Didn't you try mine at the silhouette range a while back? 

I shoot my 17 and 34 pretty flat already.  I'll show you a video of some of my matches when we finally meet up for that happy hour beer.  When I first started with the red dot, I was concerned about how quickly I'd pick up the dot in the draw and between shots.  When I was shooting with the red dot more, I was getting to the point where there were similar times. I think I'm slower now since I've been shooting mostly irons lately.  I found the cadence drills really helped.  I was chatting with a shooting instructor when he was in the starting part of his learning curve with handgun/RDS combo and he had just gotten to the point where his shot times were equalizing.  His tips on the draw really helped me.  I just gotta get back to practicing consistently. 

The bad or aging eyes aspect was one that we were discussing this weekend.  Two of the shooters are about the same age as I am.  When I was at the pistol range, a father and son pair was shooting next to me and the father was going on about how he was having trouble focusing on the front sight with his bifocals.  I had him try my handgun with red dot and that really helped him.  So there are some "life practical" applications for sure. 

Forgot to add that the "dot dance" that people tend to notice when they first start out is something one of my shooting friends just can't seem to get over.  He can blow out a pastey at 5-7 yard pretty consistently in less than 5 shots with standard sights, but the dot dance messes him up pretty bad trying the same with red dot.  I definitely noticed the dot dance, but something that I have mostly gotten over.

it's like you have "Bob Vogel recoil control"

I've shot both as well.  First time was in one of those gun clubs in Waikiki.  I think my molars are still loose from that experience.   

maybe you should have a dentist look at that...

1) Im a fan of red dots. The pick up was way faster. At 7 yards, rapid fire grouping without was about basketball. With RD, it was jabone.

2) Im just to pake to buy a RD, mill slide, new holster, new irons.

3) Are red dots on pistols becoming the same as red dots on rifles? No one really uses irons on rifles anymore.

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1) Basketball?  You mean one of those pop-a-shot sized ones?   

2) Glock MOS and CZ P10c optic ready models are pretty "nicely" priced.  Yeah, the cost of the dot was a major hurdle for me, but there are budget friendly options, but take your chances on durability. 

3) I would say trend is similar to rifles in that it gained popularity in competition first and then wider to include LE/Mil.  And the latter, not true at all. 

I've seen many CCW with red dots.  Any advantage in a gun fight is a bonus. 

Maybe we'll all be safer once police departments start issuing them.   They can really stand to improve that ~30% hit ratio.

While the goal is for this setup to be my primary CCW, I have one without the RMR as well.  Just been focused on the one with the "new" tech.     And so far at a 3:1 round count ratio.

A buddy in a Houston PD issues Glock MOS to their officers if they qualify with them and of course they want the RMR.  That said, his dept is allowed to carry a very wide range of sidearms as long as they buy their own and they qualify with it. 

it's like you have "Bob Vogel recoil control"

Must be the "poof poof" ammo 

maybe you should have a dentist look at that...

My insurance only covers "real" MDs.   

Must be the "poof poof" ammo 
My insurance only covers "real" MDs.   

heads

Improved peripheral vision!
 :rofl:How long did "your" red dot last on that setup?   

actually, since the red dot is mounted on the barrel, which is fixed, and only the slide recoils (with the bolt), sofar, so good.  it's "only" the 44 Magnum, with the integral brake, actually pretty pleasant.  Although, tbh, I think I'm still under 500 rds.  now, the 50, that's painfully wicked.

maybe you should have a dentist look at that...

Know any good ones?

Know any good ones?

Can’t think of any... can you?

 

Didn't you try mine at the silhouette range a while back? 

