UPDATE: IRS says you owe money and you are guilty to proven innocent, passport taken away. Doesn't look like the guns thing is true. Sorry I jumped to conclusions on that one. I'll be more thorough to verify information before posting next time.


Being a conspiracy theorist ain't easy. You watch people suck up the daily news without question as the most important stories go ignored, and after a while start to question your own sanity a bit. How can people not see what is happening all around them?

Then something like this happens and you get a strange sense of relief. It was just a matter of time before they started going after 2a, but the question was how. Now we know.

http://congressmantomtancredo.com/bill-gives-the-irs-power-to-authorize-the-removal-of-the-right-to-own-a-firearm/

Yup it's going thru the red tape slowly. Big government seeking more power. This is another part of Obummers agenda.

I hope everyone votes this year. Anyone but Obama!!!!!!

https://www.examiner.com/article/watchdogs-say-irs-to-revoke-gun-rights-and-passports

Even if Obama is out, the Federal Reserve (a private bank) will still be there calling the shots behind the scenes. The IRS is their collection agency, and the money doesn't go to roads or schools but to pay off the interest on money they printed out of thin air and loaned to our government. Ron Paul would probably be the best choice, but at this point I doubt there's little he could do to stop a massive slide in our standard of living. Spurred by Iran's resistance, other countries are making their way out of the dollar-based oil trade and if we manage to avoid WW3 our paper won't be worth much. In my opinion that's why we are seeing such an unprecedented attack on our rights in the past few months, now finally going after 2a. They know it's only a matter of time and plan on locking the place down like a giant prison.

Daggumit! It ain't (just) Obama!

First, if you're going to be a conspiracy theorist get it right! This is all part of the Master Plan of the Invisible, All Powerful Overlords who rule the world. Doesn't matter which nitwit is in office The Plan will continue. You think voting Romney into the Big House is going to change the Evil Plan to turn the U S of A into a nation of crossdressing pacifist slaves who work in FEMA death camps? On the other hand... if you do elect Romney and this doesn't come to pass then the world will have been saved, won't it?

(Wait, why do they want a giant penal colony, again? Prisoners don't pay taxes or buy cheaply made crap at Big Box Mart.)

Second... WTF?! The sections referred to in pages 1320 - 1324 of that monstrosity aren't (necessarily) relevant. The part starting at line 21 on page 1320 specifically says this language does NOT prohibit or regulate transportation of firearms and ammo. All the crap about permits and whatnot have to do with transportation machinery that requires special permits NOT firearms permits. As far as I can make out anyway: I haven't looked at the code that is being amended by this section, yet. There are NO federal firearms permits for regular pistols and long guns, anyway, so unless they are talking about machine guns there is no federal code this section could be amending that has to do with firearms that are not already federally regulated.

Otherwise, we have a hell of a state's rights issue on our hands here since the infringing of the 2nd amendment is left up to that state's for the most part.

Third... WTF?!  The second section of concern, pages 1447 - 1452, only give the Secretary of State the right to revoke a person's passport if they have $50,000 or more in back taxes. While the law appears to make this joint action by the Secretary of State mandatory if the IRS requests it... in NEVER mentions anything having to do with firearms anywhere.

This doesn't grant the IRS the power to revoke your (non-existent) federal firearms permits if you are late paying your taxes. Because firearms are mentioned elsewhere (as an exclusion) suddenly we suspect the bill of giving the IRS the right to take away our guns?

Given that I am not a lawyer... looks like "anti-gun" parts of this bill specifically prohibit the bill from affecting already existing legislation around transportation of firearms and ammo and makes it hard for folks with a lot of back taxes from leaving the country until they pay up.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/11638-map-21-targets-gun-rights-and-more

It's all up to interpretation, which is the problem. Purposefully crafted vague language is very dangerous, especially in an era where extrajudicial killings of American citizens are taking place, protest has been made illegal, torturers are let off the hook, secret prisons are popping up everywhere (not talking about FEMA camps, mind you), the regular prison population is skyrocketing, feel-ups at the airport, unpopular war/economic policies shoved down our throats, rights for seizure of all property during a declared 'crisis', etc. The list goes on and on. That and the candidates are pretty much identical, except for the skin tone thing which most people seem to be obsessed with.

