Maunakea TMT Protests (Read 284255 times)

changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2019, 02:41:12 PM »
Or they could just hire John the waiter for $40K a year.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2019, 02:45:55 PM »
You are correct.  But you really have no idea how difficult mirror segment exchange really is.
also mirrors are "cleaned" with a CO2 snow not removed.  The summit is very dirty.
When removed segments are stripped and re-coated.
You can't just use Windex.
ELT and the proposed JELT ( bet you didn't know about that one!) use the same technologies as
TMT and the Kecks.
Coatings are selected on Reflectivity and Emissivity.
You want to reflect as many photons as possible, but at the same time add as little heat
Photons as possible.  Most astronomy is done in the Infra red( heat).
Aluminum  is the metal of choice, or really is the one they are stuck with.

I think if they can solve the problems, James Web will be the best
telescope we can ever have.  Perhaps put up two or three.

What about my comments leads you to that conclusion?  I've read about the process and the products used to clean and increase reflectivity of mirror segments. It's exactly why they only remove 2 segments per day -- time-consuming process.  They replace the mirror segments with blank panels while cleaning and re-coating.

You need to stop making every reply you post about me.  Trying to get under my skin isn't a productive, nor sane, hobby.

Yes, I already know about the JELT.  When you say "technologies," I assume you're referring to mirror design.

Europe is paying for the ELT, costing over 1.1B Euros.  If you have a billion Euros burning a whole in your pocket, feel free to fund another.   :thumbsup:

With other priorities here on Earth, it's difficult to appropriate that much to multiple observatories that offer no improvements over existing.  Technology and processes improve and become cheaper over time.  In 25 more years, who knows what new limits for observatory design, construction and capabilities will be.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2019, 03:15:27 PM »
What about my comments leads you to that conclusion?  I've read about the process and the products used to clean and increase reflectivity of mirror segments. It's exactly why they only remove 2 segments per day -- time-consuming process.  They replace the mirror segments with blank panels while cleaning and re-coating.

You need to stop making every reply you post about me.  Trying to get under my skin isn't a productive, nor sane, hobby.

Yes, I already know about the JELT.  When you say "technologies," I assume you're referring to mirror design.

Europe is paying for the ELT, costing over 1.1B Euros.  If you have a billion Euros burning a whole in your pocket, feel free to fund another.   :thumbsup:

With other priorities here on Earth, it's difficult to appropriate that much to multiple observatories that offer no improvements over existing.  Technology and processes improve and become cheaper over time.  In 25 more years, who knows what new limits for observatory design, construction and capabilities will be.
You are correct this is not productive.
Not trying to get "under your skin",
just educate people reading this
what a big deal these tools are, or how
useless.
TMT is a big deal. ELT is a big deal.
James Web is a big deal.
This is two out of two you win.
Aloha.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2019, 04:09:10 PM »
You are correct this is not productive.
Not trying to get "under your skin",
just educate people reading this
what a big deal these tools are, or how
useless.
TMT is a big deal. ELT is a big deal.
James Web is a big deal.
This is two out of two you win.
Aloha.

Glad one of us is keeping score.  As long as it's 2-0, I'm good with it.   :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2019, 06:33:00 PM »
Just watched 6PM news.  Estimates of crowd there is now 2000.  Josh Green is definitely going to run for Gov after Ige's term is over.  So obvious he positioning himself for that.  Sad thing, he will probably get elected.  Hopefully I will be living on the mainland by then.
Happily living in Puna

ren

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2019, 07:20:13 PM »
Just watched 6PM news.  Estimates of crowd there is now 2000.  Josh Green is definitely going to run for Gov after Ige's term is over.  So obvious he positioning himself for that.  Sad thing, he will probably get elected.  Hopefully I will be living on the mainland by then.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/22/safe-loved-lieutenant-governor-visits-mauna-kea-week-after-tmt-protests-begin/

“I’m here to make sure people are OK,” Green said. “I’m not here for a political statement.”

“One project can’t be allowed to disrupt the fabric of our state’s ohana,” Green told Hawaii News Now. “So if there can’t be a brokered peace that prevents that, then the TMT would have to move on.”

So what statement is true Mr. Green?
With all the fuss about a telescope project let them leave and show the world how Hawaii is about "Aloha". Let's screw over ourselves and keep us in a flat 2 dimensional economy. We are a state of Ainokea, green bottles and govt. handouts.

Mr. Green lives in a self-righteous fantasy land of prescription housing  :crazy:. It seems that every political statement he has made is backed up by his position as a medical doctor. Its a very honorable position indeed but a very narrow focused perception of life.
If anyone is going to confiscate guns this guy will do it as Governor. He won't give a shit about our 2A rights.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:26:25 PM by ren »
Deeds Not Words

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2019, 08:01:35 PM »
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/22/safe-loved-lieutenant-governor-visits-mauna-kea-week-after-tmt-protests-begin/

If anyone is going to confiscate guns this guy will do it as Governor. He won't give a shit about our 2A rights.

