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Hawaiian sovereignty (Read 4222 times)

zippz

Hawaiian sovereignty
« on: July 29, 2019, 04:24:18 PM »
So I get there's an issue with the US overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom by force.  But I see King Kamehameha essentially do the same thing.  Each island was its own sovereign kingdom, a sovereign nation.  The nations of Oahu, Kauai, and Maui.  Was King Kamehameha a unifier or did he illegally overthrow the other kingdoms by force?

Yes I know Kauai surrendered, but it was still through the threatened use of force.
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ren

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2019, 04:32:45 PM »
oh boy....
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Deeds Not Words

macsak

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2019, 04:33:40 PM »
Quote from: zippz on July 29, 2019, 04:24:18 PM
So I get there's an issue with the US overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom by force.  But I see King Kamehameha essentially do the same thing.  Each island was its own sovereign kingdom, a sovereign nation.  The nations of Oahu, Kauai, and Maui.  Was King Kamehameha a unifier or did he illegally overthrow the other kingdoms by force?

Yes I know Kauai surrendered, but it was still through the threatened use of force.

tick tick tick
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ren

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2019, 04:39:12 PM »
I think this is like the "n" word where it is OK for another black person to call another black person the "n" word.
But if a white person call a black person the "n" word it is racist.
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Deeds Not Words

Kuleana

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2019, 04:49:50 PM »
Quote from: zippz on July 29, 2019, 04:24:18 PM
So I get there's an issue with the US overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom by force.  But I see King Kamehameha essentially do the same thing.  Each island was its own sovereign kingdom, a sovereign nation.  The nations of Oahu, Kauai, and Maui.  Was King Kamehameha a unifier or did he illegally overthrow the other kingdoms by force?

Yes I know Kauai surrendered, but it was still through the threatened use of force.


Your interpretation about the use of force by Kamehameha I is correct.

The key issue though was all those island kingdoms were not recognized by the international community; hence, the rules that govern war and occupation do not apply to them, similarly to the Native American Indian tribes of the US and Canada today.  For example, you never hear the Sioux, Mohawk, or Apache tribes making the legal argument that the US or Canada is occupying their nation in international circles today.  This is because all those tribes of people never had a nation with borders that were established and recognized by the international community.

The Kingdom of Hawaii, on the other hand, was an internationally recognized nation, which affords surviving nationals of that nation the rights to reclaim Hawaii's political authority under both international and US Constitutional law.
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drck1000

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2019, 05:59:07 PM »
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mrgaf

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2019, 07:11:02 PM »
Alrighty then! :wtf: :rofl: :sleeping:
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To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2019, 09:00:25 PM »
Quote from: zippz on July 29, 2019, 04:24:18 PM
So I get there's an issue with the US overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom by force.  But I see King Kamehameha essentially do the same thing.  Each island was its own sovereign kingdom, a sovereign nation.  The nations of Oahu, Kauai, and Maui.  Was King Kamehameha a unifier or did he illegally overthrow the other kingdoms by force?

Yes I know Kauai surrendered, but it was still through the threatened use of force.

I presented that argument to a couple of Hawaiian rights activists and both times there reply was the it was different because Kamehameha was a Hawaiian and taking over other Hawaiians. Pretty much admitting racism right there but nonetheless they never had a real answer. Only other thing they say is that when the Hawaiian Kingdom was overthrown it was a modern independent nation, not just some tribe on an island. 

But absolutely Kamehameha slaughtered thousands "uniting" aka overthrowing the other kingdoms. They even sacrificed another king who came in peace. I think only one king of one of the islands was able to peacefully surrender. It was Kauai IIRC.
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ren

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2019, 10:02:20 PM »
racists
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Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2019, 02:33:32 AM »
"Hawaiian" is the new "Sovereign Citizen".


"I DO NOT CONSENT!"   :geekdanc:
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2019, 08:08:33 AM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on July 30, 2019, 02:33:32 AM
"Hawaiian" is the new "Sovereign Citizen".


"I DO NOT CONSENT!"   :geekdanc:

you are a waycist
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Deeds Not Words

mrgaf

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2019, 08:39:41 AM »
You will be assimilated, resistance is futile.... 8)
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To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

changemyoil66

Re: Hawaiian sovereignty
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2019, 09:19:29 AM »
I never paid much attention to the subject, but if Hawaii was conquered back in the days, then wouldn't it not matter if the overthrow was illegal or not.  Seems more like a conquer by force.

Like how if during WWII, Germany invaded (illegal) many countries and conquered them.  Had they won the war, then the Germans would have control over all those countries.

*Edit
Basically the Hawaiians lost and have to accept it or start a war with the USA to get their land back.
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