I shoot my 17 and 34 pretty flat already.  I'll show you a video of some of my matches when we finally meet up for that happy hour beer.  When I first started with the red dot, I was concerned about how quickly I'd pick up the dot in the draw and between shots.  When I was shooting with the red dot more, I was getting to the point where there were similar times. I think I'm slower now since I've been shooting mostly irons lately.  I found the cadence drills really helped.  I was chatting with a shooting instructor when he was in the starting part of his learning curve with handgun/RDS combo and he had just gotten to the point where his shot times were equalizing.  His tips on the draw really helped me.  I just gotta get back to practicing consistently. 

The bad or aging eyes aspect was one that we were discussing this weekend.  Two of the shooters are about the same age as I am.  When I was at the pistol range, a father and son pair was shooting next to me and the father was going on about how he was having trouble focusing on the front sight with his bifocals.  I had him try my handgun with red dot and that really helped him.  So there are some "life practical" applications for sure. 

Forgot to add that the "dot dance" that people tend to notice when they first start out is something one of my shooting friends just can't seem to get over.  He can blow out a pastey at 5-7 yard pretty consistently in less than 5 shots with standard sights, but the dot dance messes him up pretty bad trying the same with red dot.  I definitely noticed the dot dance, but something that I have mostly gotten over.

No I didn’t try yours. I should have as I like my 17 and shoot it pretty well even tho I have been concentrating on my revolver a lot more lately.

I love red dots on my revolvers. I shoot them very well. I still am resisting having an RMR as a SD sight system. I think I need to have some time with one so I can see how I feel with one in hand. Old habits die hard. But I think the RMR’s make a lot of sense on Semi autos as a carry gun. Also, I think the compact and sub-compact autos with RMR’s and 10+ rounds of 9mm are becoming attractive to me as a carry gun. We’ll see as my eyes progressively get worse.

First I have to have more training.

I've shot both as well.  First time was in one of those gun clubs in Waikiki.  I think my molars are still loose from that experience.   

I think I prefer the 44 Mag in a revolver. I shoot my friend’s Model 29 really well. I’m not sure why I have a problem with the Eagle? It might be the grip. It didn’t really feel that great in my hand.

I was on the line at the SSF at the moment that it was decided to only allow one shot to be put in the Eagle at a time. That second shot was going off uncontrolled.

Know any good ones?

nope, sorry
the only one I know needs "more amps"

No I didn’t try yours. I should have as I like my 17 and shoot it pretty well even tho I have been concentrating on my revolver a lot more lately.

I love red dots on my revolvers. I shoot them very well. I still am resisting having an RMR as a SD sight system. I think I need to have some time with one so I can see how I feel with one in hand. Old habits die hard. But I think the RMR’s make a lot of sense on Semi autos as a carry gun. Also, I think the compact and sub-compact autos with RMR’s and 10+ rounds of 9mm are becoming attractive to me as a carry gun. We’ll see as my eyes progressively get worse.

First I have to have more training.

I agree, especially as I've noticed my eye sight changing more recently.  If you have time before you leave for AZ, I'd be happy to have you shoot my 17 and 19 with RDS.   

Good session on the pistol range today.  Was mostly to verify zero on the irons on my 19 after I noticed the front sight was loose, as well as get some practice with my 34.  Also spent some time shooting with my 17 and 19 with RDS.  I noticed that the brightness levels seemed lower somehow, even at the highest setting.  It was overcast today and found that I had the RMR at the highest setting on both guns.  Before today, I think I had the on two below the max brightness setting.  I had been doing a bunch more dry fire indoors lately, but I also shot the 19 with RMR this past weekend in the action bays and I don't think the dot was on the highest setting.  Not a big deal either way, just something I noticed. 

Another thing I noticed is that I found myself creeping into older shooting habits, namely with my head craned more forward and eyes in a "looking up" position.  When I adjusted to what I should have been doing, with a more neutral head position where my eyes are also neutral, I found that helped both picking up the dot in between shots as well as my groups tightened up. 

Once again seeing more guns with RDS at the range. 

I agree, especially as I've noticed my eye sight changing more recently.  If you have time before you leave for AZ, I'd be happy to have you shoot my 17 and 19 with RDS.   

