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Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!] (Read 6728 times)

punaperson

Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« on: November 22, 2018, 07:58:13 AM »
I guess the facts are simply too overwhelmingly obvious for this cop to continue to maintain his "no one but cops should be armed" blind allegiance to stupidity. How many people have to die in "gun free zones" (aka "free fire zones") for people to understand that the only effective resistance to an armed attack is armed resistance? It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but it is very dangerous in that it violates a cardinal principle (and total lie) of the civilian disarmament advocates: "more guns means more crime (aka "gun violence")". By the way, it wouldn't have to be just "teachers", it would include any person employed at the school in any capacity (administrative, custodial, secretarial, etc.). The first person to confront the murderer at Sandy Hook Elementary School, long before he got to any classroom, was an administrator, who, unarmed, became the first murdered victim rather than having had a chance to actually stop an armed person intent on evil. Had she or some other staff been armed, there would at least have been the possibility, no guarantee of course, of a completely different outcome. Also, there would be the potential "deterrent effect" of criminals making different choices about targets knowing that there was armed staff who could stop their planned mayhem.

Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed to Stop Attacks

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/21/sheriff-investigating-parkland-shooting-teachers-must-be-armed-to-stop-attacks/

Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri is leading an investigation into the February 14, 2018, Parkland high school shooting and insists teachers must be armed to stop attacks.
This is a change in his position as he long contended that only law enforcement should be armed in schools.

The Associated Press reports that Gualtieri is heading up the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Commission and he indicates that things he has learned in the investigation have caused him to change his position in favor of arming teachers.

He notes that the gunman who killed 17 on February 14 was able to stop shooting and reload five times during his attack. The times he stopped provided a window of time for an armed teacher to take him out, but teachers were not allowed to carry guns. Gualtieri says that scenario “gnaws” at him.

He noted, “People need to keep an open mind to it as the reality is that if someone else in that school had a gun it could have saved kids’ lives.”
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rklapp

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 10:38:08 AM »
If I were a teacher, I would advocate for secured pistol vaults in each classroom. However, my sister is a teacher and can't imagine her ever using it, no matter what. Doesn't matter though, if she doesn't want to use it then she can leave it in the vault.
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Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

drck1000

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 11:09:19 AM »
I'm all for armed staff at schools, as well as other softer targets, such as churches.  At minimum, leave it up to the facility or people who work there to decide for themselves.

I envision it will take a while for things to change, but I believe that it would help to at least replace the gun free zones with facilities where armed staff for security is known (or at least offered).  I believe that just the potential for armed staff at a facility will help as a deterrence and these potential shooters will look elsewhere.  Sort of how shops have surveillance domes, but come to find out many don't have functioning cameras or even means to record the video.  I mean yeah, surely armed staff will not only deter but can also actively defend, but I think the potential for armed staff can help.  At least such that a potential shooter wouldn't see that particular facility as an easy target.  Sure, you're still going to have those shooters where they target specific folks.  What I don't get is folks who say stuff like "I don't want armed staff at my son/daughter's school, it makes them feel unsafe", but then call for "something to be done to make my children safer at school". 
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kala201

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 06:32:17 PM »
I'm all for allowing teachers to be armed.  The reality of it is rather disturbing though when it comes to Hawaii teachers.  I'm a former Hawaii DOE teacher and my wife is currently a teacher at an Oahu private school.  99% of Hawaii teachers are anti-gun and because of their own bias, ignorance, or both they teach the children to be anti-gun.  Case in point, my wife's school teaches all the children that only "bad guys" carry guns.  When they have parents that are LEO's come for career day they come in complete uniform and kit save for their sidearm because school policy is no guns, which is fine.  But when prompted any student there readily responds only bad guys carry guns.  I've wanted to talk to the parents who are LEO's about how their child feels about guns and what they foster at home.  I also knew of one child whose father is a hunter who uses a rifle to take pigs and sheep.  That poor child said his dad has guns and he's not a bad guy.  That seriously threw off the anti gun message while he was there.

Anyways good idea and dead accurate assessment,  but I never see it taking a foot hold here in Hawaii land of brainwashed liberal sheeple.
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rklapp

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 08:35:06 PM »
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Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

zippz

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2018, 06:12:31 AM »
Quote from: kala201 on November 23, 2018, 06:32:17 PM
I'm all for allowing teachers to be armed.  The reality of it is rather disturbing though when it comes to Hawaii teachers.  I'm a former Hawaii DOE teacher and my wife is currently a teacher at an Oahu private school.  99% of Hawaii teachers are anti-gun and because of their own bias, ignorance, or both they teach the children to be anti-gun.

