What laws did the NRA help with (Read 5068 times)

changemyoil66

What laws did the NRA help with
« on: December 07, 2018, 02:49:36 PM »
So there is more and more infringements to the 2A than positive laws.  Can anyone post a list of what infringing laws the NRA/NRA-ILA helped with?

1) NJ Mag ban upheld-Did they help
2) Colorado, Hawaii, MA, etc...bump stocks all illegal-They didn't help Hawaii
3) ATF working on bump stock ban-NRA did advise Trump (Reciprocity attached?  Yeah right)
4) Colorado mag bans upheld
5) Colorado soon to require registration of "assault rifles"
6) Clinton era assault weapons ban
7) Regan era machine gun ban
8) California "featureless" law-Didn't help at all
9) RAPBACK
10) Young vs. Hawaii-Did any gun org help at all or was reached out to (Zipps did mention something, but I forgot)
11) Roberts Vs. Hawaii- Same as above

I'm asking because maybe the NRA is just attracting members due to their name and prior history?  So would other gun orgs be a better option to give money to?  Or of them all, is the NRA still helping the most?

I do understand the no company can fight every infringing law, but seems like there are way to many to even count anymore (See CA as example).

wolfwood

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 06:48:57 PM »
The Hawaii Firearms Coalition has been a big help in Young (I contacted many groups including the NRA they all told me to pound sand) and obviously Andrew Roberts (who along with Todd founded the group)  is my client in both Roberts cases. 

« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 06:15:33 AM by wolfwood »
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changemyoil66

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 08:05:32 PM »
The Hawaii Firearms Coalition has been a big help in Young (I contacted many groups including the NRA they all told me to pound sand) and obviously andrew is my client in both Roberts cases.
Thank u for all that youre doing.

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All_rice

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 11:23:49 PM »
So there is more and more infringements to the 2A than positive laws.  Can anyone post a list of what infringing laws the NRA/NRA-ILA helped with?

1) NJ Mag ban upheld-Did they help
2) Colorado, Hawaii, MA, etc...bump stocks all illegal-They didn't help Hawaii
3) ATF working on bump stock ban-NRA did advise Trump (Reciprocity attached?  Yeah right)
4) Colorado mag bans upheld
5) Colorado soon to require registration of "assault rifles"
6) Clinton era assault weapons ban
7) Regan era machine gun ban
8) California "featureless" law-Didn't help at all
9) RAPBACK
10) Young vs. Hawaii-Did any gun org help at all or was reached out to (Zipps did mention something, but I forgot)
11) Roberts Vs. Hawaii- Same as above

I'm asking because maybe the NRA is just attracting members due to their name and prior history?  So would other gun orgs be a better option to give money to?  Or of them all, is the NRA still helping the most?

I do understand the no company can fight every infringing law, but seems like there are way to many to even count anymore (See CA as example).

The NRA is catching a lot of heat online.  More and more people are losing faith in them and going with other orgs. 
Land of the free, because of the Brave!

punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 06:11:09 AM »
The NRA's involvement, or lack thereof, goes back a long way. Here is a brief article with lengthy reproduction (and links to the original photocopies) of then NRA president Karl T. Frederick testifying before congress re the proposed National Firearms act of 1934 (which added a $200 "tax" to a shotgun that cost $5-10, and to a suppressor that cost even less, thus making them financially unavailable to most people of the Depression era, i.e. a de facto ban). Some of you likely already know that history, but for those who don't, well, it's worth knowing just from the historical knowledge aspect... how we got the laws we've got. Same goes for GCA 1968, etc.

Here is a classic from the NRA president during his testimony:

"I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. ... I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses" [emphasis added]

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/nra/nfa.asp

Congressional hearings over the National Firearms Act of 1934 (H.R.9066) took place April 16 & 18 and May 14, 15, & 16 of 1934. Then-NRA President Karl T. Frederick testified on behalf of the National Rifle Association (NRA). His testimony is below and includes the text in full plus scanned images of each page.

Before you read the full transcript, your attention is drawn to a few of excerpts that might interest you as a friend of the original meaning, purpose and intent of the Second Amendment. Some NRA supporters are fond of saying that the NRA was not involved in gun-related legislative activities that far back. Somehow, they believe that repeating that myth often enough will make it true.

