.  Hence the phrase "beginners train till the get it right, professionals train till they get it wrong."  I am not military or law enforcement, but it did make me nervous to think how much my defensive shooting ability would diminish outside of 15 yrds.  What do you guys train at?  Given a scenario not applicable to Hawaii, but say you were in the middle of a mall shooting, maniac is 25 yrds away, with people running around behind him/her, with an elevated heart rate and stress level, are you up to the task to safely take the shot without hurting innocents?  Makes me rethink my drills at the next trip to the range.

Honestly, in your mall scenario at 25 yards I wouldn't take the shot.  Too many things can happen within that 25 yard distance that the opportunity to kill the shooter would not be worth the potential risk to the other people.  If it were within 15 yards, perhaps. 

Most of my pistol shooting is done at the 25yd line. I train on the basic fundamentals of grip, sight picture, and trigger control. Most of my defensive training is done off the firing line. The ability to to assess a situation and identify bad situations where deadly force is needed just as much as actual trigger time. Bad things can happen anytime and anywhere. There are usually warning signs that precede them. Mall shootings, school shootings, workplace shootings, carjackings, ect, have a common denominator: a bad guy with a gun. The tough part is figuring out who they are and where they will be. Scenario based training has merit in defensive shooting, but there are too many variables in real life. If I had to go to someplace where I expected trouble, I'd take my rifle.

You all have good points.
I'd like to echo Teichi. Don't bring a knife to a pistol fight, don't take a pistol to a rifle fight (if you are expecting trouble).

Thanks for the input gentlemen.  I have decided to incorporate25 yard drills in my trips to the range to expand my ability.  After all,  you don't always get to choose your moments, sometimes they choose you.

In regards to the subject of bringing a rifle, may I pose this question.  Your in a rifle fight, your gun goes dry, at what distance do you transition to your secondary weapon instead of performing a speed reload?  This too may be a 25 yrd question.  Do you take the time to perform the speed reload on your primary because you are more proficient in that platform?  Or for sake of speed, do you transition to your secondary to keep in the fight, despite the fact that you may not be as confident at distance with your pistol?  I understand this too is situational as mentioned, so just assume minimal cover is available in this scenario.

If I had to go to someplace where I expected trouble, I'd take my rifle.

I'm gonna walk a different path here.  If I honestly thought to myself "If I'm going there, I'd better take a rifle with me," then I would not go. 

Not saying I wouldn't rather have a rifle in s gun fight.  Just saying that the first, most successful strategy to surviving a gun fight is to not be in a gun fight.  If I have a reasonable expectation that going somewhere will involve a gun fight happening, I ain't gonna go!

Well of course you don't go to a gun fight if you don't have to.

Where do you guys practice? I know you can't do this kind of training on the bullseye side at Koko Head.

I'm gonna walk a different path here.  If I honestly thought to myself "If I'm going there, I'd better take a rifle with me," then I would not go. 

Not saying I wouldn't rather have a rifle in s gun fight.  Just saying that the first, most successful strategy to surviving a gun fight is to not be in a gun fight.  If I have a reasonable expectation that going somewhere will involve a gun fight happening, I ain't gonna go!
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The big difference is I wear a uniform and if I say that I'm not going, I'm breaking the law. What's worse is I know I'm the most experienced shooter out of my bunch. I'm a guy that leads US Warriors to bad places that are known to have an occassion gun fight. It's a all volunteer fighting force (for now). I'm not going to judge you.

The again, I wouldn't hang out on Makaha beach at 2am drinking beer.

I practice at Waikiki Gun Shop occasionally, practice admin duties such as reloading and dry firing at home, and get some forms of practice while participating in IPSC events.  IPSC events are great for live fire practice and other things such as reloading, shooting for speed and accuracy, etc., and add a certain amount of stress to the equation.  However, tactics for scoring in a stage are not always the best course of action for defensive shooting.  Because of this, you must be able to differentiate between the two.

I train at Koko Head  on Mondays and Tuesdays with HPD personnel in full combat kit when I can schedule it: Rifle and pistol rig with 8 magazines of both. I practice transition between longgun and handgun. Tactical reload, speed reload, multiple target engagement, failure drills. I do a lot of dry training at home or at work. I also practice concealed carry techniques. I have 7 different holsters depending on the handgun and wardrobe.

The best advise for defensive handgun training is practice the fundamentals: grip, sight picture, and trigger control. Handgun is the toughest to shoot accurately.

Threat assessment, taking cover, target IDis the same whether you are shooting a a grenade launcher or throwing rocks.

The big difference is I wear a uniform and if I say that I'm not going, I'm breaking the law. What's worse is I know I'm the most experienced shooter out of my bunch. I'm a guy that leads US Warriors to bad places that are known to have an occassion gun fight. It's a all volunteer fighting force (for now). I'm not going to judge you.

