That makes sense. 

they don't have the right to own firearms, but have the right to collect welfare apparently.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Says "all men." 

People here (myself included) often assert that the Constitution does not grant rights, it protects rights.  It cannot be used to strip an "unalienable Right" even if it fails to explicitly protect it.

This is wrong.

Says "all men." 

People here (myself included) often assert that the Constitution does not grant rights, it protects rights.  It cannot be used to strip an "unalienable Right" even if it fails to explicitly protect it.

This is wrong.

Next you're gonna say they should be allowed to vote as well? Those  protected "rights" are denied when one becomes a felon. Since illegal immigrants are here illegally they should be treated like criminals with no rights guaranteed to them. Come into the country legally, pay taxes, then expect something back from the government.

Vote?  No.  That's a responsibility for citizens. 

Being allowed to defend yourself is not "expecting something back from the government."  It's something that all people, including felons, innately possess.

not to tread on non-american's rights but the constitution has a lot of "we' and "our." I'm pretty certain they ment for just Americans and not everyone in the world.

not to tread on non-american's rights but the constitution has a lot of "we' and "our." I'm pretty certain they ment for just Americans and not everyone in the world.

Nope....reread Tom's post on the preamble to the Constitution...or read the Federalist's papers.....they were talking about everyone.

Let's not confuse the issue of a god given right to protect yourself, and the priviliges of citizenship.
And there is some discussion that felons shouldn't be disbarred from owning firearms, especially non-violent ones. I believe that there was some legal issues over denying a felon the right to vote as well, based on the same concept. If you do your time you have fulfilled your debt to society.

As for illegal aliens having the right to own or possess the firearm, I disagree with the concept. The right to self defense is afforded to everyone. Now, that being said, possessing a firearm during the commission of a crime is illegal most places. So, mearly by being in the country illegally you are committing a crime......

Nope....reread Tom's post on the preamble to the Constitution...or read the Federalist's papers.....they were talking about everyone.

I agree with this. Though immigrants, especially illegal ones, definitely do not have all the rights US citizens have (voting for example) they share almost all of them. Being an alien, illegal or legal you still have the right to free speech, right against unreasonable search and seizure, etc. All of the bill of rights basically. Well except the 2nd amendment according to the courts. Keep in mind that just because there is no right to own a firearm does not mean that they cannot own one, it merely means that if the state so chooses to they can pass a law making firearm by illegal aliens illegal.
Not sure whether I agree with that sentiment or not, I will have to read the reasons given by the justices.

However if everyone is required to register their firearms and when an illegal alien tries to register his/her firearm, caught by computer checks and subsequently deported then well that is ok to me as anytime they have checks made on them and are found to be illegal they could be deported.

Nope....reread Tom's post on the preamble to the Constitution...or read the Federalist's papers.....they were talking about everyone.

Sure it's a nice sentiment but the truth of the matter is that it doesn't even apply to everyone within our borders (think diplomatic immunity and felons). So why should it apply to illegals (technically criminals) who are here illegally?

Being allowed to defend yourself is not "expecting something back from the government."  It's something that all people, including felons, innately possess.

Defending yourself and owning a firearm are two different things. I do not have a problem with them defending themselves when necessary. I do have a problem with them knowingly coming into the country illegally and expecting to have rights and especially wanting to own firearms. Their first action in this country was to commit a crime, and then they want guns? HELL NO. These people have already displayed their lack of morals to do things the right way and therefore no one should expect any of them are capable of being responsible gun owners. It's also possible that their attempts to purchase firearms are due to the influence of the cartels. There's just way too many issues with allowing ILLEGALS to own firearms.

However if everyone is required to register their firearms and when an illegal alien tries to register his/her firearm, caught by computer checks and subsequently deported then well that is ok to me as anytime they have checks made on them and are found to be illegal they could be deported.

I would never expect an illegal to register a firearm or do anything the right way for that matter.

I agree with this. Though immigrants, especially illegal ones, definitely do not have all the rights US citizens have (voting for example) they share almost all of them. Being an alien, illegal or legal you still have the right to free speech, right against unreasonable search and seizure, etc. All of the bill of rights basically. Well except the 2nd amendment according to the courts. Keep in mind that just because there is no right to own a firearm does not mean that they cannot own one, it merely means that if the state so chooses to they can pass a law making firearm by illegal aliens illegal.
Not sure whether I agree with that sentiment or not, I will have to read the reasons given by the justices.

However if everyone is required to register their firearms and when an illegal alien tries to register his/her firearm, caught by computer checks and subsequently deported then well that is ok to me as anytime they have checks made on them and are found to be illegal they could be deported.

And that is one of the problems with immigration in this country.  Everyone has the idea that it's insanely difficult to get a green card; it isn't.  The problem isn't that it's too hard to get legal, the problem is that it's too easy to stay illegal.  If we'd stop treating them like full-blown citizens who just need a simple scrap of paper and start treating them like criminal trespassers (which is what they are), this will become a non-issue as the illegals either become legal or get deported. 