Thank you for the invite. You may regret making the offer as I will try and take you up on it!!! 

Can you co-witness your iron sights thru the RDS if the battery dies? I saw the new Hellcat and between the low cut in the slide and the slightly higher irons co-witnessing was a snap. That is something I want if I go to an RDS on a carry gun.

Thank you for the invite. You may regret making the offer as I will try and take you up on it!!! 

Can you co-witness your iron sights thru the RDS if the battery dies? I saw the new Hellcat and between the low cut in the slide and the slightly higher irons co-witnessing was a snap. That is something I want if I go to an RDS on a carry gun.

Well, you have my number. And we still need to get that happy hour beer. 🤔

Regarding backup sights, most go with suppressor height sights with RDS, say the 0.35”-0.4” range for Glocks. I have one set of Trijicon and another set of ZEV. I also think various OEM slide models (Glock MOS) and aftermarket slides (ZEV, Agency, ATEI, et ) have slightly varying depth of cuts, but seems like all go along well suppressor height sights. The sights on my ZEV slide has the iron sights slightly lower in the window than the 19.

Shot the 17 with ZEV RDS slide this past weekend in a wet and rainy training day.  I had been doing more dry practice lately with the RDS handguns and wanted to see how I've improved (or not  ) in speed picking up the dot and tracking the dot better in multiple shots.  Overall was happy with both, but also noticed that a couple other aspects "needed work". 

Regarding picking up the dot quicker on the draw, I have been doing a bunch more dry practice working on both speeding up the draw and picking up the dot and breaking a shot.  There were some drills that we shot that were perfect for that.  Good news is that I was picking up the dot quicker, but bad was that in review of the video after, I was slowing the draw in the last 4-6" before extension.  I think recent issues in picking up the dot on the draw had been because I had been doing a lot of shooting with my CZ75 lately, which has a distinctly different grip angle as Glock.  Not an excuse, but more observation.  Doing more dry fire with the 17 and 19 with RDS lately has helped.  Then regarding draw speed, was concentrating on firming up my grip and "vice action" for shooting flatter.  Upon review of video on my draw, I was slowing down the gun maybe 4-6" before extension.  Something I noticed as "not smooth" and an instructor friend picked up on as well.  Since the strings of fire when I was taking the video was draw and shoot multiple, I believe I was initiating the grip pressure and vice action before full extension and the muscle tension slowed things down.  I did more dry practice another day and noticed that if I started the pressure early, it definitely slowed things down.  Something that I'll have to work on.

Regarding tracking the dot better in multiple shots, I was trying a tip to keep the dot in the lower portion of the RDS window.  That that would allow a little more forgiveness in the dot leaving the top of the window.  I can shoot the 17 pretty flat as is, but there are times that I do notice the dot disappear and reappear from the 12 o'clock.  That's particularly when doing multiple target transitions.  My habit is to center the dot in the window, like with rifle RDS.  The iron sights on my 17 slide is quite low in the window, so that was easier.  However, the iron sights on my 19 slide is much higher, so having the dot in say the lower 1/3 of the window puts the dot on the front sight blade.  I noticed this when dry firing and I wondered if it would bother me.  However, just like shooting rifle with RDS co-witnessed, I didn't seem to notice when shooting both eyes open.  Yeah, I did notice the dot being on the front sight here and there, but generally mostly saw the dot on the target. 

While I did notice some improvement on speeding up the draw and picking up the dot, when we started doing multiple targets, I noticed that I started missing some shots on target #1.  In strings of fire with 2 hits per target, I think I was getting too quick on the transition to target #2.  On missing the first shot on target #1,  I think I was either getting ahead of myself (not good grip on draw, yanking trigger, etc) or pushing things a bit too far and beyond my capabilities and ending up with a fast miss.  There was a competitive aspect to these drills, so while that made it fun, it led to many trying to push things to win and having fast misses. 