And that is a big difference. I would hazzard a guess that most of us are not under some obligation to engage a threat, or as you are, expected to go looking for threats to engage. I am assuming you are military and not law enforcement, otherwise I'd have to disagree about the "breaking the law" statement.

I train at Koko Head  on Mondays and Tuesdays with HPD personnel in full combat kit when I can schedule it: Rifle and pistol rig with 8 magazines of both. I practice transition between longgun and handgun. Tactical reload, speed reload, multiple target engagement, failure drills. I do a lot of dry training at home or at work. I also practice concealed carry techniques. I have 7 different holsters depending on the handgun and wardrobe

Then you are a lucky guy...most of us do not get the opportunity to practice in that manner. It has always been one of my pet peevs at Kokohead that minimum shooting distance for the pistol range is 25 yards. If the intent of a State run shooting complex is to promote the safe use of firearms, especially hand guns for defensive purposes, the prohibition on shooting at more real-life distances is antiethical to the that stated intent. From a conversation yesterday, I was told that the range master has the discretion, if they are asked, to allow shooting at closer distances, but the terminal impact of the round must still be on the berm behind the target stands at 25 yards. Means a tall target is necessary....so next time you're out there, ask if you can shoot at a closer distance and see what they say. I'm hoping it's a positive response........not holding my breath, but still hoping...

From a conversation yesterday, I was told that the range master has the discretion, if they are asked, to allow shooting at closer distances, but the terminal impact of the round must still be on the berm behind the target stands at 25 yards. Means a tall target is necessary....so next time you're out there, ask if you can shoot at a closer distance and see what they say. I'm hoping it's a positive response........not holding my breath, but still hoping...

I guess this would also mean making it a free standing target as there aren't any target stand holes to put it into. Maybe bucket filled with cement with a pipe embedded in the middle, like the ones used to hold up tents.

My guess is that they wouldn't okay it but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'll do so next time I'm there.

I think the argument of a rifle preference over a pistol is an unlikely scenario to begin with.  Short of seeing a gunfight errupt either on your way to or from the rifle range, the majority of non-military or non-law enforcement will probably never need the use of their rifles in a self-defense situation outside of the home.  Exceptions of course would be the aftermath of an extreme natural disaster, or the zombie apocalypse.  If, when we get concealed carry passed in Hawaii chances are any self-defense situation outside of the home will involve a handgun and not a rifle. 

To this end, familiarity and practice with your handgun of choice would be key.  Practice until you can get a  speedy unholstering and quick target acquisition in one natural fluid motion.   

But more inportant than the training, is the ability to recognize a bad situation unfolding.  As Teichi said, there are always signs.  Being aware of the people around you and being able to spot unusual behavior is the best way to be prepared.  I've been able to spot fights minutes before they erupt just by being observant. 

Then you are a lucky guy...most of us do not get the opportunity to practice in that manner. It has always been one of my pet peevs at Kokohead that minimum shooting distance for the pistol range is 25 yards. If the intent of a State run shooting complex is to promote the safe use of firearms, especially hand guns for defensive purposes, the prohibition on shooting at more real-life distances is antiethical to the that stated intent. From a conversation yesterday, I was told that the range master has the discretion, if they are asked, to allow shooting at closer distances, but the terminal impact of the round must still be on the berm behind the target stands at 25 yards. Means a tall target is necessary....so next time you're out there, ask if you can shoot at a closer distance and see what they say. I'm hoping it's a positive response........not holding my breath, but still hoping...
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You make an excellent point.  It would be fantastic if we could begin shooting at 10-15yds at the pistol bullseye range.  I did not know that it was up to the range master, although I only started going to Koko Head this year so I am pretty new.  I may begin inquiring about this as well, I'd be willing to construct a free standing target if I knew they would allow it.

I'd be willing to construct a free standing target if I knew they would allow it.

At the silhouette range, they regularly allow people to place targets just on the far edge of "the ditch."  Even targets on the ground, such as golf balls, are often allowed.  However, don't go thinking that you can do 'real' defensive training.  There are still prohibitions against rapid fire and against drawing from a holster (or concealed.)

Let's put things into perspective.  I'm too old to run n gun.  My health and medical problems dictate otherwise.

Getting into a gun fight at the mall is Not in our(me n wife) plans.   Being an invisible target is what we
would be.  NOT our job to engage.  Our responsibility is to protect each other.  If you happan to be close by, then you're in luck and may fall our umbrella.  Otherwise, it is out with the camera(if I have it) and being the best photographer I can be. 

Sorry folks, let's be realistic.  Putting little bits of lead/copper downrange at high speed is a Liability.  Even if you manage to hit the bad guy.  Can you be sure that your bullet wil Not penetrate and hit a person nearby behind?  Remember, You are Responsible for every round you shoot. 