Just to bring up an argument I usually see in these kind of discussions.....what about all the immigrants that passed the statue of liberty on a boat with nothing but a sack of clothes over their shoulder and $0.72 in their pocket? Did the Constitution apply to them or no? Were their "god-given" rights protected by our government, or no? Not to mention that this country was built on the backs of immigrants.

Personally, I believe it applies to immigrants and citizens.

I would never expect an illegal to register a firearm or do anything the right way for that matter.

Why? They aren't all hardened criminals. Stay a day late on your visa, guess what you are an illegal alien. Even if you chose to sneak into America it does not mean you are going about being some immoral person.

And that is one of the problems with immigration in this country.  Everyone has the idea that it's insanely difficult to get a green card; it isn't.  The problem isn't that it's too hard to get legal, the problem is that it's too easy to stay illegal.  If we'd stop treating them like full-blown citizens who just need a simple scrap of paper and start treating them like criminal trespassers (which is what they are), this will become a non-issue as the illegals either become legal or get deported.

Do you mean programs that end up supporting illegal aliens or do you mean by illegal aliens having rights under the bill of rights? If you mean the bill of rights then you run into a problem. Even if illegal aliens don't have the right to free speech, for example, you cannot stop someone from engaging in free speech because you cannot require someone to prove their citizenship before engaging in free speech.
However if you were referring to programs like free welfare for illegal aliens then I agree with you.

Why? They aren't all hardened criminals. Stay a day late on your visa, guess what you are an illegal alien. Even if you chose to sneak into America it does not mean you are going about being some immoral person.

The very nature of sneaking into the country is immoral and illegal. They won't even go through the paperwork to get into the country. Why would you expect them to do anything else that they should do? Besides, they're already trying to hide so they don't get deported. How could you expect them to present themselves to any government establishment, let alone a police station with a firearm?

The very nature of sneaking into the country is immoral and illegal. They won't even go through the paperwork to get into the country.

So, to be clear, fleeing from a place where you fear for your life because corruption and drug cartels are the law of the land is immoral?  Wanting a little safety and security for themselves and their families, wanting to sleep at night without the threat of bullets ripping through their walls, or to live in a place where there is a future for their children besides drug pusher or prostitute, is immoral?  Violating a law because you might not have the skills or the time necessary to do it correctly when the choice is to continue living in a high-risk environment, is immoral? 

Yes to all of the above.

Is stealing from your neighbors, because your father is in jail and your mother has cancer and your six younger siblings are starving, immoral? Add other exaggerated examples.

It sucks, but illegal is illegal. Lesser of two evils, etc.

So, to be clear, fleeing from a place where you fear for your life because corruption and drug cartels are the law of the land is immoral?  Wanting a little safety and security for themselves and their families, wanting to sleep at night without the threat of bullets ripping through their walls, or to live in a place where there is a future for their children besides drug pusher or prostitute, is immoral?  Violating a law because you might not have the skills or the time necessary to do it correctly when the choice is to continue living in a high-risk environment, is immoral?

You make it sound as though the entire country of Mexico is like a real world version of Grand Theft Auto and their only option out of that situation is to cross the border. Sure, there are some places in Mexico that you definitely do not want to visit, but the whole country isn't like that. They can go to other cities and then work at immigrating legally if they desire to leave Mexico. On top of that, illegally crossing the border ain't so simple, there's a desert in the way. You don't just pack up and leave one day, that's how you get killed by the elements. It takes planning, prep work, finding a guide, etc. If they spent that same time and effort toward legal entry they'd be here already.

Dregs already answered the other questions.

Sure it's a nice sentiment but the truth of the matter is that it doesn't even apply to everyone within our borders (think diplomatic immunity and felons). So why should it apply to illegals (technically criminals) who are here illegally?

It does, technically, apply to everyone within our boarders. If the manner in which the law is applied results in an injustice to a particulat set of individuals, then that is the issue that needs to be addressed. As for the felons, see my prior response.

Defending yourself and owning a firearm are two different things. I do not have a problem with them defending themselves when necessary. I do have a problem with them knowingly coming into the country illegally and expecting to have rights and especially wanting to own firearms. Their first action in this country was to commit a crime, and then they want guns? HELL NO. These people have already displayed their lack of morals to do things the right way and therefore no one should expect any of them are capable of being responsible gun owners. It's also possible that their attempts to purchase firearms are due to the influence of the cartels. There's just way too many issues with allowing ILLEGALS to own firearms.
I would never expect an illegal to register a firearm or do anything the right way for that matter.

Wow, you sound a little like some of the anti-gun liberals that want to deny you the opportunity to have/carry a firearm....Remove the reference to illegal aliens and doesn't your arguement sound a lot like something the Brady group would say? I mean really, it's OK to defend yourself, but just not with a gun??

I have a problem with the illegal aliens and the various problems they cause. But, I also think that it has been the failure of the Federal government that has magnified the problem to the point where it is nearly impossible for some of the "legitimate" aliens who would prefer to do the right thing. It is a complicated issue with no clear global solution, but one thing is clear; they keep coming because people keep hiring them. Address that issue and you're off to a good start on controling the other issues.