NRA President Frederick's testimony began by explaining that he had "been giving this subject of firearms regulations study and consideration over a period of 15 years" and that "the suggestions resulting from that study of mine...have resulted in the adoption in many States of regulatory provisions suggested by us." He later described his active role in helping pass D.C.'s then-recent, ultra-stringent gun controls. Having helped enact gun control legislation was a matter of pride for NRA's president -- as you shall see below. The D.C. gun controls of which he candidly boasted included the following provisions, among others:

•   prohibited carrying a concealed pistol without a license -- with an exemption, of course, for law enforcement officers
•   justification for getting licensed to carry a firearm if "applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property" -- and the license application process included a mugshot, treating lawful gun owners like common criminals
•   a two-day waiting period to purchase a handgun -- with an exemption, of course, for law enforcement officers -- even though violent stalkers don't tend to wait to attack
•   required thorough record-keeping by gun dealers, of all transactions and every buyer
•   required that the seller deliver all of a buyer's personal information to the police within hours of the transaction, including the make, model and serial number of the firearm
•   mandated that gun dealers be licensed at the discretion of the police
•   banned altering firearms' serial numbers or other identifying marks

Charles Nichols

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 03:27:39 PM »
Then-NRA President Karl T. Frederick opposed Open Carry as well.

oldfart

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 03:47:41 PM »
These things makes the nra look bad.
In the other hand, I don't want the antis gloating over the downfall of the nra either.

I don't know of any other organization that provides largescale and credible training programs.
What, Me Worry?

zippz

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 04:58:38 PM »
You have to go back in history on how the NRA was formed.  Military officers started the NRA to help the military with marksmanship.  Then they supported training, law enforcement, hunting, and competition.  They werent the gun rights organization you know today.  They supported banning carrying guns in public in California which makes it odd that they are fighting to legalize it now.
The NRA has changed and we are better off now overall in protecting gun rights and maintaining a large gun owning population.

Its not the NRAs job to defend 2nd Amendment rights in Hawaii.  Instead they support our actions here.  Its the job of the people that live here.  Its our community and our responsibility to take care of ourselves and eachother.  That is why I formed the Hawaii Firearms Coalition. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:04:40 PM by zippz »

punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 06:16:46 AM »
You have to go back in history on how the NRA was formed.  Military officers started the NRA to help the military with marksmanship. 

Yes. It was created by former Union/Yankee civil war officers who had been appalled at the lack of knowledge of firearms, skill, and marksmanship of Yankee rank and file infantry.

Then they supported training, law enforcement, hunting, and competition.  They werent the gun rights organization you know today. 

It doesn't matter what their intended purpose, or stated purpose, or actual purpose was, all that matters is what they actually did. And what they did, via the testimony and influence of their executives and staff, was help create a lot of restrictions on the rights of law-abiding Americans.

They supported banning carrying guns in public in California which makes it odd that they are fighting to legalize it now.

I see what you did there. Yeah, they helped write California's Mulford Act after the Black Panthers lawfully openly carried weapons at the state capitol building. If one reads Heller (authored by Scalia) and McDonald (authored by Alito, but really just a "What he said" to Scalia) it's quite clear that the SCOTUS ruling(s) allow for the strict regulation, to the point of a total ban, on concealed carry, and that the "right" to bear arms for individual self-defense is to openly bear them. I mean, it's in black and white in multiple locations. It's the basis of the Ninth Circuit's Peruta en banc decision that "there is no right to carry concealed weapons in public". NO RIGHT TO BEAR CONCEALED. All the other circuit courts that have ruled that the "restrictions" in place in those jurisdictions that severely limit who may get a license/permit to carry concealed are lawful restrictions, and SCOTUS has refused to grant cert to even one single one of those cases. Some of those cases were financed, at least in part, by the NRA, including Peruta. In Peruta, and to this very day, the NRA argues that a state can ban EITHER concealed or open carry, but NOT BOTH... in very clear contradiction to the Heller decision. (To be fair, Alan Gura, representing the Second Amendment Foundation legal arm, argued the same thing.) (HINT: one is NOT a right, and one IS a right. Take a wild guess at which can be banned. And which can't. Now, why are you arguing that a state can ban one or the other? ) This isn't helping folks. Unless you believe in the "winning by losing" strategy, in which case they have a 100% success rate. [I acknowledge that SCOTUS could take a concealed carry case tomorrow and overturn the rulings in Heller and McDonald that open carry is the right, and concealed is not. But thus far they haven't.]

The NRA has changed and we are better off now overall in protecting gun rights and maintaining a large gun owning population.

See above paragraph. And, note that the NRA tried to derail Heller (argued by Alan Gura, with help from Scalia) because they feared it would lose, and because they weren't in charge and wouldn't get any of the glory if it won. (Okay, the second clause in that sentence is pure speculation, but not the first.) But I agree that they have done some good... it's the bad I have a serious problem with (like giving politicians high scores and supporting their campaigns financially and then having those politicians screw us over once elected, etc. Note also that the NRA has refused to be of any assistance in the issues listed by the OP.

