NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally" (Read 4841 times)

changemyoil66

NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« on: April 14, 2019, 05:57:43 PM »
Along with everytown also.

So bump stocks, now this. Wonder what the DNC has on the tops at the NRA

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rpoL98

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2019, 08:52:09 PM »
wow, that is so disappointing.  I seriously miss Charlton Heston's iconic leadership.  They're just driving more folks to GOA and SAF.  Dana Loesch is pretty good, but doesn't seem to influence the organization enough.

punaperson

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2019, 06:31:01 AM »
Along with everytown also.

So bump stocks, now this. Wonder what the DNC has on the tops at the NRA
Link, please, to official statement.

changemyoil66

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2019, 09:24:12 AM »
Link, please, to official statement.

No recent official statement (Dec 2018), but they did mention funding for the risk protection orders in TX.  Hence "conditional".  I wish they came out and just said no like how the many Sheriff departments have.

But to be fair, they did help defeat some red flag bills in other states.  But at a time where gun grabbing is becoming more often, I would of liked them to officially state NO to all.

6716J

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2019, 10:13:57 AM »
Friend of mine wrote this in response to "Red Flag" laws...

When your state passes a "red flag" law, immediately form a group of people and file "red flag" complaints on every legislator, sheriff, and prosecutor in the state.

Clog the courts with the petitions, and we'll see what they REALLY think about due process.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

hvybarrels

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2019, 10:14:16 AM »
The problem is the American Legislative Exchange Council aka ALEC. They have a strong Security State anti-rights agenda and the NRA has to turn around and scratch some backs in order to get access to their money and influence. Lots of causes turn into a business and then forget what they are actually supposed to be doing. It happens to everyone from national political parties to Greenpeace and the Humane Society.

The only way to confront this is a leadership shake up and refocus, or start supporting other organizations that are more in line with our values.
The purpose of today's training is to defeat yesterday's understanding. -Miyamoto Musashi

eyeeatingfish

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2019, 10:11:56 PM »
Friend of mine wrote this in response to "Red Flag" laws...

When your state passes a "red flag" law, immediately form a group of people and file "red flag" complaints on every legislator, sheriff, and prosecutor in the state.

Clog the courts with the petitions, and we'll see what they REALLY think about due process.

Its a nice idea but it wouldn't work. The courts would pretty quickly recognize someone to be a vexatious litigant and your name would basically be rubbish in court from then on.

eyeeatingfish

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2019, 10:31:22 PM »
Along with everytown also.

So bump stocks, now this. Wonder what the DNC has on the tops at the NRA

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I am ok with "conditional" support for a red flag law. The concept itself is something that is valid but it is the implementation which makes or breaks it. When done right it could be an effective law, when done wrong it could be an ineffective law that abuses civil rights. Hence conditional support, if it is done the right way I would support it too, if it is done the wrong way I am against it.

hvybarrels

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 12:25:32 AM »
It's an unconstitutional tool for lazy cops who suck at their jobs

Edit:

"We got a report about this guy who might be a threat Chief. Should we investigate?"

"Nah just send in the swat team."
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 12:41:00 AM by hvybarrels »
The purpose of today's training is to defeat yesterday's understanding. -Miyamoto Musashi

changemyoil66

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2019, 09:17:59 AM »
I am ok with "conditional" support for a red flag law. The concept itself is something that is valid but it is the implementation which makes or breaks it. When done right it could be an effective law, when done wrong it could be an ineffective law that abuses civil rights. Hence conditional support, if it is done the right way I would support it too, if it is done the wrong way I am against it.

There have been a handful of situations where the cops just showed up at the guys door to confiscate guns.  Because due process was not followed, the guy felt his rights are being violated and a gun fight broke out.  Imagine the anger and frustration.  "Sir a complaint has been made, and we're here to take your guns".  Even if at the door, he addresses the complaint, the cops there are "under orders" to take his guns.

So the "right way" of implementing this type of law is to let the receiving party have their due process (day in court) to address any allegations.  And if after that the allegations are warranted, then and only then shall the person have to surrender firearms.