We can go exercise our 1A rights like the TMT protesters.  Block Washington Place driveway and have big rally in Waikiki like they did.  Wear empty handgun holsters and use your rifle case to carry your signs and sign posts.

BTW, he did make the stupid statement that all weapons should be removed from the mountain.  Ok, all you cops and sheriffs, hand them over, guns, batons, pepper spray, knives and tasers.
Happily living in Puna

mrgaf

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2019, 09:10:11 PM »
Trump should come out in support of the protesters.  That would throw Democrats into full insane meltdown mode.  It would be hilarious.

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: good one!
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2019, 10:37:19 AM »
We can go exercise our 1A rights like the TMT protesters.  Block Washington Place driveway and have big rally in Waikiki like they did.  Wear empty handgun holsters and use your rifle case to carry your signs and sign posts.

BTW, he did make the stupid statement that all weapons should be removed from the mountain.  Ok, all you cops and sheriffs, hand them over, guns, batons, pepper spray, knives and tasers.

Fuck em.  The mountain is my new place of sojourn.  Just gotta carry pillow with me everywhere I go so I can just lay down and claim sojourn.

Ige dropped the ball by allowing them to block the road from day 1.  New president is being set.  And guaranns morons will vote for Green then complain later when he messes up our state just like Ige.

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2019, 11:35:46 AM »
Fuck em.  The mountain is my new place of sojourn.  Just gotta carry pillow with me everywhere I go so I can just lay down and claim sojourn.

Ige dropped the ball by allowing them to block the road from day 1.  New president is being set.  And guaranns morons will vote for Green then complain later when he messes up our state just like Ige.
Take Mana road just outside of Waimea or Kilohana check in station road.
4WD ONLY! Will get you at the base of Hale Pohako.
This is way past the police blockade.
Summit is easy from there.

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2019, 11:56:05 AM »
Take Mana road just outside of Waimea or Kilohana check in station road.
4WD ONLY! Will get you at the base of Hale Pohako.
This is way past the police blockade.
Summit is easy from there.

Eh, no give away BI secrets.
Happily living in Puna

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2019, 12:14:17 PM »
Hilo Circuit Judge Greg Nakamura today denied a petition for a temporary restraining order to halt construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope

https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2019/07/23/hawaii-news/honolulu-police-return-to-oahu/?HTH=4a1254cc52bed352f537f369b6f18ea7a3ea7c49

Gee, another court decision in favor of TMT building proceeding. Add that to the long list of other court and regulatory affirmations of TMT.

But what difference does that make? A mob of a few hundred superstitious racists can overrule the entire impotent Democrat socialist government, including law enforcement. Why even have bothered spending the last 10 years meeting all the "requirements" to build? Why not 10 years ago just ask a handful (maybe, maybe, one percent of the population of the state) of superstitious racists having a particular genetic profile if they would allow the project? Woulda saved 10 years and millions of dollars. The cowardly capitulating Democrats (Ige, Green, Lyin' Harry, Tulsi, Kahele, David, etc., etc., etc.) could have just said up front... we will obey the will of the racist minority no matter what the courts and all other legal entities decide... "Just tell us what to do and we'll bow down and kiss your feet, o holy wise ones."

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2019, 12:19:33 PM »
Eh, no give away BI secrets.
If they were BI people they'd already know this.
There is another way, I did not mention. Never tried it but I know where the start is.
Gets you to the 12,000 foot level.
Beauty of it all, is if you aren't BI you will get stuck
out in the middle of nowhere with some wild cattle,
pigs, or angry Hawaiian poachers.
Aloha.

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2019, 12:24:44 PM »
Hilo Circuit Judge Greg Nakamura today denied a petition for a temporary restraining order to halt construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope

https://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/2019/07/23/hawaii-news/honolulu-police-return-to-oahu/?HTH=4a1254cc52bed352f537f369b6f18ea7a3ea7c49

Gee, another court decision in favor of TMT building proceeding. Add that to the long list of other court and regulatory affirmations of TMT.