Its not the NRAs job to defend 2nd Amendment rights in Hawaii.  Instead they support our actions here.  Its the job of the people that live here.  Its our community and our responsibility to take care of ourselves and eachother.  That is why I formed the Hawaii Firearms Coalition.

Yes. And thank you for the amazing amount of work you are doing, which is beyond commendable. But... what you wrote about responsibility is true for everyone everywhere, and still, the NRA picks and chooses which issues, cases, and candidates they will support with financial and legal aid. I believe it is fair and necessary to hold them to account for their choices, including questioning their strategies, priorities, and sell outs (see: bump stocks, open carry, NFA 1934, GCA 1968, gun free school zones, etc. etc. etc.).

changemyoil66

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2018, 07:13:09 AM »
Thats why if im on a budget to donate, i would rather donate to HiFiCo.  Unless u guys support a bump stock ban also. JK.

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zippz

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2018, 08:35:03 AM »
If anyone wants to talk to the NRA the best time is when their rep comes over during the legislative session.  I invite anyone to talk over drinks.  I might do a videoconf this time so the outer islanders have the opportunity.

Or atttend the NRAAM or visit their HQ in Virginia if youre in the area.

punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2018, 04:27:56 PM »
Just to clarify that I wasn't being hyperbolic or merely humorously exaggerating above in my condemnation of the NRA current litigation strategy of refusing to deem open carry the right to bear, here is a quote from page 1 of the NRA sponsored Flanagan v Becerra Appellant's Reply Brief, FILED YESTERDAY, December 11, 2018:

"In short, California may favor allowing citizens to carry openly but not concealed. See Peruta v. County of San Diego, 824 F.3d 919, 942 (9th Cir. 2016)[See below.]. The State may, inversely, allow citizens to carry their weapons concealed but not openly."

"Allow"? Really? "Allow" a right to be exercised? WTF?!  :wtf:

Inversely, indeed! Inversely that means that if the state can ban concealed carry, and can ban open carry, then neither open carry nor concealed carry is a right, because a right cannot be banned, making carry in any manner merely a privilege to be doled out, or not, at the whim of some bureaucrat somewhere by whatever arbitrary and capricious "criteria" they may or may not apply. This is what we have in Hawaii, to the tune of not one single resident being "allowed" to lawfully exercise their pre-existing right to self-defense outside their home.

This is a continuation of a well-proven losing strategy, and it's how they lead off the brief! Gee, I wonder how this will go...

[Here is the exact quote from Peruta II: “the Second Amendment does not preserve or protect a right of a member of the general public to carry concealed firearms in public.”]

punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 06:31:48 AM »
Here's how one firearms-related civil rights advocate puts the NRA's legal position just filed in Becerra in the context of previous NRA legal arguments in lawsuits they previously lost:

From page 1 of the Flanagan v. Becerra Reply Brief by NRA/CRPA lawyer (from New Jersey) Chuck Michel.

"In short, California may favor allowing citizens to carry openly but not concealed. The State may, inversely, allow citizens to carry their weapons concealed but not openly. And it may even take both options off the table in especially sensitive places."

Do you remember that time Michel and Associates argued before a three-judge panel of the 9th circuit court of appeals that it is constitutional to ban high capacity magazines but 10 rounds is too small?

The court said, "You're right! It is constitutional to ban high capacity magazines." And then upheld the law.

Remember that time Michel and Associates told a three-judge panel of the 9th circuit court of appeals that a law requiring that handguns be kept locked in a safe in the home when not being carried in the home was a minor burden?

The court said, "You're right! The mandatory storage requirement is a minor burden." And then upheld the law.

The NRA/CRPA Flanagan v. Becerra appeal is deja vu all over again.

That fact should be obvious to everyone except for the stupid people because, you know, they are too stupid to know that they are stupid.

punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 08:23:29 AM »

punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2018, 07:38:55 AM »

wolfwood

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2018, 07:41:32 AM »
The NRA actually supported the first three of those things
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punaperson

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2018, 08:09:30 AM »
The NRA actually supported the first three of those things
Not if you ask them.

They always have a "rationalization" (usually some form of "it was a compromise to avoid a much worse law"). Just like right now they claim to support open carry, but in court their lawyers argue (as recently as last week, in the Ninth Circuit, where concealed carry has already been declared not a right) that a state can ban open carry in favor of concealed carry. Since anyone with half a brain knows that a right cannot be banned...

changemyoil66

Re: What laws did the NRA help with
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2018, 09:19:07 AM »