Do you.think teachers here would be more accepting of tasers?
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2018, 11:13:30 AM »
Quote from: kala201 on November 23, 2018, 06:32:17 PM
I'm all for allowing teachers to be armed.  The reality of it is rather disturbing though when it comes to Hawaii teachers.  I'm a former Hawaii DOE teacher and my wife is currently a teacher at an Oahu private school.  99% of Hawaii teachers are anti-gun and because of their own bias, ignorance, or both they teach the children to be anti-gun.  Case in point, my wife's school teaches all the children that only "bad guys" carry guns.  When they have parents that are LEO's come for career day they come in complete uniform and kit save for their sidearm because school policy is no guns, which is fine.  But when prompted any student there readily responds only bad guys carry guns.  I've wanted to talk to the parents who are LEO's about how their child feels about guns and what they foster at home.  I also knew of one child whose father is a hunter who uses a rifle to take pigs and sheep.  That poor child said his dad has guns and he's not a bad guy.  That seriously threw off the anti gun message while he was there.

Anyways good idea and dead accurate assessment,  but I never see it taking a foot hold here in Hawaii land of brainwashed liberal sheeple.

Maybe one of the best ways to teach the teachers to get over their ignorance of guns is to allow those who wish to carry the opportunity.  Once they see people with guns are no different than they were before carrying, they'll learn it's not the guns, but rather who has them, that matters.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2018, 06:57:23 PM »
If a tiny school district (7,000 total residents) in rural coal-country Pennsylvania resists school staff being allowed to voluntarily arm themselves, I can't even imagine the reaction here in Hawaii by the bureaucrats and teachers' union, etc. should some legal decision mandate that such persons be allowed to make that choice for themselves. Pandemonium, to say the least. Too bad we'll never get to find out.

Union Sues to Ensure Educators Cannot Be Armed for Self-Defense

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/11/25/union-sues-to-ensure-educators-cannot-be-armed-for-self-defense/

Pennsylvania’s Tamaqua Area Education Association is suing to prevent teachers from being armed to defend themselves and their students.

The Morning Call reports that the suit comes after Tamaqua Area School District became “the first district in the state to allow armed school staff as a way to defend schools against shooters.”

Tamaqua Area Education Association president President Frank Wenzel issued statement in which he defended the union’s fight to keep teachers unarmed: “As teachers, counselors and other education professionals, we are trained to provide a high-quality education to our students, not to carry or use firearms in dangerous situations. This is a bad policy for a lot of reasons, but we are challenging it in court because we believe it is illegal.”

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Falken Hawke

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2018, 09:24:35 PM »
As I run possibilities through my mind about this, I came to realize while breaking down a school shooting into its parts, reactions against specific changes make no sense.

First off, a school shooting is a mass casualty event at a location with a high density of "soft" targets.  The youngest victims makes for the greatest impact.  The purpose of these incidents at their core is maximum psychological impact, no matter what the initiating motivation is.  The ultimate goal is taking lives and usually, as many as possible.

Some may recognize this description.  It is pretty much the same one to describe a TERROIST INCIDENT.

The thing with terrorist incidents is they aren't "cut & paste".  There are similarities of course, but no two are exactly alike.  With that in mind, there isn't going to be one "catch all" solution.  It will take a number of different solutions working simultaneously AND harmoniously together.  Outright elimination of a possible solution because it isn't likeable is handicapping the outcome.

Just by treating school shootings as the terrorist incidents that they are, it becomes obvious the kinds of solutions required to help lessen their repetition and to mitigate the ones that do occur.

Keeping the mindset that any school is a terrorist target makes it plainly obvious how careless their security has been.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2018, 11:09:07 PM »
Quote from: Falken Hawke on November 25, 2018, 09:24:35 PM
As I run possibilities through my mind about this, I came to realize while breaking down a school shooting into its parts, reactions against specific changes make no sense.

First off, a school shooting is a mass casualty event at a location with a high density of "soft" targets.  The youngest victims makes for the greatest impact.  The purpose of these incidents at their core is maximum psychological impact, no matter what the initiating motivation is.  The ultimate goal is taking lives and usually, as many as possible.

Some may recognize this description.  It is pretty much the same one to describe a TERROIST INCIDENT.

The thing with terrorist incidents is they aren't "cut & paste".  There are similarities of course, but no two are exactly alike.  With that in mind, there isn't going to be one "catch all" solution.  It will take a number of different solutions working simultaneously AND harmoniously together.  Outright elimination of a possible solution because it isn't likeable is handicapping the outcome.

Just by treating school shootings as the terrorist incidents that they are, it becomes obvious the kinds of solutions required to help lessen their repetition and to mitigate the ones that do occur.