This type of lack of due process puts everyone at risk.  Not only the person, the PD responding, and neighbors if a gun fight does break out.  Bullets keep going until they hit something to stop them.  This is why many Sheriff's across the nation will and do not support this.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2019, 12:41:30 PM »
There have been a handful of situations where the cops just showed up at the guys door to confiscate guns.  Because due process was not followed, the guy felt his rights are being violated and a gun fight broke out.  Imagine the anger and frustration.  "Sir a complaint has been made, and we're here to take your guns".  Even if at the door, he addresses the complaint, the cops there are "under orders" to take his guns.

So the "right way" of implementing this type of law is to let the receiving party have their due process (day in court) to address any allegations.  And if after that the allegations are warranted, then and only then shall the person have to surrender firearms.

This type of lack of due process puts everyone at risk.  Not only the person, the PD responding, and neighbors if a gun fight does break out.  Bullets keep going until they hit something to stop them.  This is why many Sheriff's across the nation will and do not support this.

Not allowing due process before confiscation causes great hardships, especialling in states like HI. Even if the state's reason for confiscation is proven to be false or successfully defended against, the guns are not going to be immediately returned. The owner must go through the permit process, including the 2 week wait, and THEN must petition the court for an order to return them.

So, you're basically disarmed and not allowed to protect your life or home for the time it takes for the confiscation to be reversed.

You are also be out whatever costs of legal representation were incurred.

It would be better to allow the owner to store the weapons with a friend or relative, but our laws for handguns don't allow it.  FFLs aren't going to get in the middle of this can or worms.

The whole gun-hating system here is stacked against gun owners if/when you're accused of "looking risky".
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

changemyoil66

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2019, 01:16:28 PM »
Don't forget they would have to also enroll in RAPBACK.

As easy as the cops took it away, they should give them back.  Have owner sign receipt and verify serial number.  And that's it.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2019, 01:33:18 PM »
Don't forget they would have to also enroll in RAPBACK.

As easy as the cops took it away, they should give them back.  Have owner sign receipt and verify serial number.  And that's it.

In their world, giving guns back amounts to a "transfer", and it'd be irresponsible to give guns back to the owner who can no longer pass background checks or jump through all the transfer hoops.

And the court order thing has been posted on here before, where they had to pay their lawyer again to petition to court to amend their decision and include the order to return the firearms.

It's just another way they try to keep the law abiding citizen from having guns.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

eyeeatingfish

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 10:10:09 PM »
There have been a handful of situations where the cops just showed up at the guys door to confiscate guns.  Because due process was not followed, the guy felt his rights are being violated and a gun fight broke out.  Imagine the anger and frustration.  "Sir a complaint has been made, and we're here to take your guns".  Even if at the door, he addresses the complaint, the cops there are "under orders" to take his guns.

So the "right way" of implementing this type of law is to let the receiving party have their due process (day in court) to address any allegations.  And if after that the allegations are warranted, then and only then shall the person have to surrender firearms.

This type of lack of due process puts everyone at risk.  Not only the person, the PD responding, and neighbors if a gun fight does break out.  Bullets keep going until they hit something to stop them.  This is why many Sheriff's across the nation will and do not support this.

The due process aspect is exactly where the "conditionally" part of this lies for me. Done the wrong way it can be abusive to our rights.

The one problem of holding a hearing first and then confiscating the guns is that this could take too long. Remember that guy in Waikiki who had a lot of guns and looked like he was set to go on a Las Vegas style shooting spree? Now imagine a system where the court hearing happens first. Police get a report of this guy with his guns, they show up, find him to be mentally "off", and give him a penal summons to show up to court 2 days later. Maybe the guy calls in sick, maybe the officer or witness calls in sick and it gets postponed to the following week. This amount of time, along with knowing that authorities are aware of issues with him, might be all he needs to go on his killing spree before the courts can work.

Unfortunately sometimes time is of the essence and we all know the courts are not exactly known for quick action.