So when the IRS declares they can keep you from traveling by merely accusing you of unpaid tax, no due process involved, and put you on some list that could prevent you from owning firearms yeah I definitely take it seriously. $50,000 may seem like a lot today, but who knows what the value of paper will be in a few months or next year. That could be what we pay for a gallon of milk some day. As far as the Luciferian concept of New World Order, or Globalization as some like to call it, I'd say their time is almost up. The question is what kind of world would we replace this one with given a chance?

Just realized that when i said 'their time is almost up' that it might set off an alarm with the surveillance state, so just want to clarify. It's like what New Englanders say about the weather over there. If you don't like it then just wait five minutes. The second law of thermodynamics states that all systems have either stable or increasing entropy. Ours has burned hotter and brighter than any in recorded history and has obviously passed it's peak, so the only question that remains is what it will be replaced with. Hopefully not the first guy to jump on top of a car with an AK who starts screaming about the 'other' people and how it's all their fault.

The NRA's opinion is that the bill's only reference to firearms is related to permits to transport hazzardous materials and would not impact personal firearms or ammunition transportation

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2012/rumor-control.aspx

This is all part of the Master Plan of the Invisible, All Powerful Overlords who rule the world.

Who is the conspiracy theorist?  Please provide credible documentation.

And, I like get what you are smoking . . . 

Wirecounter.... if you didn't catch the tongue in cheek gay, pacifist prison camp reference or the question about why "they" want a nation of prisoners, anyway.... then you might have missed that the rest of my post, which was more serious, essentially called it the same as the NRA did. I suppose I should have put a few of these (  ,  and    )in the conspiracy bit there.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I know about a lot of the many conspiracy theories out there and know some of the (gaping) holes in them. I know that most conspiracy theories are a case of observations being shaped by expectation - as was the case with this bill. Someone saw "Gun", "Permit" and "deny passport" in the same 3000 page document and said "See? SEE?! They're a'comin' to git yer guns! I knew it!"

Guess not. Won't stop the theorists, though. They'll be ever vigilant for the next bit of proof that they were right all along. 

hvybarrels pointed out:

Being a conspiracy theorist ain't easy. You watch people suck up the daily news without question as the most important stories go ignored, and after a while start to question your own sanity a bit. How can people not see what is happening all around them?

What most people don't get when they slam "conspiracy theorists" with that label is that the "conspiracy theorist's" thinking style is similar to the thought processes that a great military leader goes through in assessing what his opponent can or might or could do.  As in, "He could feint an atttack over there, thus drawing our forces away from the real point of attack."

The way to counter that in the modern political scene is to marginalize this type of thinking, valid as it might be, with pejorative labels.

This, to the point where the term "conspiracy theorist" has become almost identical to the terms "crackpot" or "tin-foil-hattery" or "paranoia."  Therefore the kind of thinking necessary to win is dismissed as mere nonsense.  This marginalization technique is an excellent tool for the enemy.

Thus, this techique has now been institutionalized to the point where we actually have emoticons depicting that "strategy and tactics" style of thinking.



But what do I know?  I'm just wun uh them there conspiracy theorists 'cause I can't help trying to out-think my opponents --or you could call it, if I did it in a military setting, "trying be a good General."

Terry, 230RN

Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get us.

Good points, Terry.

I just get lost when the BS hits about chest level. Yeah, yeah, the government isn't what we we're told it was in high school civics... but does that really mean FEMA is setting up "Death Camps?" Why?! What purpose does that serve? Because we're too dangerous and free thinking otherwise? Please. It has been a long while since this was a nation of dangerous free thinkers.

Yeah, yeah, I know Fort Knox is empty of gold and the value of our money is an agreed upon fiction... but does that really mean that the Illuminati are planning to tank the dollar and take over the U.S. and turn us into a nation of slaves? Why?! We're one of the richest nations in the world and we already spend the money on whatever "they" seem to think best. If we're slaves.... we're no longer the richest nation and no longer generating that wealth.

All the take over stuff has already happened and what we have now looks like the perfect playground for our Shadowy Overlords: the congress of the largest economy in the world is more or less for sale and the people of that nation spend gobs of money on crap products, crap food and crap houses. If I were a Shadowy Overlord I wouldn't want this to change, I'd just want in on the moving and selling of all that crap.

As long as we're mostly fat, dumb and happy living the American Dream of the nuclear family home (each with its own host of appliances and products so there is no sharing of resources to constrict commerce) then the fact that we have guns is irrelevant. Its not like we're going to get uppity and rebellious when we're fat and happy. If things slide towards being unhappy - and I mean really unhappy, not just slightly inconvenienced - then guns might become an issue... but we're more likely to shoot each other than try and find a Shadowy Overlord to blame. They learned that lesson in the French Revolution: don't rule the land directly and live in a castle where they can find you.

