Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws (Read 6159 times)

zippz

Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« on: January 23, 2019, 08:47:30 AM »
Need your guys help to point out important facts, things you didnt' know, and things that look unusual in this report so I can include it in this Saturday's meeting.  I've been scrambling to get the bill information compiled so need your help on this.

This report was from the SCR116 last year, a resolution by Sen Nishihara to study gun related issues which formed the basis of some of the gun control bills this year.  https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/Archives/measure_indiv_Archives.aspx?billtype=SCR&billnumber=116&year=2018.


http://lrbhawaii.org/reports/legrpts/lrb/2018/18-01.pdf

zippz

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 09:24:04 AM »
Also point out things we can use against them for testimony.  Great to use their own stuff against them.

hvybarrels

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 05:28:44 PM »
Is it just me or do those numbers say pretty much nothing? Like totally inconclusive one way or the other.

Also it seems a lot like begging the question (not to mention lazy) that the only numbers they crunched were comparing gun registrations with crime, which insinuates that the crime was caused by registered guns. I'm just going to go out on a limb and guess a significant percentage of violent crimes are committed with guns that HPD didn't even know were out there.
“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

zippz

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 06:06:31 PM »
pls reference page numbers, makes it easier for me.  Thanks.

tillamook

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 07:33:36 PM »
Looking through now.

Opinion on this one:
Page 21 - How Hawaii Compares to some states

Very specific on how we are like restrictive states
limited details on how we are unlike less restrictive states. 

It comes across as we are about middle when we are the most restrictive

Graphs on page 99-108 have no correlation analysis.  Just 2 sets of data on the same graph does not mean correlation.  Im not a statistician, but I know that that is not a good way to present data.  They could put "number of violent movies watched, murders with a firearm" on the same graph and it does not necessarily mean anything either. 

"Correlation is a statistical measure (expressed as a number) that describes the size and direction of a relationship between two or more variables. A correlation between variables, however, does not automatically mean that the change in one variable is the cause of the change in the values of the other variable."

"For two variables, a statistical correlation is measured by the use of a Correlation Coefficient, represented by the symbol (r), which is a single number that describes the degree of relationship between two variables. "

London808

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2019, 07:37:21 PM »
No rap back requirement is mentioned. Why? Because as i have said all along you are not required to sign it. Only that the police department is required to preform the background checks in the section noted.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

punaperson

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 07:02:10 AM »
This is the "short" version... as it'd take days to detail the smoke and mirrors and stupidity of this "report" with the "cute" name "Straight Shooting" and the absurd use of the word "Objective" in it's title... just a few lowpoints...

This “report” is a joke. In terms of providing any useful information as to whether Hawaii's draconian “commonsense gun safety laws” are effective, it provides no information at all. To determine if the “gun registration”, “permits to acquire”, "waiting period", etc. are a deterrent to crime, i.e. “enhance public safety” (as is their justification) we would need to know how many crimes are committed by prohibited persons using illegally possessed firearms (which they admit they have no idea of at all), and then compare those statistics (as rate) to other states having similar registration schemes (there are none because only Hawaii requires registration of all handguns and long guns), and those that have no such schemes. They don't know. They don't want to know, because the facts are that it makes no difference at all in crime rates. All it does is intimidate and make more costly and time-consuming the process to acquire a firearm for law-abiding citizens.

P 16 these wouldn't be of any use around here anyway, considering how many days it gets above 80 degrees...

Prohibited:

Possessing, selling, or delivering a handgun with a frame or receiver that is a die casting of zinc alloy that has a melting temperature of less than 80º F

actually:

§134-15  Restriction of materials for manufacture of pistols or revolvers.  (a)  It shall be unlawful for any person, including a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer, to possess, sell, or deliver any pistol or revolver the frame or receiver of which is a die casting of zinc alloy which has a melting temperature of less than 800 degrees Fahrenheit.


P 17

here they admit that one must be a security guard to get unconcealed license, i.e. the AG was/is a liar when he claims that anyone could have gotten an open carry license any time in the past:

  To ensure that applicants for a license to openly carry a handgun are so “engaged,” HPD requires each applicant to submit a notarized affidavit from the applicant’s employer verifying the applicant’s employment, along with two photographs depicting the applicant in work uniform.

p 22 where's the data on crime comparing these two groups?

We also found that some other states have far less restrictive firearm laws than Hawaii. For example, while Hawaii requires a person to obtain a dealer’s license to sell firearms, forty- three other states do not require similar licenses.

p 22 where's the data on crime comparing these two groups?

As another example, Hawaii has imposed a state background check requirement on all individuals attempting to acquire any type of firearm;   however,  thirty-seven  states  have  not. 

p 23 where's the data on crime comparing these two groups?

Hawaii requires a person to obtain a permit in order to openly carry a handgun, the laws of thirty-one states do not require such a permit.