It was rainy pretty much all day and that always makes things interesting when shooting.  Didn't notice it much with regard to the RDS with water on the window.  There were definitely times when there were water droplets all over the inside and outside surfaces of the window and at times it would partially distort the view, but didn't really bother me.  I know in the past with shooting my LPVO in the rain I would notice that the droplets distorted things a bit, but not really with the handgun RDS.

Shooting one handed is one aspect where the RDS really helped.  Though for some reason it took slightly more time to pick up the dot shooting lefty at first, but that became smoother with some practice. 

Fun day on the range with the RDS handgun.  Now I'm considering (not that seriously) another handgun with RDS. 

Is there a reason why when using a red dot on a handgun compared to a rifle, it takes longer to pick up?  Are they designed differently and since the RDS on a handgun is much smaller, the tech isn't as forgiving as a RDS on a rifle?

Is there a reason why when using a red dot on a handgun compared to a rifle, it takes longer to pick up?  Are they designed differently and since the RDS on a handgun is much smaller, the tech isn't as forgiving as a RDS on a rifle?

A rifle's red dot is closer to your eye, so there's less space the dot can travel around before you pick it up.  Having a pistol arms length from the eye creates a larger "cone" of space for the dot to travel inside.

If you could always keep the pistol in the same eye-level plane and in the same left-to-right direction from the eye each time you bring the pistol up, there would be no difference.  Having a stock against your cheek and the rifle barrel parallel to the ground puts the sight in the same relative position from your eye each time.

I don't see this as a "type of sight" issue as much as a "rifles are easier to align/acquire the sights than pistols" issue.  It's one reason new shooters do much better on a rifle than a pistol for the most part.  Trying to align sights at arm's length vs. aligning them closer to the body makes it much harder to acquire AND keep on target when squeezing the trigger.

Is there a reason why when using a red dot on a handgun compared to a rifle, it takes longer to pick up?  Are they designed differently and since the RDS on a handgun is much smaller, the tech isn't as forgiving as a RDS on a rifle?

FJ gave you a pretty good response, but I'll add some of my perspective and experience.

The type of sight or technology isn't a big difference.  I've shot with the same red dots typically used on handguns on rifles (RMR, SRO, Deltapoint, etc) and they work great.  I've seen Aimpoint micros on handgun slides, but not common.  Assuming shooting both eyes open on rifle, RMR/SRO/Deltapoint/etc would be just fine on any of my rifles. 

Differences between rifle and handgun:
1) Points of contact.  You have more with a rifle and that greatly helps with consistency in the level and alignment of the axis of the gun.  Think how much more play you have with a handgun, particularly pivoting laterally in your hands, than with a rifle.  You also have the "anchor point" with the buttstock in your shoulder.

2) Reciprocating slide with handgun.  The red dot is moving along with the handgun's slide (assuming mount directly to the slide).  Combine that with muzzle flip, there's more going on with the red dot on the handgun.  Whereas the dot stays put, at least relative to the bore axis, with the rifle. 

3) One could argue that picking up the dot is no different than picking up the front sight.  That said, I know many very experienced and awesome shooters that have shot times slower with a RDS than iron sights.  Is it a matter of more dry practice?  More training?  Etc?  Yeah.  I also think part of it is openness to something new and sticking with it.  I have at least a couple of friends who are pretty good shooters with iron sights seem to have a closed mind when it comes to RDS on handguns.  While I can shoot my 17 pretty flat, I did notice that I was often waiting to reacquire the dot on subsequent shots and I "felt" that that was longer than with irons, but I never compared with a shot timer.  I think part of my mind expects the dot to be as stable as when I shoot a rifle, which as mentioned above just isn't the case.  No matter how good one is on recoil control. 

4) If I shot "poof poof" ammo like some here, I think picking up the dot in multiple shots would be easier, but that's another story.