My personal position is that there must be a way for cops to take firearms immediately when there is good cause. The part where I support it conditionally is that the due process must be quick and have a higher level of proof. So when someone's guns are taken away the hearing should be within 72 hours (to allow for weekends) and the level of proof needed to take someone's firearms away for a longer period of time should be the preponderance of the evidence, not probably cause or reasonable suspicion. Also, you can't make the person re-wait for 2 more weeks for new permits to get their own guns bag, that is just ridiculous.

changemyoil66

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2019, 08:51:39 AM »
No red flag law in effect and a possible waikiki shooting stopped. IIRC he made plans on the net, thats how the feds tracked him down.

Red flag laws will do more harm than good. For now, there are stricter requirements, but how long b4 gun grabbers (DNC) use anything to begin consfiscation? Wait and see.

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zippz

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2019, 11:20:35 AM »
So when someone's guns are taken away the hearing should be within 72 hours (to allow for weekends) and the level of proof needed to take someone's firearms away for a longer period of time should be the preponderance of the evidence, not probably cause or reasonable suspicion.

There are already laws that can deal with these things right now, it's just the legislators, judges, and police don't want to do what has to be done.  They can already arrest and commit people with current laws like terroristic threatening and MH1 for mental cases to stop violent acts from happening.  If these people are such a threat to themselves or society then they should be kept out of society without bail or committed with a quick evaluation and court hearing to follow, then treatment/rehab until they are ready to go back into society.  Political correctness, laziness, and lack of funding by government officials is the problem.

Need more police on the streets and investigators instead of putting them in admin positions like firearms section, need more jail space, funding for the courts to expedite cases, and funding for rehab/treatment.

The problem with red flag laws are they are giving a criminal punishment through a civil process.  A 1 year protective order removing 2a rights is a criminal punishment given without a jury trial.  At the very least, the burden of proof should be clear and convincing/probable cause for the 14 day order and proof beyond a reasonable doubt for the 1 year order.  Preponderance of the evidence is only like 51% chance they're guilty versus not which is way to low to remove a civil right.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

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Flapp_Jackson

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2019, 11:31:58 AM »
The real problem with red flag laws is it's an attempt to prevent crime before it happens. It's an impossible proposition -- you can't know you prevented something that hasn't happened nor that had any likelihood of happening. Only if the person states a threat can you have any idea what is in their mind.

Taking guns is a preemptive punishment. It doesn't prevent a thing. It only creates a nightmare and expense for the person when getting their guns back. It also disarms the person for that period of time so self defense is more difficult.

Imagine a person who wants to do you harm, but they are reluctant because you own guns. Enter the Red Flag laws. One phone call complaint that you threatened to shoot someone, and the house is now clear of guns. Easy target.

If someone is truly a safety risk, and their 2A (and other civil) rights are going to be violated anyway, why not just toss the person in jail for 48 hours to "cool off" and be evaluated? That eliminates all risk of violence, gun and otherwise.


If only there were such laws before OJ picked up that gun.  Oh, wait! He used a knife to kill 2 people. Nothing to see there. Totally off topic. Guns are the problem.
It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.

zippz

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2019, 11:32:37 AM »
Also NRA has provided opposition testimony to Hawaiis red flag bills
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

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zippz

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2019, 11:35:39 AM »
If someone is truly a safety risk, and their 2A (and other civil) rights are going to be violated anyway, why not just toss the person in jail for 48 hours to "cool off" and be evaluated? That eliminates all risk of violence, gun and otherwise.

Seems government officials see the 2a as a second class right that shouldn't be there and was erroneously decided by SCOTUS.  More like a hobby or nutty movement.  They don't want to harm criminals and figure there's no harm in infringing 2a rights.
Join the Hawaii Firearms Coalition at www.hifico.org.  Hawaii's new non-profit gun rights organization focused on lobbying and grassroots activism.

Hawaii Shooting Calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=practicalmarksman.com_btllod1boifgpp8dcjnbnruhso%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=Pacific/Honolulu

ren

Re: NRA backs Red Flag law "conditionally"
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2019, 02:21:51 PM »
This red flag law will allow anyone to call HPD and say that the gun owner is a threat - then they show up at the door of said gun owner and takes all his/her firearms away? No court proceedings?
This sounds like SWATTING.
This smells like a big fat lawsuit opportunity. This is not a 2A issue this is also a 4A issue.