Keeping the mindset that any school is a terrorist target makes it plainly obvious how careless their security has been.

Exactly right.  And with that in mind, no set of solutions will guarantee complete safety at schools nor at any other location a mass shooter targets.

So, the only sane approach is to be prepared for when the bad thing happens.  That means presence of full-time security and/or armed citizens who choose to be ready to defend themselves and others.

We might not be able to stop all attempted mass casualty events, but we can sure be capable of limiting the death toll.

We can, and we should, try other solutions aimed at prevention, but to assume that's our only solution set is naive/ignorant.

As for more, stricter laws and AR-15 bans .... "What if I told you, the next school shooter already has the weapon he'll use?"
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 02:36:53 PM »
From today's Gun Watch blog by Dean Weingarten. It's short and to the point. Reiterates one of the many shortcomings of the the "security" in place at the school... including knowing of the perpetrator for at least a year before the murders, and seeing him when he first walked into the school with a rifle case... and doing nothing... okay, well, the second security guard when told by the first who saw the murderer enter the school with a rifle case, he hid in a closet until everyone was dead. That's some tactical training kicking in there...

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2018/12/more-cowardice-uncovered-at-parkland.html

More Cowardice uncovered at Parkland Shooting: "Security" Recognized Shooter with Rifle case, did Nothing

Wikipedia says the murderer was carry a "duffle bag" and a backpack. That is incorrect.  The murderer was carrying a black rifle case, not a duffle bag.



Rifle Case used by Mass Murderer in Parkland

It is a critical distinction, because Andrew Medina, a school security monitor, recognized the rifle case.

Andrew Medina stated the murderer was carrying a rifle bag, and he recognized it as such. He said this in a recorded interview, under oath, shortly after the shooting.

 Link to interview video on twitter 9https://twitter.com/AndrewPollackFL/status/1069717638803267584?s=03)

He was the  first person recorded to see the murderer enter campus. He stated that he had been briefed; the murderer was the most likely to "shoot up the school" and that he recognized him. From the miami herald.com: 

As soon as Cruz began walking "like on a mission" toward the building, Medina followed and began frantically texting fellow security guards. "We had a meeting about him last year and we said if there's gonna be anybody whose gonna come to this school and shoot this school up, it's going to be that kid," Medina told detectives on the day of the Feb. 14 shooting.

Medina stated that when the murderer had been enrolled at the school they were "always watching him":

"Just crazy," Medina recalled of Cruz during the teen's time at Parkland. "And we always was watching him, you know. Like, it was one of those kids that we always kept an eye on."
What was the point of being briefed on the threat, recognizing him, and then doing nothing to stop him? Medina called another unarmed security monitor. That monitor hid in a closet during the shooting.

This is an obvious point of failure of the system. If Medina had confronted the murderer, he might have been able to stop him from entering the school. At the minumum, he would have disrupted the murderers plan and reduced the response time by armed police.

Medina recognized him as a threat. He recognized he was carrying a rifle case. The murderer was forbidden from being on the school campus. A rifle in a rifle case is not an immediate threat until it is removed from the case. The murderer did not appear to be armed with other weapons. Medina did nothing to stop him. He never shouted at him or called for him to stop.

Medina is said, after the shooting started,  a minute after the murderer entered the school, to have driven to the front of the school (on his utility vehicle) to get Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer and Sheriff's deputy.  Medina said he took Peterson back to where the murderer entered the school.

That is where Peterson stayed, calling backup, and waiting.
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changemyoil66

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 02:55:15 PM »
Is Medina still around?  Sounds like he might do a Seth Rich.
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punaperson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2018, 06:29:27 AM »
Following up on Sheriff Gualtsieri's recommendation of last week, the latest.

Can anyone even imagine (I can't) law enforcement leaders here in Hawaii publicly officially stating that teachers and school staff should have the option to be armed in order to have a chance to stop a school mass casualty event perpetrator?

Parkland high school shooting commission votes 13-to 1 to recommend arming select teachers – ‘One or two police officers is not enough’

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/13/commission-investigating-parkland-votes-13-1-to-arm-teachers/

From the AP linked story:

The Latest on the commission that is investigating the Florida high school massacre. The panel investigating the Florida high school massacre is recommending that teachers who volunteer and undergo extensive background checks and training be allowed to carry concealed guns on campus to stop future shootings.

The Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Commission voted 13-1 Wednesday to recommend the Legislature allow the arming of those teachers, saying it’s not enough to have one or two police officers or armed guards on campus.

Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri, the commission’s chairman, pushed the measure, saying that most deaths in school shootings happen within the first few minutes, before officers responded.