So we work at our toy jobs, live in our toy houses, vote in our toy elections, write to our toy representatives and play with our toy guns... and its all good as long as we keep shopping, paying our taxes and trying (but most often failing) to get rich in the stock market..

So why do we need "Death Camps" and forced slavery? Its already easier than breathing for us to participate in the pocket lining of other people.

There comes a time one realizes they are getting screwed, and as my great grandfather used to say about the screwers: "Well, they either gotta be dumb or evil." He didn't bother making distinctions because the results are the same and trying to figure out motivations and psychology at the later stages of the game is a waste of time. Consider the ancient parable of the Scorpion and the Turtle (or frog) from back in the old Sanskrit days. For some people it's just their nature.

Psychopaths naturally bubble their way up to the key positions in society by backstabbing and throwing people under the bus, and at some point the concentration achieves critical mass. I'm sure there's a plan to take over the world and enslave humanity, probably lots of them, but when you have executives from Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics dancing around a giant owl statue and performing mock-human sacrifices with the leaders of Wall Street and the so-called Christian-right in the hills behind Monte Rio, California every July...

Let's just say I think their plans are about as well-thought as the idea of constructing hundreds of nuclear reactors that last 20-30 years and having no idea what to do with the waste that lasts 100,000 (besides turning some of it into bullets that give our troops gulf war syndrome).

hvybarrels pointed out:

What most people don't get when they slam "conspiracy theorists" with that label is that the "conspiracy theorist's" thinking style is similar to the thought processes that a great military leader goes through in assessing what his opponent can or might or could do.  As in, "He could feint an atttack over there, thus drawing our forces away from the real point of attack."

The way to counter that in the modern political scene is to marginalize this type of thinking, valid as it might be, with pejorative labels.

This, to the point where the term "conspiracy theorist" has become almost identical to the terms "crackpot" or "tin-foil-hattery" or "paranoia."  Therefore the kind of thinking necessary to win is dismissed as mere nonsense.  This marginalization technique is an excellent tool for the enemy.

Thus, this techique has now been institutionalized to the point where we actually have emoticons depicting that "strategy and tactics" style of thinking.



But what do I know?  I'm just wun uh them there conspiracy theorists 'cause I can't help trying to out-think my opponents --or you could call it, if I did it in a military setting, "trying be a good General."

Terry, 230RN

I like your line of thinking, but I must beg to differ.  A military leader should and does do all those things you mention, as do most members of this forum and gun owners in general.  The difference between a healthy distrust of government and a conspiracy theorist is the grasp of reality.  A conspiracy theorist sees a chain link fence, like the ones used to keep vandals and bums out of every piece of semi-valuable property in the world, and immediately thinks, "FEMA DEATH CAMP!!!"  To carry your military metaphor a little further, it would be similar to general who honestly believes that the enemy possesses unlimited troops, hardware, and intelligence.  Every time some illiterate villager in his AO reports having seen someone with a long, skinny package that might or might not have contained a weapon, he mobilizes his entire base and screams to Washington for reinforcements.  "This one's the big one!  The enemy is going to overrun us tonight!"

clshade, much of what you say is based on the economic motive, and that's certainly a valid reason and in some cases works against the notion of enslavement.  But my viewpoint, as has begun to be pointed out in the last couple of years by many others, is that the main prime motivation is control of other people. 

The thing is, those in a position to be able to develop "takeover schemes" usually already have money and although they may want more, the underlying motivation is to accumulate more power.  This power-hunger is an undeniably strong motivation, in my observation, in a lot of people, wealth notwithanding.

So the way I see it, while collecting more beans is desireable, it is not the whole story.  A large part of it is the simple desire for control, and accumulating wealth is only a route to grabbing that power.  Maybe we should start talking about them as "power-grabbers" instead of "gun-grabbers."  To be sure, there are folks out there who just "hate guns," but to me they are only tools in the grand strategy of, if you will, "taking over the world."

Cougar8045, certainly there are more "games" which apply strategic thinking than merely the military.  I chose that as the most obvious use of the concept.  And I agree that, as clshade put it, when it reaches "chest level," we should take a step back, but this does not preclude a rational examination of all possibilities, however bizzare they may be.

While there are folks out there who honestly think that a chain link fence automatically means "concentration camp," for some of us who can integrate a whole bunch of happenings, like the outrageous Executive Orders, and the proposed law cited in the original post, etc, etc, etc, it is not so far-fetched a possibility as one might think.