P 25 so there is no point in making any speculative statements or conclusions about the prevalence or level and degree firearm ownership and crime, or anything else (and of course there is no data at all on the unregistered firearms in the state...)

no reliable data are available regarding the total number of registered firearms that are presently in the State.

P 27 so all persons sexually assaulted are deleted from the database.... that would likely be at least 90% women, so no stats on how many women might possibly have been spared being raped had they been “allowed” to bear arms...

The agency noted that although forcible rape is a violent crime under UCR standards, weapons data are not collected for that crime.   Therefore, CPJAD’s data excluded instances of rape.

P 28 in other words... none of these stats has anything at all to do with the title of the report, and it's supposed utility.

The Judiciary also noted that due to the limitations of its database, the information did not specify whether the cited cases involved firearms.


P29 seriously?

Staff from the Crime Prevention & Justice Assistance Division of the Department of the Attorney General informed us that the agency did not have statistics on accidental firearm deaths

p 29 how do they explain that with the same “commonsense gun safety laws” in effect, the stats on intentional firearm-related deaths fluctuated by 71%?

According to these statistics, very few firearm-related deaths in any given year were accidental.  Three accidental firearm-related deaths occurred  in  each  of  the  years  of  2015  and  2016,  and  no  such  deaths  occurred  in  2017.44


EMSIPSB also noted that the number of intentional firearm-related deaths in any of these given years fluctuated from year to year, with a low of thirty-five in 2007 to a high of sixty in 2016, with a decrease to a ten-year near-low of thirty-six in 2017.45

p 30 in other words they have no idea, and this “unsuccessful permit applicants” would be a tiny subset of the illegal possessors as most of them do not apply for permits because they already know they are prohibited persons. Ludicrous.

These annual reports record reasons for permit denials but do not include statistics regarding any firearm crimes subsequently committed by unsuccessful permit applicants.


p 72 Chart: total proportion of murders committed with firearms. Only 10% of murders in 2017 committed with firearms. 90% via other means. What laws need to be made more strict to prevent all the weapons used in those 90% of murders from falling into the hands of criminals? Where's the rush at the legislature to pass draconian knife (etc.) registration laws?

P 99 chart comparing rate of firearms registered and crimes committed with firearms: obviously no relationship at all. None. Not even the slightest correlation, much less causation. But let's register and ban more stuff. Because gunz!





« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 07:07:31 AM by punaperson »

Falken Hawke

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2019, 08:49:54 AM »
Statistics regarding firearms involved in criminal acts and death are small in comparison to other criminal acts.  Why is time and money being wasted on this issue when there are other more pertinent issues that are a danger to the public.

These statistics also show Hawaii to have less gun related incidents than the Nation.  Why is Hawaii considering laws that are proving ineffective Nation-wide.

tillamook

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 11:12:05 AM »
Statistics regarding firearms involved in criminal acts and death are small in comparison to other criminal acts.  Why is time and money being wasted on this issue when there are other more pertinent issues that are a danger to the public.

These statistics also show Hawaii to have less gun related incidents than the Nation.  Why is Hawaii considering laws that are proving ineffective Nation-wide.

Funny, when you ask the legislators this question, they dont respond.  I'm going to send my second round of emails tonight to see if anyone wants to take a crack at doing their job and responding to constituents. 

6716J

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 12:55:30 PM »
Page 29 (19)

During a state of emergency, if the Governor determines that state law does not adequately provide for the common defense, the Governor may authorize the seizure of firearms and ammunition, except those firearms lawfully held by a person other than a dealer.157
[§127A-13]  Additional powers in an emergency period.  (a)  In the event of a state of emergency declared by the governor pursuant to [section] 127A-14, the governor may exercise the following additional powers pertaining to emergency management during the emergency period:
(11)  Except as provided in section 134-7.2, whenever in the governor's opinion, the laws of the State do not adequately provide for the common defense, public health, safety, and welfare, investigate, regulate, or prohibit the storage, transportation, use, possession, maintenance, furnishing, sale, or distribution of, as well as any transaction related to, explosives, firearms, and ammunition, inflammable materials and other objects, implements, substances, businesses, or services of a hazardous or dangerous character, or particularly capable of misuse, or obstructive of or tending to obstruct law enforcement, emergency management, or military operations, including intoxicating liquor and the liquor business; and authorize the seizure and forfeiture of any such objects, implements, or substances unlawfully possessed, as provided in this chapter.



This completely contradicts 134-7.2
 §134-7.2  Prohibition against seizure of firearms or ammunition during emergency or disaster; suspension of permit or license.  (a)  Notwithstanding any provision of chapter 127A or any other law to the contrary, no person or government entity shall seize or confiscate, under any emergency or disaster relief powers or functions conferred, or during any emergency period, as defined in section 127A-2, or during any time of national emergency or crisis, as defined in section 134-34, any firearm or ammunition from any individual who is lawfully permitted to carry or possess the firearm or ammunition under part I of this chapter and who carries, possesses, or uses the firearm or ammunition in a lawful manner and in accordance with the criminal laws of this State.