Having said that,  If you get involved in a shooting, can you Afford the legal bills that come after?  I've been told, just to start, minimum is $10,000.  Your Marriage may go down the tubes, you may loose your home, your family may fall apart.  All of this has happened to shooters.

True story, an attorney was asked what would it cost the defendent to get off.  The Attorney replied,
"Everything you've got"  He got the guy off clean.  Asked later was it worth it?  YES

You have to remember that this is Hawaii.  Law enforcement et al is Not pro 2A.

Just something to think about.

A good and interesting topic you have brought up here.

A mall scenario can happen, as well as the nutjob with the rifle that shows up shooting at a crowd. All of these can, have, and will happen again. All of these are great for you to practice at the 25yd shooting range. I practice at the 25 yd range to keep my slow, accurate shooting up to par. I do not like Koko for the fact that I cannot put a target close in and practice defense draws , movement, and target indexing. I have been unable practice in this manner using live fire since I have been here. Given I cannot carry here (yet), I practice at home using dry firing.

The real question is what happens when the distance is in feet (most likely to occur), not to mention its dark, you are entering/leaving your vehicle and have your family/groceries/stuff, etc with you.  What then? 25yds and slow shooting won't cut it. A lot of individuals that are involved in self defense shootings end up emptying thier weapons and don't realize it till its all over. I know someone (family member) who was involved in an up close (approximately 7-10 feet) self defense shooting involving two perpetrators and when asked how many shots were fired, he thought it was only 3 or 4, the correct answer was 16 rounds in .40 &W.  Witness thought they heard automatic gunfire.

What if the weapon is not a firearm?
The widely accepted range that deadly force is accepted against edged or weilded weapons is 21 feet (yep, feet) or 7 yards.  This is the distance an attacker can cover before the "average" individual can unholster, aquire, and fire two rounds before the attacker is on them. This doesn't really take into account other factors (family, stress factors, visual obscurity).  This is where quick draw, center mass shooting, using indexing vice sighting down and taking aim will pay off. (You also have to make very good (and quick) decisions as to what is coming at you and what the jury will think).

Speaking to Old Guys post. If you can evac you and your family to safety, do it.  If you are not involved, you won't get shot.  You can be the hero and go after the guy, but odds play in and you may get the perp, or you may not. You may get the perp and an innocent bystander. $10,000 won't even cover the retainer of a good lawyer, it may cover your funeral or the funeral of a loved one because you decided to shoot back vice back out.

This is all situation dependent and as someone has already covered this area,  the are primers to an argument or fight before it happens, you just have to watch for them. Most people walk through this life blind to what is going on around them.  Do you ever go to the mall/department stores and survey the exits, cover, and what you would do if the SHTF?

Always remember in any defensive shooting not to talk to anyone until you have talked with a lawyer. You do NOT have to say a word.  If you must say something, say "I was in fear for my life, I thought he/she was going to kill me, I cannot talk about what happened right now."  Or something to that accord....anything you say can and will be used against you.

My $.02 anyway....

Id love to hear some other ideas from others!     

Chuck

Do you ever go to the mall/department stores and survey the exits, cover, and what you would do if the SHTF?

I constantly evaluate my surroundings in terms of zombie defense.  I use it as a humorous way to draw my wife into the concept.  It's a little off point, since usually with zombies you think more of barricading, but the idea of evade and escape certainly is applicable. 

At work, I keep a baseball bat within arms reach of my desk.  I have a steel pipe in my storage room and keep a metal yardstick in my classroom.  None of these are ideal, but in my typical workday, I make sure that the areas where I spend time each have SOMEthing I can use to go down swinging!

Based on the original post, I feel like I have lost a lot of my defensive shooting skills since being stationed in this beautiful place.  Not many places to practice, but I really do not feel the need to carry here at the moment.  I think common sense and being aware of your surrounds is a must.  Liability is also an issue here since it's pretty crowded.  With out practice can anyone be sure of calling their shots.  I know my limitations and if ran around a shot up a real life engagement just like the pistol matches at Kokohead, I'd be in trouble.  In my opinion, practicing for a defensive pistol craft is useless here at the moment as well. 

I am not law enforcement, but I have carried in AZ and TX for over 8 years. Old Guy has a point when it comes to after the shooting.  Are you willing to loose it all.  This is a tired debate and only the individual can answer it for them selves.  I recall a time when I drew down on some suspected illegals while hiking in Sierra Vista.  I was a bit stupid because they could have been pack mules for drugs and I was excited about carrying a pistol , but who knew.  Oh, and they were also carrying side arms as well, but we got them on the draw.  Instead of discharging  we recognized each others presence and continued to move in the opposite direction.  Man, what a rush but was I justified in drawing down?  I do not know but I am just glad to be here to tell the tale. 

There really is no place to practice on this island unless you got some cash or private land in my opinion .  Sorry to be a Debbie Downer, but thats my two cents.