Surely, it is one's right to believe that the FEMA camps' purposes are totally benign and the proposed IRS law is likewise, but it is also legitimate to consider the other possibilities, and to dismiss the idea that they could be used as concentration camps for dissidents is sort of --forgive me --naïve, given the past behaviors of various governments.  Now it could be getting up to chest-high level to advance the notion that they will be used as death camps...

But they could be.  And it is not paranoia to think of this in the abstract, planning room, General Headquarters sense.  It may be voted down by the General's staff, but to bring it up is not paranoia.

Laugh if you will, but basically, if I can think of that in my little senior citizen's apartment, and hvybarrels could think of it out there on the Islands, there is no reason that it could not be considered by others as a real possibility just in case we need to intern "dissidents" instead of merely shelter victims of natural disasters.

Terry, 230RN

@Terry,230RN
+1 very nicely put. Aloha

The assault on constitutional rights has been steady since the Patriot Act, but over the past four months has been greatly accelerated. We can get lost in conjecture over what the significance of the FEMA camp mass-buildup but all the other signs are much more real and tangible like the latest NDAA, Emergency Preparedness directive, and the laundry list of internet censorship now culminating in CISPA.

IRS says you owe money and you are guilty to proven innocent, passport taken away. Doesn't look like the guns thing is true. Sorry I jumped to conclusions on that one. I'll be more thorough to verify information before posting next time.

^No worries.

I think the main bone of contention is whether a way-out idea reaches chest level or not... or whether the chest is the appropriate level in the first place.

Terry, 230RN

Nice posts, Terry.

For me, chest level is when a conclusion is reached that a level headed reading of the evidence doesn't support. The assumptions about the bill here is one such case. That's why I read the text of the bill: I couldn't believe it without seeing it with my own eyes.

As for the FEMA "death camps"...

I know some of the folks in FEMA. They are honest civil servants who want to save lives and property. Prior to 2003 the agency facilitated that fairly well. In 2003 it was absorbed into the Department of Homeland Security... which is now it's boss and its budget category. The head of FEMA at the time warned that this was a mistake and Katrina came along and proved it. To my knowledge the chain of command (and funding) issues that lead to this have not changed and part of FEMA's build up of resources is to prevent funds for emergencies from being bled off into other projects that DHS oversees. They are spending it on hard goods while they have it to spend. Knowing this it breaks my heart every time I see these good folks being accused of preparing to imprison large portions of the population.

However if DHS wanted to create a "death camp" there is nothing stopping them from commandeering FEMA's resources to do so. Nothing.

I generally hold my friendly government bureaucrats in extremely low regard; which is why I rarely buy into any theory that involves a whole lot of coordinated effort.  The natural course of bureaucracy is to constantly expand and erode freedom--no conspiracy needed.  If a person in a large organization wants to be more important (as almost everyone does), he can either excel at his job, work hard, and wait to be promoted to a more important position.  OR, he can gin up some reason or other why his department requires more people.  Wham, bam, thankyouma'am, he gets four new people hired to his department and he's instantly more important.  In this manner, government constantly tries to erode our freedoms, but it's not some dark conspiracy, it's simple human nature at work. 

Now of course there are exceptions, sometimes people really are part of a conspiracy, but I'm of the opinion that it generally takes the shape of the EPA "crucifying" companies or something similar; rather than a "we're going to take over the world, Pinky" mentality.

Nice posts, Terry.

For me, chest level is when a conclusion is reached that a level headed reading of the evidence doesn't support. The assumptions about the bill here is one such case. That's why I read the text of the bill: I couldn't believe it without seeing it with my own eyes.

Thanks for the props.  One thing that bothers me is that the IRS can already sieze personal property to satisfy your debt... like TVs, cars, computers... and... your guns.  However, according to what I read about that act, they now only have to allege that a debt exists, however small without actually going through the normal hearing "due process."

Since you've read the whole bill, is that true?  Is this a change from former practice?

If that's the case, then we no longer have any private property rights, and barely have any private property "privileges," as opposed to "rights."

To me, this all smacks of the ourageous Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO), where the mere allegation of criminal activity allows LEO officials to seize property involved in that activity without due process.

Between this, that, the other thing, and various scurrilous Executive Orders, you can't call it "paranoia" when someone gets concerned that we are not only approaching a thorough police state, but are in fact in one already.

Terry, 230RN