     (b)  Notwithstanding any provision of chapter 127A or any other law to the contrary, no person or government entity shall suspend, revoke, or limit, under any emergency or disaster relief powers or functions conferred, any lawfully acquired and maintained permit or license obtained under and in accordance with part I of this chapter.

     (c)  For purposes of this section, "government entity" means any unit of government in this State, including the State and any county or combination of counties, department, agency, institution, board, commission, district, council, bureau, office, governing authority, or other instrumentality of state or county government, or corporation or other establishment owned, operated, or managed by or on behalf of this State or any county. [L 2010, c 96, §1; am L 2014, c 111, §7]


So are they saying, yeah we know what one section says but we can change our mind anyways?


Pag 32 (22)
We also found that some other states have far less restrictive firearm laws than Hawaii. For example, while Hawaii requires a person to obtain a dealer’s license to sell firearms, 187 fortythree other states do not require similar licenses. 188  As another example, Hawaii has imposed a state background check requirement on all individuals attempting to acquire any type of firearm;189 however, thirty-seven states have not.190

Right...
A) All FFLs are required to be licensed Federally. Its a state perogative to have an additional layer
B) Because the GCA of 1986 required all states to provide a method of performing background checks. They could do it themselves or use the national NICS system
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

tillamook

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 01:18:15 PM »
Page 29 (19)

During a state of emergency, if the Governor determines that state law does not adequately provide for the common defense, the Governor may authorize the seizure of firearms and ammunition, except those firearms lawfully held by a person other than a dealer.

Seizure of firearms except lawfully held?  so seizing unlawfully held firearms? The ones they dont know about?  I'm confused.   

zippz

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 06:12:23 AM »
This report made it into the news.  Everyone seems to agree that registration is pointless with all the illegal and unregistered guns in Hawaii.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/02/06/hawaii-news/number-of-registered-firearms-in-hawaii-unknown-study-finds/?HSA=78f1ec8c9b8b0b2e15ff415b293a4b2a1e933be3

punaperson

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 07:52:56 AM »
This report made it into the news.  Everyone seems to agree that registration is pointless with all the illegal and unregistered guns in Hawaii.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/02/06/hawaii-news/number-of-registered-firearms-in-hawaii-unknown-study-finds/?HSA=78f1ec8c9b8b0b2e15ff415b293a4b2a1e933be3
It's only "pointless" if one believes that the intent of the law was ever to have any effect on "public safety" via inhibiting criminals in any way from committing crimes, or in the enhanced ability of law enforcement to solve crimes after the fact.

There never was, and still isn't, any evidence that such laws have any such "public safety" effects at all. That was not and is not the intent of such laws, despite what the liars spew. We all know that. They all know that. It's all lip-service to obfuscate the fact that a slave with a gun becomes a citizen and no longer must obey those who would "govern" him without his consent.

Here's Kurt Schlichter making that exact point yesterday on Cam and Company:

https://www.nratv.com/videos/cam-and-company-2019-kurt-schlichter-finally-some-gun-sense-from-the-left

6716J

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 08:59:57 AM »
This report made it into the news.  Everyone seems to agree that registration is pointless with all the illegal and unregistered guns in Hawaii.

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/02/06/hawaii-news/number-of-registered-firearms-in-hawaii-unknown-study-finds/?HSA=78f1ec8c9b8b0b2e15ff415b293a4b2a1e933be3

Misleading parts of the article. But I guess that's the point from the bird cage liner.
"...Hawaii lawmakers also have declined to pass a ban on assault weapons as some other states have (Hawaii has an assault pistol ban in place). The report notes that California, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York and the District of Columbia have enacted laws to ban or tightly restrict the possession or sale of assault weapons.

In other ways Hawaii’s gun laws are considerably more restrictive than other states. Hawaii requires a state background check for anyone who tries to buy a gun, while 37 other states do not require those checks (every state is required to perform background checks per the 1986 GCA). State law also requires a permit to openly carry a handgun in public, but 31 other states do not..."
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

tillamook

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 01:03:46 PM »
State law also requires a permit to openly carry a handgun in public, but 31 other states do not..."

the state also lets you have a pet dragon,  a starship capable of light speed, and the ability to transform into a shrew.  The permits for these have been issued exactly as many times as a open carry permit.



changemyoil66

Re: Legislature report on Hawaii's gun laws
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 01:07:55 PM »
the state also lets you have a pet dragon,  a starship capable of light speed, and the ability to transform into a shrew.  The permits for these have been issued exactly as many times as a open carry permit.

That's where you're wrong buddy.  I don't need a permit for a pet dragon or unicorn.  If not in the law, then I can do it. 

But Hawaii does have a law that allows women to be topless.  That is specifically in the books.