* * * * *

Deputy Who Did Not Confront Parkland Gunman Claims ‘No Legal Duty’ to Act

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/12/deputy-confront-parkland-gunman-legal-duty/

On another related note, the cop hired for security who chose to stand outside and let the murderer continue unobstructed in the gun-free zone has attempted to terminate a lawsuit against him, claiming he had no legal duty to act to stop the attack. Although the judge dismissed that legal claim in this case, it is true that no law enforcement officer anywhere has any legal duty or obligation to act in any manner to stop a criminal attack on any particular person. It is long settled law. Here is a fairly brief summary of the lawsuits that have affirmed that cops have no legal duty to protect:

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html

Remember, even if the police were obligated to protect us (which they aren't), or even if they tried to protect us (which they often don't, a fact brought home to millions nationwide as they watched in horror the recent events in Los Angeles), most often there wouldn't be time enough for them to do it. It's about time that we came to grips with that, and resolved never to abdicate responsibility for our personal safety, and that of our loved ones, to anyone else.





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changemyoil66

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2018, 03:16:55 PM »
Quote from: punaperson on December 17, 2018, 06:29:27 AM


* * * * *

Deputy Who Did Not Confront Parkland Gunman Claims ‘No Legal Duty’ to Act

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/12/12/deputy-confront-parkland-gunman-legal-duty/

On another related note, the cop hired for security who chose to stand outside and let the murderer continue unobstructed in the gun-free zone has attempted to terminate a lawsuit against him, claiming he had no legal duty to act to stop the attack. Although the judge dismissed that legal claim in this case, it is true that no law enforcement officer anywhere has any legal duty or obligation to act in any manner to stop a criminal attack on any particular person. It is long settled law. Here is a fairly brief summary of the lawsuits that have affirmed that cops have no legal duty to protect:

https://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html

Remember, even if the police were obligated to protect us (which they aren't), or even if they tried to protect us (which they often don't, a fact brought home to millions nationwide as they watched in horror the recent events in Los Angeles), most often there wouldn't be time enough for them to do it. It's about time that we came to grips with that, and resolved never to abdicate responsibility for our personal safety, and that of our loved ones, to anyone else.

Didn't SCOTUS rule that he is correct?  Warren Vs. DC?
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2018, 05:43:06 PM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on December 17, 2018, 03:16:55 PM
Didn't SCOTUS rule that he is correct?  Warren Vs. DC?

Nope.  SCOTUS said Cops have no duty to protect a specific person.  Their duty is to ensure the safety of the public at large. 

That case was about the police not keeping an INDIVIDUAL safe.  Even though she was issued a restraining order against her eventual killer, the court ruled there was no LEGAL duty on the part of the police to ensure her safety -- meaning they can't be sued for failing to stop her attacker, even if he had an arrest warrant issued against him.

In more general terms, the police can't be sued for not preventing crime against a specific person.

The school shooting was totally different.  The deputy had been assigned to the school to provide SECURITY.  He refused to enter the building after identifying there was a security problem (possible shots fired).  Even when other deputies arrived, he stayed outside rather than protect the students or render aid.

He had a duty to keep the students at that school safe.  He was not responding to a radio call.  He was onsite to provide security.

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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2018, 08:38:02 PM »
Many people calling him a coward and I agree.  But on the other hand, if he did go in and try to engage the shooter, the cops responding would probably have shot him thinking he was the shooter.  They have a habit of doing that lately.  Being sure of your target and what’s behind it also means the person you are shooting deserves to be shot.
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Happily living in Puna

punaperson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2018, 09:56:20 PM »
Quote from: RSN172 on December 17, 2018, 08:38:02 PM
Many people calling him a coward and I agree.  But on the other hand, if he did go in and try to engage the shooter, the cops responding would probably have shot him thinking he was the shooter.  They have a habit of doing that lately.  Being sure of your target and what’s behind it also means the person you are shooting deserves to be shot.
They see a guy dressed as a security guard and immediately think "Perfect disguise for a mass shooter. Light him up."  :rofl:
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changemyoil66

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2018, 10:08:57 PM »
Is sheriff israel under investigation for election fraud?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: Sheriff Investigating Parkland Shooting: Teachers Must Be Armed [DUH!]
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2018, 09:14:50 AM »
Quote from: RSN172 on December 17, 2018, 08:38:02 PM
Many people calling him a coward and I agree.  But on the other hand, if he did go in and try to engage the shooter, the cops responding would probably have shot him thinking he was the shooter.  They have a habit of doing that lately.  Being sure of your target and what’s behind it also means the person you are shooting deserves to be shot.

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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw
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