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Maunakea TMT Protests (Read 272968 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2019, 10:27:02 PM »
Quote from: eyeeatingfish on July 23, 2019, 10:18:51 PM
They haven't been up on the mountain protesting for 10 years. They filed suits in court which is the legal way to fight this type of thing so I wouldn't really consider that ongoing protest.

*** They didn't have any reason to protest on the mountain before construction began. Why block roads 6 years before the trucks start bringing in materials and workers?

I don't accept the premise that you cannot reason or convince them. They are protestors but not fanatics. We aren't in another country with a hostile enemy, the cops and government officials there are in many cases family with the protestors. The situation requires tact, not force.

*** So, you think you can convince someone that a sacred mountain being desecrated and harmed that they are wrong?  You've never strongly believed in anything, have you?

My personal suggestion would be to maintain that the new telescope will be built regardless of protests but as a measure of compromise a bill banning any future construction could be put through the legislature so the people can vote on it. There is almost always a way to reason with people.

*** Really?  How many times have I seen you post "we just have to agree to disagree?"  That's not coming to an agreement.  That's admitting there is going to be no agreement.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2019, 10:33:44 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on July 23, 2019, 10:27:02 PM
*** They didn't have any reason to protest on the mountain before construction began. Why block roads 6 years before the trucks start bringing in materials and workers?

Thats what I was saying.

Quote
*** So, you think you can convince someone that a sacred mountain being desecrated and harmed that they are wrong?  You've never strongly believed in anything, have you?

I don't like to give up before I try or make assumptions.

Quote
*** Really?  How many times have I seen you post "we just have to agree to disagree?"  That's not coming to an agreement.  That's admitting there is going to be no agreement.

I never said anything about changing their minds, I said reason with people. The goal isn't to change the mind of the protestors, it is to get them off the road. Note my suggestion, it wouldn't change their beliefs but could be an acceptable compromise for them.
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RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #162 on: July 24, 2019, 12:48:04 AM »
Quote from: eyeeatingfish on July 23, 2019, 10:33:44 PM

I never said anything about changing their minds, I said reason with people. The goal isn't to change the mind of the protestors, it is to get them off the road. Note my suggestion, it wouldn't change their beliefs but could be an acceptable compromise for them.

You cannot reason with the unreasonable and they should never have been allowed on the road in the first place.   The only acceptable “compromise “ for them would be that the TMT goes away.  It doesn’t matter to me one way or the other if the TMT gets built or not.  What bothers me is that a company that has spend all this time, huge amounts of money jumping through all the legal hoops, has gotten all the permits and granted permission by Hawaii's highest court, is being prevented from proceeding with their project by the ones that lost the court case and receiving no protection by LE or the government.

Like I said in the very beginning, this should have been nipped in the bud.  Protesters should never have been allowed to stand on the road, much less so to erect several tents on the road.   It is rapidly getting to the point where you will need 1000 or more LEOs to clear the road unless deadly force is used. 
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Happily living in Puna

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #163 on: July 24, 2019, 06:39:16 AM »
"Common ground"? "A way forward"? "Peaceful resolution"?

Camera-hog Kanuha: "Either the TMT goes up or it doesn't. We're not willing to compromise on that. We've made that very clear."

Any questions?
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oldfart

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #164 on: July 24, 2019, 06:52:36 AM »
Quote from: punaperson on July 24, 2019, 06:39:16 AM
"Common ground"? "A way forward"? "Peaceful resolution"?

Camera-hog Kanuha: "Either the TMT goes up or it doesn't. We're not willing to compromise on that. We've made that very clear."

Any questions?
===================
That guy strikes me as a loudmouth punk troublemaker. Those old folk in the tent should line up and take turns slapping his head.
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What, Me Worry?

Kuleana

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #165 on: July 24, 2019, 08:43:04 AM »
Quote from: oldfart on July 24, 2019, 06:52:36 AM
===================
That guy strikes me as a loudmouth punk troublemaker. Those old folk in the tent should line up and take turns slapping his head.

I totally agree with you; like I said, the people who are usually doing the talking to the media are not representative of all those in attendance.
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changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #166 on: July 24, 2019, 08:57:30 AM »
I don't think there can be a compromise.  It will either be built or it wont and TMT will sue HI for the bill.

Even if they add in later a law that prevents future scopes from being built, we know that maintenance will have to be done and what if there is damage so bad that the entire scope needs to be replaced?  The way our law makers write bills, I won't be surprised if there are many gray areas.  And we will go thru this again 10-20 years later.  Or even sooner if some guy has the bright idea of fire bombing the building.

On a side note, I heard that Green visits the outer islands and helps with the homeless by medical treatments.  Can anyone confirm?
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RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #167 on: July 24, 2019, 09:07:47 AM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on July 24, 2019, 08:57:30 AM
I don't think there can be a compromise.  It will either be built or it wont and TMT will sue HI for the bill.

On a side note, I heard that Green visits the outer islands and helps with the homeless by medical treatments.  Can anyone confirm?

Rail contractors get paid for delays, so precedent has been established in that case.

Maybe Dr Green can tell me what causes my ass to twitch when he opens his mouth.
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Happily living in Puna

changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #168 on: July 24, 2019, 09:09:08 AM »
Quote from: RSN172 on July 24, 2019, 09:07:47 AM


Maybe Dr Green can tell me what causes my ass to twitch when he opens his mouth.