But what difference does that make? A mob of a few hundred superstitious racists can overrule the entire impotent Democrat socialist government, including law enforcement. Why even have bothered spending the last 10 years meeting all the "requirements" to build? Why not 10 years ago just ask a handful (maybe, maybe, one percent of the population of the state) of superstitious racists having a particular genetic profile if they would allow the project? Woulda saved 10 years and millions of dollars. The cowardly capitulating Democrats (Ige, Green, Lyin' Harry, Tulsi, Kahele, David, etc., etc., etc.) could have just said up front... we will obey the will of the racist minority no matter what the courts and all other legal entities decide... "Just tell us what to do and we'll bow down and kiss your feet, o holy wise ones."
I think I said this earlier, but they have achieved one of their goals
to shut down the mountain.
Hawaii is a pretty sorry place as it is run run by a single party
for the party and by the party.
Please forgive me if I don't comply.

changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2019, 12:37:00 PM »
How come they don't just clear the roads, but allow who ever wants to protest along the side of the road allowed?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2019, 12:44:04 PM »
How come they don't just clear the roads, but allow who ever wants to protest along the side of the road allowed?

What if 1000 TMT supporters showed up and created a gauntlet style path for the construction vehicles, blocking the road-blockers from the roadway?

If the same tactic used by the protestors are used against them, they have no high ground in the debate.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2019, 01:27:42 PM »
How come they don't just clear the roads, but allow who ever wants to protest along the side of the road allowed?
If by "they" you are referring to Ige, Lyin' Harry Kim, and police chief Ferreira: because they are chickenshit racist-sympathizers.

Kuleana

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2019, 01:40:58 PM »
A mob of a few hundred superstitious racists can overrule the entire impotent Democrat socialist government, including law enforcement. ... Why not 10 years ago just ask a handful (maybe, maybe, one percent of the population of the state) of superstitious racists having a particular genetic profile if they would allow the project? ...

How do you know the few hundred or so people you referenced, who are in opposition to TMT, are superstitious racists?  Have you recently gone to Mauna Kea and talked to those people?

Are you not aware opposition to TMT is coming from people from all different socio-economic, educational, and professional backgrounds who are not racist?

changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2019, 01:50:18 PM »
If by "they" you are referring to Ige, Lyin' Harry Kim, and police chief Ferreira: because they are chickenshit racist-sympathizers.

Those guys wouldn't do anything.  It would be LE who would.  And if given orders, they would "just do their job".

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2019, 03:37:45 PM »
How do you know the few hundred or so people you referenced, who are in opposition to TMT, are superstitious racists?  Have you recently gone to Mauna Kea and talked to those people?

Are you not aware opposition to TMT is coming from people from all different socio-economic, educational, and professional backgrounds who are not racist?

Why would I have to "go to Mauna Kea and talk" to them to know what those people believe? Have you gone to Mauna Kea and talked to those people? Have you talked to all the people you claim oppose the TMT and are not racist? I didn't think so. But you still make statement about what they believe. I have the same capacity.

The criminals there breaking the law have made many public statements, on the record, unless you want to claim that those are all fake news and doctored videos. From many of their comments it's clear they assert a belief in supernatural entities and/or events for which there is absolutely no objective evidence at all. That's what I call superstition. That's their whole basis for their claim that that geological structure is "sacred" and therefore must not be defiled. They have no such claims about the "'aina" they lease for millions of dollars per year to Target, WalMart, Home Depot, Safeway, etc., so they apparently claim to have some ability to distinguish the sacred land from the profane land used for capitalistic profit. I asked the other day for someone to provide a detailed map of the whole island depicting exactly where the boundaries are between the sacred land and the land one inch on the other side of that boundary that is profane and may be used to profit from by leasing to non-hawaiian corporations. So far no one has provided such a map. If you have one, I'd like to see it. I'd also like to know who drew the boundaries, how they determined those were the correct boundaries, and if everyone else who claims to have supernatural experiences, including the ability to detect the sacred, all agree that those are the correct boundaries.

Anyone (likely at least some of the people up there don't fit this definition, but those that speak publicly on the subject certainly do) who claims they have a right or privilege based upon some particular genetic profile (aka "blood quantum") that exceeds the rights or privileges of people not having the same genetic profile, is, by definition racist. They're claiming their "race" entitles them to something more than people who are not of that "race". And that's exactly what those people are claiming. All the legal hoops have been successfully navigated by TMT. All the legal maneuvers by the superstitious racists have failed. Now they claim the superlegal right to break the law because of their genetic profile, making them above the law that would apply to anyone else. Anyone here really think that if a group of 2A open carry advocates blocked any public street because our right to carry is obviously violated by the state/counties of Hawaii that we'd still be sitting in the street 9 days later? We'd be removed, arrested, and possibly jailed within 10 minutes. I don't see how anyone could seriously claim that what is happening, allowing them to continue to violate the law, could be anything but preferential treatment based upon their claimed "race" and their claimed victimhood as such.

A poll (https://www.scribd.com/document/374711098/The-Hawaii-Poll-March-2018-TMT#download&from_embed) showed that, among voters, the total public favors the TMT by 77%, to 15% oppose, to 7% undecided. Among people who identified as Hawaiian it was 72% support, 23% oppose, 5% undecided. If you have a more recent poll, or one with a better methodology, please share it with us.