Response: "It's because I'm coming for your guns"
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macsak

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #169 on: July 24, 2019, 09:13:08 AM »
Quote from: RSN172 on July 24, 2019, 09:07:47 AM
Maybe Dr Green can tell me what causes my ass to twitch when he opens his mouth.

because he's a fucking socialist
he hides behind the MD thing, but it's all a front
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Rocky

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #170 on: July 24, 2019, 10:32:42 AM »
Quote from: Heavies on July 23, 2019, 05:07:09 PM

    Let me say I am not opposed to research and discovery, and not opposed to the TMT in itself, but in the big picture, there is no significant reason to fight the indigenous people of Hawaii over a stupid ass telescope.  I say respect that.  Who is anyone else to say otherwise?

 
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on July 23, 2019, 05:16:37 PM

The indigenous people of Hawaii are NO DIFFERENT than any other resident. We are all CITIZENS of the state, and CITIZENS of the US.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on July 23, 2019, 05:46:44 PM
You used the phrase "indigenous people of Hawaii."

Explain how that isn't "Hawaiian or of Hawaiian decent".

Sorry boy's, there is NOTHING indigenous in Hawaii.
EVERYTHING came here.   :geekdanc:
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“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #171 on: July 24, 2019, 10:40:32 AM »
Quote from: Rocky on July 24, 2019, 10:32:42 AM

Sorry boy's, there is NOTHING indigenous in Hawaii.
EVERYTHING came here.   :geekdanc:
I think "indigenous", in this or any context re humans (versus plants and animals), means "the most recent invasive wave/force to have taken over and controlled a particular geographical area, often by committing genocide on the previous inhabitants, prior to contact with european civilization".
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Heavies

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #172 on: July 24, 2019, 10:50:23 AM »
Quote from: changemyoil66 on July 24, 2019, 08:57:30 AM
I don't think there can be a compromise.  It will either be built or it wont and TMT will sue HI for the bill.

Even if they add in later a law that prevents future scopes from being built, we know that maintenance will have to be done and what if there is damage so bad that the entire scope needs to be replaced?  The way our law makers write bills, I won't be surprised if there are many gray areas.  And we will go thru this again 10-20 years later.  Or even sooner if some guy has the bright idea of fire bombing the building.

On a side note, I heard that Green visits the outer islands and helps with the homeless by medical treatments.  Can anyone confirm?

I can confirm he hates 2A, and probably any other Right and liberty when it suits him.
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drck1000

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #173 on: July 24, 2019, 12:52:48 PM »
Quote from: Kuleana on July 24, 2019, 08:43:04 AM
I totally agree with you; like I said, the people who are usually doing the talking to the media are not representative of all those in attendance.
From my experience in community outreach for DOT projects, this is very much what I’ve seen.
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changemyoil66

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #174 on: July 24, 2019, 01:02:54 PM »
Quote from: macsak on July 24, 2019, 09:13:08 AM
because he's a fucking socialist
he hides behind the MD thing, but it's all a front

Well he is now the government and if he's providing free treatment to homeless, then yes he is practicing socialism (government providing care).

Someone hating on the MD title. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #175 on: July 24, 2019, 03:38:01 PM »
Well Ige went up Maunakea to talk to the protesters who welcomed him with hugs.  So much love and aloha bs.  He named or appointed Harry Kim as the lead man for negotiating with the illegal squatters.  Very smooth Gov, good job.  Nice way to rid yourself of responsibility.  Gutless asshole.

I don’t think the TMT will get built.  Warning to all big businesses who may think of opening something here.  No come.  No waste your time.
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Happily living in Puna

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #176 on: July 24, 2019, 04:13:58 PM »
What cop is gonna go move this guy out of the way?



Actor Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, center, greets community leader Pua Case as opposition leader Kaho'okahi Kanuha watches at far left during a visit to the protest site blocking the construction of the TMT telescope on Wednesday, July 24, 2019, at the base of Mauna Kea on Hawaii Island. (Jamm Aquino/Honolulu Star-Advertiser via AP)
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zippz

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #177 on: July 24, 2019, 04:15:28 PM »
The TMT opponents should've voted for Tupola who is very publicly opposed to TMT.  Looks like most of the opponents voted for Ige or didn't vote at all
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punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #178 on: July 24, 2019, 04:15:48 PM »
Gee, I wonder what sort of "resolution" we'll be seeing from Lyin' Harry Kim?

“We have made the Hawaiians feel like strangers in their own land,” Kim said.

Here, plain as day, the Democrat socialists reveal the crux of the issue in their warped deluded and delusional belief that this is not a state of the United States of America, but some far flung outlier that belongs to some group of a particular genetic code who not only own the place, but have special status requiring them to be treated as above the laws that apply to all other citizens.

This place isn't any more "their own land" than it is every other single legal citizen's land. One person, one vote... but no, not here... not when obviously racist policy is implemented by the Democrat socialists.
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ren

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #179 on: July 24, 2019, 07:15:48 PM »
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/25/telescope-employees-find-future-uncertain-protest-blocks-access-mauna-kea/

killing jobs



“With the emotions going on on the summit, it makes it difficult … to even function just in the community itself," said Ivan Look, operation manager of the Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope.

"Even neighbors, we’re all kind of thinking different things, so it’s uncomfortable I guess.”

Look, a Kamehameha Schools graduate, is concerned that if protesters stop TMT they might try to get rid of the other observatories, too.

“This is our livelihood. This is work,” he said. “I went to school to be an engineer. And it was hard for me to find work right away because Hawaii we don’t really have engineering, exciting things going on.”
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